RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kilkenny => Topic started by: Bluemoonbaz on Thursday 02 August 18 19:19 BST (UK)
-
Hello everyone I posted as a newbie and received amazing help and from this found a link to Ireland 😁 buzzing .
William Yates married Catharine mcdonnell and her mother said she was from County Kilkenny
She married twice in england to
William mc donnell and later to Bryan Barlow .
From the wedding certicate I gleaned her father was Daniel Ryan
It was suggested I move this part of my initial search to here as it's a more specialised search
Initial search with information that may help
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=796820.0
New to all this so apologies in advance ,if haven't posted correctly.
-
Relevant posts about Catherine Ryan/McDonald/Barlow on the other thread are:
Page 3, reply #18. 1881 census Catherine Barlow, age 59, widow, hawker, born Kilkenny, Ireland in household of her son-in-law, William Yates (40), pork butcher.
Page 3, reply #22. Census 1861 & 1871 Catherine Barlow. Birthplace Ireland on both.
Page 6, replies 51 & 53 and page 9, reply 78. Marriage information.
Edit. Catherine & William McDonnell's daughter was also Catherine. She married William Yates.
-
Age of Catherine Ryan/McDonnell/Barlow on official records:
1840 marriage - minor. ( A minor was a person under 21. Minimum age of marriage for a girl was 12.)
1841 census - age 20. (1841 Census enumerators were instructed to round down ages of adults and anyone over 15 to nearest multiple of 5. Not all did. A person whose age in 1841 census enumerator's book was 20 may have been aged 20-24. Catherine's husband, William also had his age recorded as 20. William stated his age as 21 or over at his marriage the previous year. Census was in July 1841.)
1852 2nd marriage - age 39. Her spouse, Bryan Barlow also stated his age as 39.
1861 census - age 40
1871 census - age 47
1881 census - age 59
Each census after 1841 was taken in March or April.
Are you sure of ages on marriage certificate for Catherine's marriage to Bryan Barlow? If she was a minor at her 1st marriage she would more likely to have been in her early 30s at 2nd marriage.
She may not have known her exact age.
-
Here are the details for the marriage
-
Definitely says both 39. Yet Bryan and Catherine admitted to only 40 on 1861 census. ???
Who witnessed that wedding? Could they have been relatives?
-
Definitely says both 39. Yet Bryan and Catherine admitted to only 40 on 1861 census. ???
Who witnessed that wedding? Could they have been relatives?
-
Witnesses. Ann Ca_ _ _ (Caier?); Patrick Traynor.
-
Ann Cain?
-
Ann Cain?
Quite possibly. Which as she couldn't write, may have been Kane or Keane in other written records.
I wasn't sure if the last letter was r. I thought the name might have been something like Caher/Cahir.
The witnesses might have been just friends, neighbours or workmates.
I still think their ages were wrong.
-
Age of Catherine Ryan/McDonnell/Barlow on official records:
1840 marriage - minor. ( A minor was a person under 21. Minimum age of marriage for a girl was 12.)
1841 census - age 20. (1841 Census enumerators were instructed to round down ages of adults and anyone over 15 to nearest multiple of 5. Not all did. A person whose age in 1841 census enumerator's book was 20 may have been aged 20-24. Catherine's husband, William also had his age recorded as 20. William stated his age as 21 or over at his marriage the previous year. Census was in July 1841.)
1852 2nd marriage - age 39. Her spouse, Bryan Barlow also stated his age as 39.
1861 census - age 40
1871 census - age 47
1881 census - age 59
Each census after 1841 was taken in March or April.
Are you sure of ages on marriage certificate for Catherine's marriage to Bryan Barlow? If she was a minor at her 1st marriage she would more likely to have been in her early 30s at 2nd marriage.
She may not have known her exact age.
I haven't looked at this thread before ( I have no knowledge at all of Irish records) but I have been trying to help out elsewhere - I have come to exactly the same conclusion - for some reason the ages at marriage have been increased by 10 years :o
-
Have you looked at the Ryan family who were on Bennet St. on 1841 census when Catherine and her husband were also there? If you think this was or may have been Catherine's birth family, follow it through each subsequent census in the hope that one person may have been specific about their place of birth in Ireland. At present all you have is a county.
-
With the exception of the 1851 census - said to be born in Scotland - and the 1881 census - born in Kilkenny - all other census entries are "Ireland" :-X
-
I haven't looked at this thread before ( I have no knowledge at all of Irish records) but I have been trying to help out elsewhere - I have come to exactly the same conclusion - for some reason the ages at marriage have been increased by 10 years :o
Maybe priest who was hard of hearing or a registrar unfamiliar with Irish accent. Or simple clerical error. Even if Catherine or Bryan had noticed they might not have questioned an authority figure.
Did Bryan or Catherine sign the register? Was Bryan Irish as well? With Bryan as his name I expect at least one of his parents was Irish.
My concentration on Catherine's ages is an effort to work out a likely span of years for her birth. Age at her 2nd marriage seems to be out of sync with other records.
I know from the other thread that Catherine wasn't positively identified on 1851 census. Do you have Bryan on 1851 census in order to see what age he was then? He was apparently 40 on 1861 census.
-
With the exception of the 1851 census - said to be born in Scotland - and the 1881 census - born in Kilkenny - all other census entries are "Ireland" :-X
I doubt that 1851 census is the right William & Catherine McDonnell/McDonald. P.o.b. for both conflicts with 1841. 1841 has Ireland for both of them. 1851 has Middlesex for William and Scotland for Catherine. Similarities were William's occupation and daughter Catherine. We don't know if William was alive in 1851.
I'm hoping that other Irish-born members of Catherine's Ryan family might have given more information about p.o.b.
-
Have you looked at the Ryan family who were on Bennet St. on 1841 census when Catherine and her husband were also there? If you think this was or may have been Catherine's birth family, follow it through each subsequent census in the hope that one person may have been specific about their place of birth in Ireland. At present all you have is a county.
This was mentioned in the other thread and looks very likely doesn’t it?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQLZ-PDJ
-
1851 2230 pg 38 - damaged
David Ryan 63 yrs
Catherine Ryan 60 yrs
James Ryan 22 yrs
Bennett Street - address has been overwritten and is probably ‘under’
1871 4047/104/9
Catherine and Valentine are at 68 Bennett Street and James and family are living in the Cellar.
-
1851 2230 pg 38 - damaged
David Ryan 63 yrs
Catherine Ryan 60 yrs
James Ryan 22 yrs
Bennett Street - address has been overwritten and is probably ‘under’
1871 4047/104/9
Catherine and Valentine are at 68 Bennett Street and James and family are living in the Cellar.
Do you think David was Daniel?
Valentine Ryan, now that's a name I like. Romantic parents, or named for someone?
A Valentine Ryan of right age was in Yorkshire at 1851 census.
So far nobody is divulging a specific birthplace.
-
As Valentine is an unusual name, and judging by his age and ages of his parents he may have been one of the older sons and perhaps called after a grandfather, I checked Griffiths' Valuation for a Valentine Ryan in Co. Kilkenny. There were 2.
1. Union: Waterford; Parish: Killahy; Townland: Inchacarran; Place: Inchacarran.
2. Union: Thomastown; Parish: Graiguenamanagh; Townland: Graiguenamanagh; Place: Douske Lane, South of High St.
These people may have no connection to the Ryan family in Manchester but should be noted as being of interest.
Griffiths' Valuation was a survey of property holdings in Ireland. It was undertaken in the 1850s, a few years after the Great Famine. There are lists of property holders in each townland with accompanying maps. Griffiths' Valuation is free to look at. Ryan entries in Kilkenny on Griffiths number approx. 2,500.
"Union", "Parish" and "Townland" are units within a county. A townland is not the same as a town. Smallest unit is townland. They vary in size. (If your ancestor put name of townland on census you've got a head start.) A parish in context of Griffiths Valuation means civil parish. A Union was a group of parishes. Unions were set up in Ireland to administer the Poor Law, introduced to the country 1838. Unions were later used in organisation of civil registration of births, marriages and deaths.
(This is 2nd time I've typed this. I clicked on wrong thing and wiped 1st go.)
-
Griffith's Valuation is on Ask about Ireland website. www.askaboutireland.ie
-
Graiguenamanagh is a town or village near the border with County Carlow. It's the site of an abbey. The other townland, Inchacarran consists of 118 acres. Irish acres are bigger than English acres.
Tithe Applotments (c1827) show a Daniel Ryan in Graiguenamanagh parish. There were 3 other Daniel Ryan entries in 2 other parishes. No Valentine Ryan listed for Kilkenny.
Tithe Applotments recorded only people who held property which was worth enough for them to be assessed for tithes. A tithe was a local tax, formerly paid in kind (e.g. grain), later converted to monetary value. Most Irish people didn't hold enough property of sufficient value to pay tithes. So names in Tithe Applotment books are only a small proportion of the population.
-
The Valentine Ryan baptised 1805 in parish of Owning & Templeorum, Diocese of Ossary had parents John & Margaret. Abode was Loughreagh. (National Library of Ireland Catholic parish registers collection) His was the only Valentine Ryan baptism I found 5 years either side of 1811, y.o.b. of the Manchester Valentine.
There were 30+ baptisms of Catherine Ryan in Co. Kilkenny 5 years either side of 1820. It could be any or none of them.
If I've identified the correct R.C. parish for Graiguenamanagh then baptism registers date from 1818. Unfortunately earliest volume on NLI site begins 1838. Marriages register is from 1818. R.C. parishes are not always same as civil parishes. R.C. parishes often have several names.
I know a bit more about Kilkenny geography than I did yesterday but still not much. Depending on where in the county the Ryan family lived, they may have used a church in a neighbouring county.
-
Do you have Bryan on 1851 census in order to see what age he was then? He was apparently 40 on 1861 census.
There is a Bryan Barlow, Brazier, aged 20, born Ireland, lodging in Liverpool. HO107/2178 folio 296, page 81.
-
1851 2230 pg 38 - damaged
David Ryan 63 yrs
Catherine Ryan 60 yrs
James Ryan 22 yrs
Bennett Street - address has been overwritten and is probably ‘under’
1871 4047/104/9
Catherine and Valentine are at 68 Bennett Street and James and family are living in the Cellar.
Do you think David was Daniel?
Valentine Ryan, now that's a name I like. Romantic parents, or named for someone?
A Valentine Ryan of right age was in Yorkshire at 1851 census.
So far nobody is divulging a specific birthplace.
Yes I do - Same family and same address.
In 1871 Catherine Barlow and son William are at 66 Bennett Street also - and 1861
I can’t find a birth for William Barlow ???
-
1841 and 1851 show 2 Valentine Ryans born Ireland. One is 1806 and one in 1811 (the one in Manchester).
Daniel Ryan is 50 yrs in 1841
David Ryan is 63 yrs in 1851
There is a death in Manchester 1858 for a Daniel Ryan 64 yrs -district is St George which matches census. Perhaps it is the same one and perhaps, Catherine’s father.
-
1851 2230 pg 38 - damaged
David Ryan 63 yrs
Catherine Ryan 60 yrs
James Ryan 22 yrs
Bennett Street - address has been overwritten and is probably ‘under’
1871 4047/104/9
Catherine and Valentine are at 68 Bennett Street and James and family are living in the Cellar.
Do you think David was Daniel?
Valentine Ryan, now that's a name I like. Romantic parents, or named for someone?
A Valentine Ryan of right age was in Yorkshire at 1851 census.
So far nobody is divulging a specific birthplace.
1861 2956/53/7
68 Bennett Street
Catherine Bryan 68 yrs b Ireland
Valentine 44 yrs
Plus son James and family
-
1871 James, Mary Ann and family are resident in the "Cellar" of 68 Bennett Street, with Catherine and Valentine living above them.
However, I think that bluemoonbaz already has this information. :)
-
Yes received these english census records
But large to load files , but yes that appears to be correct , sorry for not keeping up its all very new to me and trying to process all this unbelievably detailed help..thanks everyone it's very much appreciated.
I guess the Valentine name helps in locating the family? as it unusually
-
We seem to have diverted back to England, unfortunately, and Bluemoonbaz has all this information. Plus I've just discovered that son James married Mary Ann Phillips in Manchester in 1853 - they are shown as living at 68 Bennett Street with Catherine in 1861 and 1871 with their family.
In order not to waste people's precious time, perhaps concentration on the Irish side is the way to go. :)
Sorry, I don't mean to be rude to anyone. :-*
-
You are not being rude at all and are right to point out that we have strayed from Kilkenny. :)
Soryy, but I did not see on the other thread, that information which I have posted on here.If I am repeating this I must have missed it and apologise again.
The Ryan family in Manchester were pointed out by Maureen but was not followed up.
My attempts here are to show that Daniel Ryan was in Manchester too at least from 1841 onwards and likely before as Catherine is already married by then and that as the family are living side by side, that it is very probable that it is Catherine’s family.
By going through English censuses, there is only the one birthplace from all the family which gives Kilkenny. The other thread was more about the Yates family etc so I don’t think this is a waste of time but perhaps others do. :(
Unfortunately, try as we have, there are no Kilkenny records which would definitely match up. There are a few Valentine Ryans and a couple of births with parents Daniel Ryan and Catherine but not this family names.
Added
I am not being rude either :) just explaining my attempts to help.
-
Just wtd to thank you for all your amazing help.
I am new to all this and from knowing one gp in name only 😒 never met anyone .
Roots members are taking me back generations and in all different trails .
Iam trying to keep up with your help..
A roots member has helped sending me cencus records via email 👌 and iam reading through them but you are all quicker than me .
Sorry for not keeping up .and not understanding what it all means in family terms
Your help is amazing and very very much appreciated, I hope you will all continue to assit me
Best regards
Barry
-
It’s a pleasure, Barry :) As you can see we often get carried away.
Good luck with your research. Unfortunately, we didn’t get anywhere in Kilkenny but perhaps there is something out there.
Regards
Heywood
-
Just a little addition to this thread, and possibly NOT in Kilkenny. :-\
There are a few trees on Ancestry where it is THOUGHT that Catherine's maiden name was LINERGAN and that she was born in Ballalooby, Tipperary in 1787. There are no supporting documents given for these assumptions.
Without supporting evidence, it is believed that Daniel Ryan and Catherine's first child was Valentine, born 1811 - again no evidence other than English census entries, which only state that Valentine was born in Ireland, along with John in 1823 and James in 1828.
-
Hi BumbleB,
Yes I saw that too but as you say no evidence, sadly. It also shows Daniel living in London in 1881 and the Valentine in Sheffield.
It is Catherine though who gives Kilkenny as p.o.b. :-\
Heywood
-
Yes, I know, but I thought it might have some credibility (although not a lot) :'( AND I hadn't spotted the 1881 entry for Daniel in London. :-X
-
It’s difficult isn’t it because I always think there must be some reason why the tree person believes that - perhaps Catherine Linergan is mentioned somewhere in records.
-
Very difficult ;) AND we don't know who came up with the first idea, and then who followed who :-\
I just thought that if I mentioned it on the thread, then someone might be able to verify/refute the concept.
I openly admit that I have no knowledge whatsoever of Irish records :o
-
Just a little addition to this thread, and possibly NOT in Kilkenny. :-\
There are a few trees on Ancestry where it is THOUGHT that Catherine's maiden name was LINERGAN and that she was born in Ballalooby, Tipperary in 1787. There are no supporting documents given for these assumptions.
So has anyone looked at those Registers for her Marriage?
-
Just a little addition to this thread, and possibly NOT in Kilkenny. :-\
There are a few trees on Ancestry where it is THOUGHT that Catherine's maiden name was LINERGAN and that she was born in Ballalooby, Tipperary in 1787. There are no supporting documents given for these assumptions.
So has anyone looked at those Registers for her Marriage?
Yes :)
-
I have just looked at RootsIreland, Kilkenny but without subscription it is nigh impossible to know if you have the right people.
http://kilkenny.rootsireland.ie/index.php
One would think that Valentine would be the easiest to search for but there are a few with that name- possibly related but who knows.
-
You are not being rude at all and are right to point out that we have strayed from Kilkenny. :)
Soryy, but I did not see on the other thread, that information which I have posted on here.If I am repeating this I must have missed it and apologise again.
The Ryan family in Manchester were pointed out by Maureen but was not followed up.
My attempts here are to show that Daniel Ryan was in Manchester too at least from 1841 onwards and likely before as Catherine is already married by then and that as the family are living side by side, that it is very probable that it is Catherine’s family.
By going through English censuses, there is only the one birthplace from all the family which gives Kilkenny. The other thread was more about the Yates family etc so I don’t think this is a waste of time but perhaps others do. :(
Unfortunately, try as we have, there are no Kilkenny records which would definitely match up. There are a few Valentine Ryans and a couple of births with parents Daniel Ryan and Catherine but not this family names.
Added
I am not being rude either :) just explaining my attempts to help.
This has been my strategy too, as the only definite piece of information we have re Catherine Ryan's origin in Ireland is Kilkenny on one census. Poking about in the Ryan family in Manchester is preferable to poking Ryan haystacks in Kilkenny, although I've had a go at the latter. Without name of a parish, town, village or preferably townland in Kilkenny it is needle-in-haystack. :) :)Existence of parish registers from the time of Catherine's birth is patchy, surviving ones have gaps, some entries and whole pages are hard to read or illegible. There may have been more than one Daniel Ryan who had a daughter Catherine in Kilkenny in those years. We need to build a picture of the Ryan family in Manchester.
Some Irish people in Britain gave more detail re p.o.b. in a later census. The most helpful is townland. Some put nearest town or post-town. The Ryan family have not been forthcoming in this respect.
Visitors or lodgers from Ireland on a census sometimes provide a clue to origin of family. Some were relatives or neighbours from home. It was common for these to come over as seasonal workers.
-
I guess the Valentine name helps in locating the family? as it unusually
Possibly yes, possibly no. There were a few of that name. The only baptism I found wasn't Catherine's brother; father's name was different.
-
I should have asked this earlier on. Do you know what religious denomination Catherine Ryan was?
-
I should have asked this earlier on. Do you know what religious denomination Catherine Ryan was?
Hi
On the marriage certificate I bought as requested between Catherine and Bryan Barlow
It was in the Catholic church I could send a copy via email as I don't know how to load here , says to big
-
I should have asked this earlier on. Do you know what religious denomination Catherine Ryan was?
Hi
On the marriage certificate I bought as requested between Catherine and Bryan Barlow
It was in the Catholic church I could send a copy via email as I don't know how to load here , says to big
Name of church?
-
Sorry was trying cut it down
St Patrick's chapel
Looks like livsey st manchester
-
St. Patrick's, Livesey St., Collyhurst, Manchester.
I remember now that you put the church name on the other thread.
-
First marriage
-
Hate to add this, BUT :o
Catherine's first marriage (as Catherine Ryan), to William McDonald - 27 January 1840 - was at Manchester Cathedral (C of E).
William McDonald (x)- full age, bachelor, Blacksmith. Father: Edward, Footman
Catherine Ryan (x) - minor, spinster. Father: Daniel, Labourer
(Shame we haven't got a "banging head" emoticon :-X ) ;D
-
Hate to add this, BUT :o
Catherine's first marriage (as Catherine Ryan), to William McDonald - 27 January 1840 - was at Manchester Cathedral (C of E).
William McDonald (x)- full age, bachelor, Blacksmith. Father: Edward, Footman
Catherine Ryan (x) - minor, spinster. Father: Daniel, Labourer
(Shame we haven't got a "banging head" emoticon :-X ) ;D
That marriage was posted on the other thread.
Some Catholics continued to marry in Anglican churches even after they were allowed to marry in their own. This wedding was only 3 years after marrying in a Catholic and Non-Conformist church was made legal. 2 of my R.C. ancestors married in C. of E. parish church in 1843. The bride was from a poor family. One suggested reason was cost. A wedding in a Catholic church required presence of a registrar so there would have been an extra fee.
Manchester Cathedral used to marry multiple couples in a single ceremony. Then there was the fact that it was a collegiate church and different rules applied re banns. Marrying there was cheap, quick and simple.
It's possible that one or both of Catherine Ryan's were "mixed marriages". Just another of the "known unknowns".
It emphasises the need to build a detailed picture of Catherine Ryan and her families in Manchester before trying to look for her in Ireland. Shortcomings in availability of English Catholic records don't help.
-
A bit more here re fees
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Manchester/cathedral/index.html
-
Found another example of parishioners of St. Patrick's Collyhurst marrying at Manchester Cathedral in 1850s, in course of another enquiry on here. A marriage at Manchester Cathedral in 19thC appears not to be an indicator of religious denomination.
The Catholic Church recognised such marriages. The requirement for a Catholic to marry before their bishop, parish priest or his deputy came into force worldwide in 1908 (Ne Temere Papal decree 1907). At earlier times validity was not dependent on this condition.
The decree Tametsi, issued by the Council of Trent in 1563, which sought to control the marriage process by laying down strict conditions, was never proclaimed worldwide, and had no effect in England or Scotland, among other countries.
An 18thC Pope issued a decree stating that the Catholic Church recognised marriages carried out according to the law of each country.
Catholic hierarchy was restored in England 1850. Until then there was no central chain-of-command. There was a shortage of priests and a booming Catholic population in cities in 1st half of 19thC. Overworked priests may not have minded off-loading a few marriages to C. of E.
2nd marriage of one of my Catholic GGGFs in 1879 wasn't in a Catholic church. The widow he married (in a hurry, to take care of his 7 children) wasn't R.C. GGGF's cousin was high up in the Catholic hierarchy at the time.
Marriage of a Catholic in an Anglican church in 19thC doesn't have the same significance as a Catholic marrying in C. of E. in early 20thC (after 1908).
-
Still trying to link or more to the point find anything .
A lovley member sent me this which may or not add to the finds.
1861 68 Bennett Street - Catherine, Valentine, James (unmarried), Marion (married), Ann and Daniel.
I checked the GRO entries and Ann and Daniel have mother's maiden name of Philips.
1871 68 Bennett Street - Catherine and Valentine. In the cellar of 68 Bennett Street we have James, Mary Ann, Ann, Daniel, William, James and Margaret.
There is a marriage in Manchester - 1853 - James Ryan and Mary Ann Phillips. It was a "Register Office or Registrar Attended" entry,
-
All that information is in this thread already :)
-
All that information is in this thread already :)
🙄oops sorry , my mistake , I was evaluating and thought I had missed this
so much help and support from you all .
Well back to the search
-
It is a week or so since some of the info was posted and I think by gathering it together you can get a picture of the family that is likely to be your family in Manchester.
In reply #28, I said that Daniel Ryan was likely in Manchester before 1841 etc.
-
It is a week or so since some of the info was posted and I think by gathering it together you can get a picture of the family that is likely to be your family in Manchester.
In reply #28, I said that Daniel Ryan was likely in Manchester before 1841 etc.
That's a good idea. It's sensible to take a break and look at what you've got so far. Evaluate each piece of information.
There was harvest failure and distress in Ireland in 1830s, prompting Irish people to look for work in England.
-
Thanks everyone, I have taken your advise and spent time trying to see what we have found.
And more to the point how you piece each person to the family , I am seeing how it works ie Catherine Ryan married William mc donald and then Bryan Barlow with 2 children who were then living with one of them in a later census so it all links.
I cannot though work out how you got from Catherine Ryan/father Daniel ryan to the family the excellent roots members linked it to.
What was your thought process and what other factors are taken in to li k the family ? As we don't have any certificates other than the marriage ones of Catharine Ryan.what made the link , so I can understand how I do this in future searches .
Obviously I don't know cath mmn although a few on ancestry have Daniel with James and Valentine and the mother as
Catherine Linergan ryan
Massive thanks for everyone's help it's been amazing
-
Hello again,
I haven’t read back over the two threads but I think the basis of the link is explained and I think it is with regard to Bennett Street where the Ryans are living and the address is given on a marriage certificate. We know that the two marriages show father as Daniel.
This is really putting the details together as a likely scenario rather than definite.
Again, I don’t think there is real evidence re Catherine Linergan. There is one, for example, which has USA ‘evidence’ for a son James who is not connected to the Manchester family.
I would advise reading through the two threads re the Ryans and the censuses.
If you do need further clarification, please come back.
I must add, that is my memory of finding the connections, others may come back with a better reason. ;)
Heywood
-
I agree with everything Heywood had said in reply #53.
Go back over the other thread where you began.
Follow 1 direct line at a time backwards from your GF and read each post which relates to that line only. Print off the pages if it helps so that you can write comments or questions and put ticks/crosses/ question-marks/asterisks on them. Take notes. Don't be distracted by other lines. Consider the evidence and sources for each conclusion. Note down sources for each piece of information which has been verified and databases where each source was located. These sources may include parish registers, BMD indexes, BMD certificates, census and others. Consider why we were/are unsure of, or rejected some evidence. Some of this unproved evidence you will want to keep on a "possible" list. Some findings were later proved not to fit and can be eliminated from your quest. (However, some people like to keep a separate list of rejected stuff with a comment explaining why it was rejected so as not to waste time if those things pop up again in future.) Familiarise yourself with each database a person took information from. Each has pros & cons.
When you've finished following one line and understand all the workings out, return to the beginning i.e. your GF, and carry out the same procedure for another line. When you've worked through that line on the thread, return to the start and do another line and so on. Then you should see how it all fits together.
Your first thread became very complex. I think I researched only the line which led to Catherine Ryan. Other people contributed information about your GF's other ancestors. It's not surprising you were confused at times. It was a lot to take in.
RootsChat is collaborative. 2,3 or more minds are better than 1. Each mind is different. One person may follow a different route to another. They may consult different sources. A person may have particular strengths or knowledge.
We're a bit like a C.I.D. team. We gather clues. We follow evidence to wherever it takes us. We may already have a "suspect" but if there's insufficient evidence we may decide to "release" him/her, "bail" them or put them on a list of "persons of interest". :)
We may also switch from narrow focus to look at "the bigger picture" in the hope of acquiring useful information. Lateral thinking is a good skill. On occasions it's helpful to backtrack in order to progress.
Family history is good for the brain. :)
-
Re Bluemoonbaz reply #56 & heywood reply #57 identifying Ryan family in Manchester.
There are several pieces of evidence to link them - census 1841 onwards, Manchester Cathedral marriage register, marriage certificate.
It's not necessary to have certificates for every life event. Buy only those which are likely to contain missing information, necessary corroboration or will advance your search. Many things can be deduced & ascertained by consulting & comparing various reputable sources, if they exist.
You were lucky that Catherine Ryan's 1st wedding was in Anglican cathedral and the marriage register was viewable. Had both of her weddings been in R.C. churches you would have had to buy both marriage certificates to verify who she was. (All except 1 marriage certificates I've bought have been for weddings in Catholic churches.)
We also used what's known in genealogy as the FAN search tactic. FAN = Family, (or it might be Friends, I can't remember), Associates, Neighbours. I was using the tactic before I knew it had a name and an acronym. It involves looking at people your person was/may have been in contact with and investigating possible links between them. (Detective work again.) Sometimes you get a result as we appear to have done with the Ryan family. As heywood said, we were "putting the details together as a likely scenario rather than definite". Getting to know the neighbours, in this case browsing a census can be revealing. The Ryan family, like many Irish families in Victorian Manchester, had neighbours in the cellar.
Tracing the Ryan family through census returns we noticed that James named a son Daniel after his own father. There were traditional naming patterns which many parents followed and these may be helpful (or may not). It was customary at that time to name 1st son after paternal GF.