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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Wigtownshire => Topic started by: SALONIKA on Friday 03 August 18 12:59 BST (UK)
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Hi I'm hoping someone might be able to help me, I'm looking for the birth record of Susannah Smith born in portpatrick 1834-6 also her marriage to Charles COPELAND who came from northern Ireland I have looked through the English records but can find none they are my great grandparents
thanks JIM
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Hi Jim,
Are this couple living in Great Grimbsy. Lincolnshire by the time of the 1861 Census?
If so (according to Freecen transcription) , Susanna Copeland's birthplace is Ireland.
What makes you think Susanna is born in Portpatrick?
There is a family on 1841 Census at Portpatrick living in what could be a large household with a couple of other families (either that or the transcriber has not been aware of different heads of house) -
Johnston Smith age 32 Mason Ireland
Susan Smith age 29 Wife Ireland
James Smith age 12 Son Ireland
Hugh Smith age 10 Son **
Susan Smith age 6 Dau **
Johnston Smith age 4 Son **
John Smith age 1 Son Wigtownshire
The family obviously have arrived in Scotland during the late 1830s/1840 period. Could this be Susanna Smith and her family, if you believe your Susanna has a Portpatrick connection?
Looby :)
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Freebmd has a Charles Copeland/Coupland marriage in 1859 Lincolnshire to a Thirza/Thyrza Smith
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Hi ,
There is a Susannah Smith born Portpatrick 31st October 1838 christened 3rd November 1838 father Alexander mother Susannah Milroy
Could this be her ?
suzilad
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1851 census has two Smith families with a Susan born at Portpatrick, Wigtownshire.
Susan Smith (67), pauper, Widow,born Ireland with daughter Susan (19) born Portpatrick, sewer of muslin living at Princes St., Stranraer.
Susan Smith (35) wife of seaman, b New Luce. William (15) son, Susan (12) daughter, Hugh (10) son, Alexander (1) son all born Portpatrick. Living at Cock St., Portpatrick.
hmcc
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If Susan was born in Scotland - have you not checked Scotland’s People for a marriage? Why check English marriages unless you have info about the family that is not included in your post
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Family on 1841 census South Crescent Street Portpatrick
Alexander 26 Fisherman born Wigtownshire
Susan 25 wife "
William 5 son "
Susan 2 daughter "
on 1851 census Cock Street Portpatrick
Susan age 35 Fisherman's wife born New Luce
William 15 son born Portpatrick
Susan 12 daughter seamstress Portpatrick
Hugh 10 son scholar Portpatrick
Alexander 1 son Portpatrick
suzilad
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The family I found on 1861 Census at Great Grimsby are living on Cleethorpe Road -
COPELAND Charles Head M 30 Blacksmith Ireland
COPELAND Susanna Wife M 27 Ireland
COPELAND Mary Dau 8 Scholar Lincolnshire - Gt Grimsby
COPELAND Charles Son 4 Scholar Lincolnshire - Gt Grimsby
COPELAND John Thomas Son 2 Scholar Lincolnshire - Gt Grimsby
0f course, I don't know if this is the couple Salonika has posted about. But with the mention of checking English marriage records I thought it feasible that the people he is researching might be in England. The above record is per Freecen transcription.
Looby :)
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Found a birth reg for son Charles 1857 Caistor and GRO online confirms mmn is Smith
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Son James was born 1855 and died 1860
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The family seem to be in the same area up to 1891 census where Susannah has birth place as Portpatrick.
There is a death for Susannah Copeland 1895 (59) Caistor and a death for Charles Copeland 1899 (64) Grimsby. Hope they might be the same people.
hmcc.
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Seems too much of a coincidence for it not to be them. Would help if Jim could confirm the “Lincolnshire” connection
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Hi I'm sorry but I didn't explain myself very well when I posted about my great ggrandparents
yes the family lived in Lincolnshire and they are the family some of the posts are talking about
so thank you for the information you have given me about Susannah,s birth and census results. for port Patrick.it looks like the 1838 baptism could be the one so I will have to look into that
I was hoping to find a marriage between Charles and Susannah in Scotland but it doesn't look as though it happened there so maybe Northern Ireland or even the chance that they never married
so once again thank you for the information you have given me
Jim
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Hi Jim,
I wouldn't rule out Susannah belonging to the Irish family headed by Johnston Smith and living in Portpatrick at the time of the 1841 census which I posted about earlier.
Because, look who is on the 1851 England Census at Great Grimsby - Caistor
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGN2-HCJ
Susan Smith Head F 40 Ireland
Hugh Smith Son M 18 Ireland
Susanna Smith Daughter F 15 Ireland
Johnston Smith Son M 13 Ireland
John Smith Son M 19 Scotland (I wonder if this age is correct / he should be 11 ?)
William Smith Son M 8 Scotland
Thomas Smith Son M 6 Scotland
The father of the children, Johnston Smith, is dead. Susan Smith is recorded as a Stone Mason's Widow. Susanna is a General Servant. Brother Hugh is a stone mason.
This would suggest to me that if there was a marriage between Charles Copeland and Susanna Smith it would most likely be in Lincolnshire.
Looby :)
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Reply removed - not same person
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Family Search has 1851 census for a Charles Copland (24) single, mason's labourer. He is a lodger with McCutcheon family (from Ireland) at Caistor, Great Grimsby. Two of the youngest McCutcheon children were born in Scotland (aged 10 and 8 in 1851).
hmcc
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There is a Susannah Smith marriage in 1851 Caistor but there are an even number of male/females on the page and none of the males is Charles
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Hiya -
I just spotted that Caistor marriage too Carole :o
Looby
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There is a Susannah Smith marriage in 1851 Caistor but there are an even number of male/females on the page and none of the males is Charles
I think this is a different Susannah Smith - this one looks to have married John Cawcutt . They are on 1861 Census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M715-K3H
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The 1881 census shows Charles b County Down and Susannah b Port Patrick Scotland
1871 shows both b Ireland
Jim - which of the children are you descended from?
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Hi Looby
that's got me thinking now I think I'm going to have a look at the census again
I think i'll sleep on it
Thanks JIM
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With regards to Susannah Smith and her father being Johnston Smith there are three births in Portpatrick. All on SP.
John Smith b8/9/1839, mother Susan Gaw. Father Johnston Smith.
William Smith b13/3/1842, mother Susannah Gaa. Father Johnston Smith.
Thomas Smith b 29/9/1844, mother Susan Gaa. Father Johnston Smith.
hmcc.
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Hi Looby
The more I look at the family you sent me the more it looks likely to be them I was definitely going in the wrong direction looking for a Scottish marriage and it does seem Susan was born in Ireland . Do you think this is the family?
Jim
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Hi Jim,
I cannot say for absolute certain that the Susan Smith - daughter of Johnston Smith - living in Portpatrick in 1841 is the woman who marries Charles Copeland.
However it does look like that family has came over to Wigtownshire from Ireland in the late 1830s and settled for a while in Portpatrick. And then the family has moved at some tome after 1841 Census and settled in Caistor, Great Grimsby , Lincolnshire either before or after Johnston Smith's death (1851 Census)
The young woman with Charles Copeland , Susannah Copeland, is recorded on 1861 & 1871 with a birth place of Ireland. Then in 1881&1891 she has birthplace Portpatrick ??? Why she would change from one to the other, I don't know ::) People do not always answer truthfully, or their memories play up or someone else unwittingly provides the wrong information to the Enumerator.
But taking all that on board, I would be inclined to think that Susan/Susannah Smith daughter of Johnston Smith and ( thanks to hmcc) Susan Gaw/Gaa was the woman who becomes Susannah Copeland. I just wonder if they were married? If they were I would imagine it was in Lincolnshire.
Looby :)
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Hi Jim,
Never leaving a stone unturned ;D, I had a rootle about and found this marriage registration
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:264V-3ZW
June 1852 Charles Coupland marriage registered at Sculcoates , Yorkshire.
According to Familysearch he probably married either a Sarah Coy or Susannah Smith (the other names on the page)
Bearing in mind that Charles and Susannah Copeland have an 8 year old daughter on 1861 Census , and that that they are single on 1851 Census it would not be unreasonable to expect a marriage circa 1852/53. Sculcoates is across the River Humber from Lincolnshire. About 28 miles today (with a bridge , of course ;D )......but could the couple have for some reason married there ?
Maybe worth investigating?
Looby :)
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There is a death for a Johnston Smith 1848 at Scarborough, if it's the right one it puts the Smith family in Yorkshire.
hmcc.
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Looks like my man and just looked at ancestry and it gives the same date
Thanks so much
Jim
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Hi looby
I’m sure that’s Charles And Susanna so I’m going to order the cert
Hopefully that’s one of my brick walls knocked down so thank you so much scullcoates is where my grandad was born so it’s the right area
I will let you know when I get the cert through.
Thanks again
jim
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Hi
Just to add I see Susan Gaw (Johnston Smith's wife) has died in Ohio, USA and resided at Cuyahoga, Ohio. This info is from some of the family trees on Ancestry. Good luck with your search.
hmcc.
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Hi looby
I’m sure that’s Charles And Susanna so I’m going to order the cert
Hopefully that’s one of my brick walls knocked down so thank you so much scullcoates is where my grandad was born so it’s the right area
I will let you know when I get the cert through.
Thanks again
jim
Great Jim,
I hope it's them !
Looby :)