RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Carlow => Topic started by: roly on Friday 03 August 18 13:08 BST (UK)
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Having located my half-sister, Brid (daughter of the above) through a chance look at Rootschat of her own, I'm still trying to piece together family history. I'm hoping to find a civil birth certificate for Eleanor Teresa, born to Thomas and Teresa Ducie in 1919 in Carlow. Brid has no such record.
How do I get a certificate - presumably a duplicate?
roly
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
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Birth records less than 100 years old will not appear online- so you would need to order them as hallmark posted-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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You don't say on your profile where you are but.....one can go to any registry office in Ireland in person and get a copy of the Cert!
€4 for photocopy
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Thanks for your interest.
I live in France but am applying for an Irish passport. I'm not sure if a copy of a birth certificate is good enough.
roly
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Neither do I.
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I think you need Parent or Grandparent.... not half sister!
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It's not just a matter of getting a birth certificate. Have a read through this advice-
http://citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
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A Ducie headstone in St Marys cemetery Carlow;
Peter Ducie; March 1957
wife-Annie; April 1965
Daughter; Annie; September 1968
Benjamin Whittaker; killed in France-4/8/1916
John Whittaker; 3/1/1982
his son-Thomas Ducie; 12/7/1990 (65)
his daughter-Molly; 19/12/2002 (89)
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You may be missing a generation
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Carlow/Bridewell_lane/1040545/
marriage 1881 Carlow Thomas Ducey and Teresa Brophy
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11011/8026259.pdf
death 1909 Teresa Ducie wife of Thomas
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1909/05459/4527854.pdf
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Carlow/Carlow_Urban/Bridewell_Lane/310732/
you are probably looking for a child of one of their sons
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Peter married Nellie Brennan 1917
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09738/5533654.pdf
Michael married Bridget Moore 1917 both boys were in the British Army
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09738/5533653.pdf
Michael is in Dover 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW6H-YJ9
possibly Peter
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2691265
1 from 3 for Michael
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2691261
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2691262
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2691260
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Michael, son, indeed, of Thomas and Teresa, was my grandfather and father of Eleanor Teresa (born 16th October 1919). Michael married twice, the second time to Brigid Moore after his first wife, another Teresa, died - not sure when. There were brothers to Michael - Peter, Patrick and James (who emigrated to America) - all the brothers served in the British Army (there was no employment available in Carlow)...all of them received service medals... in addition, my grandfather was gassed and invalided out of the army and hospitalised for a time in Dover.
I have their service records - those that your links, Daithi, refer to.
There were still other children, details of whom are, as yet, not fully traced.
All very well. A history is being assembled. But the necessity for me is to obtain my mother's and my grandfather's birth certificates if at all possible so as to back my own claim to (or wish for) Irish citizenship.
References in civil registers, as I see it, are not enough. The certificates themselves are crucial.
The ways and means, as outlined by correspondents here, and the various governmental websites, indicate that copies of birth certificates may be obtained but fail to say if these copies are sufficient unto the day.
Or, as might be quite likely, I'm missing something or have misread.
roly
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I've been through a citizenship process years ago but suspect it's become more bureaucratic since 9/11 and Brexit. Certainly Ireland has seen a huge amount of applicants coming forward to keep in the EU once Britain voted to leave.
Did you follow through all the appropriate links for the site I posted? this page gives details of doucments- certified copies of passports mentioned and copies & photocopies of civil records.
https://www.dfa.ie/passports-citizenship/citizenship/born-abroad/registering-a-foreign-birth/
Not sure where in France you live but you might want to contact the Irish Embassy there for more detailed advice (although they may just refer you to the above site).
https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/france/
If you think it might be difficult obtaining citizenship you should try renouncing citizenship for another country!
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References in civil registers, as I see it, are not enough. The certificates themselves are crucial.
The ways and means, as outlined by correspondents here, and the various governmental websites, indicate that copies of birth certificates may be obtained but fail to say if these copies are sufficient unto the day.
Or, as might be quite likely, I'm missing something or have misread.
roly
All you need to know was posted in the Link
http://citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
We didn't fail to say if these copies are sufficient unto the day as no one knows how you qualify!
Were you born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was born outside Ireland ??
Was one of your grandparents an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, but neither of your parents was born in Ireland??
Read http://citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
and the Links contained therein E.G. You can use the online tool on the INIS website to check if you are an Irish citizen by birth or decent.
But you will need the €20 Certified Certificate....
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Thanks, Hallmark...As I wrote - I misread or simply didn't follow.
roly
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This has already been posted documenting exactly what you need....
https://www.dfa.ie/passports-citizenship/citizenship/born-abroad/registering-a-foreign-birth/
Grandparent born in Ireland
Documents you must submit with your application:
Your documents:
Original long form civil Birth Certificate (plus photocopy)
Original civil Marriage Certificate (plus photocopy) - Church certificates cannot be accepted
Certified/Notarised copy of the photograph page of current passport or state issued identity document (e.g. Driver's Licence)
If 18 years or over - two separate documents showing proof of residence e.g. phone bill, gas/electricity bill.
If under 18 years – A school report/doctor’s letter showing proof of residence of applicant and two separate proofs of residence for the applying Irish parent.
Your parent’s documents (through whom you’re claiming citizenship)
Original long form civil Birth Certificate (plus photocopy)
Original civil Marriage Certificate (plus photocopy) - Church certificates cannot be accepted
Certified/Notarized copy of the photograph page of current passport or state issued identity document (e.g. Driver's Licence) or original Death Certificate if deceased (plus photocopy)
Your Irish-born grandparent’s details:
Original long form civil Birth Certificate (plus photocopy)
Original civil Marriage Certificate (plus photocopy) - Church certificates cannot be accepted
Certified/Notarized copy of the photograph page of current passport or state issued identity document (e.g. Driver's Licence) or original Death Certificate if deceased (plus photocopy)
Translating your documents
Please submit certified translations of any of the documents (plus a photocopy of each document) listed above if the originals are in a language other than English or Irish.
Further documentation
We may ask you to submit more documents to support your application.
Checklist
When you submit and print your online application form, a checklist of the documents you need will also print out. You need to:
Make sure that you have paid online
Make sure you’ve included all the documents required plus one photocopy of each document on the checklist with your application
Remember…
If you haven’t included all the requested documents, your application may be returned to you.
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Michael's birth 6th July 1888 as Duicey
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02504/1928651.pdf
his wife's a different story ?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09738/5533653.pdf
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A few more details. I got Michael Ducie's marriage the wrong way round. He married Brigid Moore in 1917 in Carlow. Brigid, I believe, died in c. 1924-5, perhaps as a consequencce of complications during the birth of Peter, my half-sister's brother.
Apropos my mother, Eleanor Teresa: she served with BAOR though I don't know the commencement of service nor its cessation. I do have a few details of her service in Berlin - at RAF Gatow, it seems.
She married Louis Sabot in Dusseldrof - I don't yet have a date...Can't raise the GRO Consular Marriage Index. I'm chasing a marriage certificate that the Sabot family has.
Any help gratefully received.
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Things have moved on considerably since my last sally in 2018. I now have a pretty complete picture of my late mother through various certificates; and am in regular contact with my half-sister, Brid (Brigitte in France, where we both live).
Brid and I have compared notes, memories and intuitions and we found that somehow we both had the notion that the Ducies got to Ireland through the expulsion of the Huguenots from France. I'm quite prepared to be disillusioned in this respect.
More specifically, it turns out that my mother spent some time in Kerry and that there were (are?) several Ducie families in the Kingdom.
Then, too, remotely, it appears that Ducies (hardly the humbler folk) moved from France to England along with William the Conqueror and that he settled lands on them in Staffordshire.
Not quite so remotely, a surprise in my own research has been that amongst papers involving my mother's family - British army records, information that James emigrated to the States and so on - there is the odd letter written between the Carlow Ducies and Ducies in Staffordshire. These, in truth, do not amount to much. But can someone enlighten me as to where the Irish Ducies came from - I'd expect there to be complex histories? Perhaps a more definite link can be established beween Carlow and Staffordshire and, likewise, with Ducies in Kerry.
Onwards and, perhaps, sideways.
roly
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I wrote recently but without success in my quest to assemble a Ducie family history. It seems that there are several families Ducie in Co. Kerry and I would like information about their locations. It'd be up to me to see if there's any connection between any of them and my Ducie family who lived in Carlow. I do have some records - the 1901 and 1911 UK censuses that give a time-span for my Ducie family - grandparents and great-grandparents.
A second request is more specific. My mother, Eleanor Teresa, worked as a hospital nurse in Frienaragh, Duagh, Co. Kerry (c. 1938-1939). It'd be handy to know something about the institution. I know that my mother moved to London in 1939.
roly
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I wrote recently but without success in my quest to assemble a Ducie family history. It seems that there are several families Ducie in Co. Kerry and I would like information about their locations. It'd be up to me to see if there's any connection between any of them and my Ducie family who lived in Carlow. I do have some records - the 1901 and 1911 UK censuses that give a time-span for my Ducie family - grandparents and great-grandparents.
A second request is more specific. My mother, Eleanor Teresa, worked as a hospital nurse in Frienaragh, Duagh, Co. Kerry (c. 1938-1939). It'd be handy to know something about the institution. I know that my mother moved to London in 1939.
This will show locations for places in Ireland-
https://www.townlands.ie/
Checking several sites I have failed to find anywhere called "Frienaragh" or anything even close to it in Ireland. What is your source for the placename?
Duagh is in Listowel area and there was a Workhouse there which closed in 1921. I'm not sure when Listowel Hospital was opened.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Listowel/
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I can only say that Frienaragh was the location. Perhaps it was just a house - and, in any case, I did think that the hospital was in Listowel. The workhouse is a new one on me.
Otherwise - pretty quick off the mark and I'll look up the website you gave
Many thanks,
roly
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Apparently there were hospitals in Tralee and Listowel in 1946-
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/rte-documentary-to-tell-story-of-baby-born-after-hospitals-turned-away-dying-unmarried-mum-862904.html
https://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/4613716/4611803/4643315
I can only say that Frienaragh was the location.
I asked for the source- word of mouth, document, written note?
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My birth certificate: hadn't ever seen it - a lot of surprises on it.
roly