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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: rosie67 on Sunday 05 August 18 16:19 BST (UK)
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Good Afternoon Everyone
I hope someone can help me.
My Great Grandfather George Gray was born in Sunderland in 1852. When he married my Gt Grandmother Julia Bennett he was a widow with a son Frederick William Gray born Sunderland 1875.
They married in St Pauls Southwark in 1888. Then went on to live at 33 2nd Avenue Queens Park, Paddington for the rest of their married life.
My Father told me no one spoke of his Grandfather George Gray and there are strangely no photos - there are many of his wife and children but none of him He was a Plumber-Journeyman. He died young at the age of 45 in 1897 Paddinton
I have not really been able to trace back his forbears and his marriage certificate unfortunately has a big line though where the Fathers name would be. Which makes it much more difficult.
A strange thing happened yesterday. I found a marriage certificate for his sons marriage, the son Walter George Blethyn Gray had on his marriage certificate his deceased Fathers name of John George Gray, now on no other documents has he been named as John George Gray. His wife Walters Mother Julia Gray had signed the marriage certificate so I wouldn't have expected an incorrect name for George to be on there.
Since I have added the marriage certificate for Walter Gray I am getting hints for John George Gray on George Grays timeline, who married Jane Hunter in Bishopwearmouth in Sunderland. Plus of course parents for John George Gray.
Also there is a baptism certificate for Frederick William Gray, parents Jane Gray & John George Gray. John George Gray was apparently born 1848 = 4 years before my George Gray. I am at a loss to explain this especially as George Grays marriage certificate definitely has a line through Fathers name. Could this be a mistake ? As I don't have his first wife's name this could be a mistake or could be fact. John George Gray & Jane Hunter married October 1871
Strangely enough we have a lot of photos of my Father visiting relatives in Sunderland in the late 1920's early 1930's which would have been a long journey from Harrow in Middx, my Father remembers going there with his mother and Grandmother indicating there was no family feud or issues as there are a lot of photos of cousins etc (with no names on of course !)
So any help or advice would be very much appreciated, I have been trying to locate the relatives of my Gt Grandfather for so many years now and this may be an opportunity to now do so
Thanks in advance
Rosemary
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GRAY, FREDERICK WILLIAM mmn HUNTER
1875 June Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 780
Marriages Dec qtr 1871
Gray John George
Hunter Jane
Sunderland 10a 824
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1881
RG11/4993 f66 p58
All born Sunderland
John G Gray 33 occ Plumber & Gas Fitter
Jane 35
Fred W 5
ADDED
The marriage to Jane Hunter names his father as William Gray
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXGL-8FJ
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This looks like John's birth registration
GRAY, JOHN GEORGE TINMOUTH
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in SUNDERLAND UNION Volume 24 Page 271
I am assuming this is John with his parents and siblings in the 1851 census living at 28, Silksworth Row, Sunderland, Durham.
Registration district Sunderland
Piece number 2395
Folio 306
Page 8
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May I ask how you arrived at George Gray born c1852?
At what point in your research did you find George and what documents do you have that lead from yourself to George?
The only Paddington death for a George Gray is this one:-
Deaths Jun 1897
Gray George 59 Paddington 1a 38 Gives a birth year of 1838, therefore too old
There is this one:-
Deaths Mar 1897
Gray George 44 Chelsea 1a 234
Gives a birth year of 1853 which is closer to George's suggested birth year.
I take it you don't have a death certificate for George?
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Thanks for your replies. Do I make the assumption then that this "John George" Gray is actually George gray with a different birth date ? It is so strange no Father mentioned on the Marriage certificate for him. Al his other childrens marriages certificate has George Gray, no John at all.??
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What concerns me is the four year gap between George and John George.
Are you able to answer any of the questions I asked in my previous reply #4? I am particularly interested in how you arrived at George from yourself. What is the document trail for that link?
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Hello Girl Guide
His youngest daughter my Godmother was only a few months old when he died and I remember her talking about him but I am going back over 30 years ago now. She spoke of how young she was when he died and she never knew him.
I have his marriage certificate George Gray Widow Plumber . 60 Lorrimore Road. Fathers name & profession is - and rank or profession blank. Age 35 years 20/1/1888 . St Pauls St Mary Newington, Surrey. (Southwark)
I have my Grandmothers his daughters birth certificate. Rose Isabel Gray. born 6/1/1893. Father George Gray A plumber - Journeyman. 33 Second Avenue Queens Park.
His death certificate I do have . Died 16/3/1897 Aged 44 years. A Plumber Journeyman 33 Second Ave Queens Park.
It just seems strange that on one of his childrens marriage certifcates he has a different name and his wife signed as a witness so I am assuming she would have seen it. There were 5 children & Frederick the one from his first marriage.
None of the certificates have John before the George. Just want to be super careful that I am not making assumptions
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Yes girl guide
I was answering when you asked me this question of the 4 years which is nagging at me as well. My Father had his Mothers birth certificate and of course the information was on their and his parents birth certificate same information George Gray Plumber Journeyman
I cannot understand how such a mistake would be made on a marriage certificate. without someone noticing it
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So you are tracing back from Rose Isabel Gray, mmn Bennett, Mar qtr 1893 Chelsea.
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I see the last child of the marriage, Violet, was baptised in 1896:
18 Nov 1896 at Emmanuel Church, Paddington
Violet Muriel Gray, dau of George (plumber) and Julia, of 33 Second Avenue.
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Yes indeed poor Aunty Vi never knew her Father and her husband died within a year of marrying so she was quite an unlucky lady
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Yes AVM 228.
Tracing back from my Grandmother Rose Isabel, and as my Father had the certificates we know they are all correct.
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"My Father told me no one spoke of his Grandfather George Gray and there are strangely no photos - there are many of his wife and children but none of him He was a Plumber-Journeyman. He died young at the age of 45 in 1897 Paddinton"
Could it be not being around a lot of the time to have his photo taken as well as a possibility he didn't like having his photo taken (there's a lot of us who don't like being photographed)? or...
Maybe there were things about him thought/known to relatives when he was on his 'travels' & didn't particularly like what they thought/knew i.e. didn't want him in photos?
Seems there was some reason for him not to have been talked about?
Annie
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So your information at the London end looks pretty secure, and links through the 1891 census to George supposedly b c 1853 Sunderland and from there through Fred’s details to John George and Jane.
I wouldn’t be that worried that he changed a few details for his London life. It is not uncommon to find people used their middle names and/or switched between their names in the 19th century. Also he was a lot older then Julia so may have tweaked his age to reduce the apparent gap in his second marriage.
Have you looked at whether his first wife was definitely deceased? Just in case he had something to hide?
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Hi AVM 228
Well that was the problem finding who the wife was, there seemed to be a lot of Grays in the right area, but since I have added the marriage certificate on Ancestry the hints are pointing me to Jane Hunter as the first wife.
His son Frederick from his first marriage born 1875 indicates that he probably was around 11 when his Father remarried, I would have thought he probably would have known if his Mother had died at that age unless for some reason it was hidden.
Yes interesting thoughts about the photos. My Dad said it was strange that no one had ever talked about him when I was trying to find out information about him , they seemed to be a lively family. All played the piano and sang very well. My Aunt told me they were great to visit you always had a good time
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I see from the 1871 census which was before John George married Jane Hunter, that his occupation is plumber and gas fitter.
The occupation seems to be consistent all through the various documentation that you have.
Have you made any attempt to find a death for Jane?
I see that it looks as though they had a son before Fred:-
GRAY, JOHN WILLIAM HUNTER
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 701
Who unfortunately died:-
GRAY, JOHN WILLIAM 0 Order
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 410
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Yes I noticed the child who died. I have not been able to find a death certificate for Jane although that doesn't mean there isn't one there of course.
It is interesting the family went up there for holidays, I have quite a lot of photos of my Father and Grandmother & Gt Grandmother up there so am sure there was no family issues otherwise it is unlikely they would have made the very long journey. I see also that one of the girls in the photos from sunderland was a bridesmaid at my Grandmothers wedding
Isn't it strange that a marriage certificate of one of his Sons should give me a ead. BUT still doesn't answer the question as to that line on his marriage certificate of his Father - I assumed he was illegitimate
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Hmmm, I wonder......
Could this be Jane's death with her surname incorrectly spelt?
Deaths Sep 1885
GREY Jane 40 Sunderland 10a 283
The gives a birth year of 1845 so about right. What do you think?
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Girl guide my post last night has disappeared in answer to this.
Could well be, how many people have incorrectly spelled Surnames !!! I expect I will have to get the death certificate to see if George is mentioned
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Hmmm, I wonder......
Could this be Jane's death with her surname incorrectly spelt?
Deaths Sep 1885
GREY Jane 40 Sunderland 10a 283
The gives a birth year of 1845 so about right. What do you think?
From familysearch
Jane Grey
Address Hedley Street
Burial Date 02 Sep 1885
Burial Place Durham County
Age 40
Marital Status Unknown
There is a Jane Gray in Hedley Street that would fit in 1881 wife of Edward
RG11/5011 f125 p69 See JenB's next post
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There is a Jane Gray in Hedley Street that would fit in 1881 wife of Edward
RG11/5011 f125 p69
The 1885 burial was of Jane Gray, 14 Back Hedley Street, wife of John Gray, plumber (per Durham Records Online).
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Thank you Jen I will cross it out ;D
I don't know if I have missed this on previous posts - Frederick William Grays baptism
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXCJ-SYC
Frederick William Gray
Residence Bishop-Wearmouth, Durham
Birth Date 06 May 1875
Christening 30 May 1875
Father John George Gray
Mother Jane Gray
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Looks like that death for Jane I found is going to be the right one. If George is the informant then that will clinch it.
You may never discover the reason for the blank space where George's father's name should have gone on his second marriage certificate.
Perhaps George had a bust up with his family and cut them out of his life to the extent of not providing any details of his father. It may be that he just didn't provide the vicar with that information so it had to be left blank. One could speculate forever and anon as to why.
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Looks like that death for Jane I found is going to be the right one.
:-\
See reply #21 - the September 1885 death you mentioned in reply #18 is a different Jane.
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I'm feeling slightly confused Jen.
You say in reply#21 that Jane is the wife of John Gray plumber.
Are we looking at two John Grays, plumbers, with a wife called Jane who are living in the same area?
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My apologies, I am the one who is confused. I'll get my coat :-X
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Hi Jen
The death you mentioned with John Gray informant from the durham records on line , before I purchase this record it is definitely 1885 and John Gray informing of the death ??
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Hi Jen
The death you mentioned with John Gray informant from the durham records on line , before I purchase this record it is definitely 1885 and John Gray informing of the death ??
No, I didn’t say he was the informant.
It is a burial record, from Bishopwearmouth Cemetery, which states that Jane Gray of 14 Back Hedley Street, wife of John Hedley, a plumber, was buried on 2nd September 1885.
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If you wish to know who the informant was you will need to buy the cert.
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Hi Jen
Whoops I misunderstood that, but the wrong name for her husband anyway. Thanks
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Rosie67, read the below carefully again, I've put it in bold for you.
The 1885 burial was of Jane Gray, 14 Back Hedley Street, wife of JOHN GRAY, plumber (per Durham Records Online).
You can get a pdf for £6 from the GRO. If it was me I would be buying the cert if only to eliminate this Jane.
Deaths Sep 1885
GREY Jane 40 Sunderland 10a 283
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It is a burial record, from Bishopwearmouth Cemetery, which states that Jane Gray of 14 Back Hedley Street, wife of John Hedley, a plumber, was buried on 2nd September 1885.
Just for the record, here's the original (courtesy of Family Search) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-494X-H?i=478&cat=825520
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Ah, great Jen - everyone can now see exactly what the original record says.
As I said in my earlier post, if it was me would be buying the death cert to see who is named as the informant.
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Ok Everyone I have ordered the death certificate by pDF file so will update you when I receive it. Fingers crossed it is the right one !!
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Ok Rosie, we shall await events.
At least a pdf is cheaper than a full cert.
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Just been going through the 1871
Jane is with her father West Street
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZ2-LNS
The next page of the census is still West street where a family of Gray's are with a son John G Gray c 1848 who is a plumber/gasfitter
Ties to the family Girl Guide mentioned
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Don't think I explained that very well, just listed them as he is so close by
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Have had a look at the paper
Shields Daily Gazette 07 September 1878
Liquidations by arrangement
John George Gray, 4 Crowtree Road, Sunderland, plumber and gasfitter
details are in The London Gazette
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mhj/
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Hi Willsy
Thanks so much for your input, very interesting about the bankruptcy in the newspaper. I will be very hopeful that the death certificate is the correct one when it arrives.
Thanks everyone
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Well I have received the death certificate pdf file. I am trying to attach it without success at the moment. - I think it may be ok now
Sarah Prior present at the death was the informant. Unfortunately not John George isn't that typical.
Wife of John Grey (with an e not an a) plumber. Why John didn't report his wife's death and Sarah Prior did who knows. It does confirm she was the wife of John
So what do you guys think ??
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I think you can safely say that it is the correct death.
It may be that John wasn't the informant because he was not there when she died. Sarah Prior may have been a neighbour who sat with Jane.
At least you can be sure that John George Gray was definitely a widower when he remarried.
There will always be aspects of family history for which you will never get an explanation. The information is just not there to find.
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Yes I think it must be him. But Sarah was the informant for the death certificate. I still would have expected him to have reported the death. Unless he was somewhere else and couldn't do it
As you say Girl Guide we cannot unfortunately join all the dots. Especially if there is no one left alive who would of known. It would be nice if I can more reasons if any of the Sunderland family may know if I can find anyone who knows up there if I am lucky to make contact with them.
I have found that most family history "stories" that i have been told in the family have been true. But no one knew anything about George unfortunately . I will let you know if I am successful
Now onto finding out about "Millers Wharf" that apparently was owned by one of my Miller relatives right by the Tower of London