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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: collin on Monday 06 August 18 22:41 BST (UK)
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Hi
I e mailed Manchester Register Office with a query in 1856
their reply said, " I can't check for you because records of this age are held by the central library"
I thought it sounded odd as I thought the register offices held on to their registers?
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I e mailed Manchester Register Office with a query in 1856
And they've only just replied? ;D
Seriously though - What kind of a query was it?
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The reply came this morning.
To cut a long story short, three kids in the 1871 census aged 14, 11 and 10, the births registered in Manchester the two boys both in December 1856 but not twins as one is on page 160 and the other on page 181. The 11 year old supposed to be born in Hull 1859 but no registration there only the father's death in 1861. There is a baptism for one in Manchester but not the other two, it's strange. Can the pdf index be wrong?
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Why not give the names/ references and let us have a furtle around ?
Pauline
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I e mailed Manchester Register Office with a query in 1856
And they've only just replied? ;D
Seriously though - What kind of a query was it?
;D ;D ;D
If you can give us more info(names ,dates etc) ,one of us may be able to help.
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It's not for me, a lady in USA paid a genealogist years ago to find her great grandad but couldn't do it because the 1881 census is wrong.
Frank Vernon aged 20 born Hull, son in law of Mary Newton.
I found Mary Newton in 1891 and realised she was his mother so then got them in 1871
Mary Vernon with Isaac 14, Francis 11 and Sarah 10.
He is born Hull in all the census but Isaac & Francis are both in 1856 mother's maiden name Hitchin. I've heard of late registration but not early ones!! Can't understand what's happened here.
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the births registered in Manchester the two boys both in December 1856 but not twins as one is on page 160 and the other on page 181
You cannot have 2 brothers births registered in the same quarter of the same year and they are not twins
Only the 14yr old could have been born in 1856 - you say the others were 11 and 10 so their births would be several years later
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so census, so we can look at that rather than try and interpret your interpretation.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q272-3ZQF (1881)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBFC-DDG (1871)
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Births Dec 1856
Vernon Francis Manchester 8d 181
MMN Hitchin
Births Dec 1856
Vernon Isaac Manchester 8d 160
mmn Hitchin
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1856 baptism for eldest child isaac https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NTTN-YRZ
LancashireBMD also has an 1857 birth registration for Francis Vernon, in Manchester same MMN
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Lancashire BMD
Shows Francis Vernon mmn Hitchin in 1857
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Marriages March 1850
Hitchens Mary Manchester 20 374
Vernon Isaac Manchester 20 374
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You got them! The mother married James Newton in 1873 at Stockport and was widowed again then lived with daughter Sarah Ford who was thought to be the wife of Francis in 1881. Isaac died in 1881 aged 24 and Elizabeth was his widow. There is nothing in Hull for Francis, he married our relative Mary Green in Manchester in 1889.
Thank you for having a look at it, it's got me beaten.
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Deaths March 1861
Vernon Isaac aged 41 Hull 9d 137
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I hadn't seen the 1857 for Francis the GRO has them both in December 1856. There were two elder sons Enoch and Thomas also baptised but none for Francis and Sarah.
I found an newspaper article in Hull Packet in 1858 where the father who was a carter had knocked down a boy who was taken to a bone setter, it says Rulley Accident.
Wonder if he was born in Hull but registered in Manchester?
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then lived with daughter Sarah Ford who was thought to be the wife of Francis in 1881.
Francis was her brother so how could they have married?
Francis was unmarried in 1881 and married in Derbyshire 1890 to either Ann Wragg or Mary Jane Kew
Daughter Sarah was also unmarried in 1881 and married John William Ford in 1882 also in Derbyshire
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The 1881 census had Frank the son in law of Mary and Sarah the daughter making it look as if they were married when they were siblings, that caused the confusion.
Sarah married Ford on January 9 1882 and Frank married Mary Green at Manchester Register Office July 15 1889.
My friend in USA didn't know that Frank had begun life as Francis. There looks to be droves of Vernon's around Chapel en le Frith area. I think she will have to spend a few dollars to solve this one. Thanks to all
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Does Frank give his father as Isaac on his marriage certificate?
Son in law can also mean stepson.
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It looks as though Francis b 1860 is the son of ....
Marriages Mar 1848
COTTRILL Elizabeth Chapel en le F 19 385
VERNON Francis Chapel en le Frith 19 385
Before she died in 1860....
Deaths Dec 1860
Vernon Elizabeth Chapel le f 7b 341
VERNON, FRANCIS mmn COTTRILL
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in CHAPEL EN LE FRITH Volume 07B Page 618
And therefore is indeed the stepson of Mary Vernon in 1861 and 1871
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On the 1889 certificate Frank says his father was Isaac Vernon a warehouseman, but you have to question everything. Mary Green said she was a spinster and married in her maiden name but had been married in 1883 and there's no death for her husband between 1883-89. When I pointed this out things went quiet, but I know it's true because her child is in her parents grave.
Frank Vernon died aged 46 in 1905 their daughter went to Canada in 1912 and Mary & son followed in 1913 and when he offered to marry an older divorced woman in 1918 Mary
was furious and returned to England.
But she wasn't actually divorced as she had married in 1907 and a visitor to their boarding house recognised the groom on their wedding photo as having a wife and family in England, so when exposed he legged it! So Mary was a bit of a hypocrite. She did return after a few years to visit her family but died in England in 1935.
Going back to the start, I would have called in Manchester Register Office and asked them to check the two births but they say the old records are in central library so the only option is to buy the certificate, I thought they kept all the records back to 1837. Thanks to all
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I think you always have to buy civil registration certificates. I don’t think you can get a look up.
The registers are at the library though. See here http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mgy/
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Hi
I e mailed Manchester Register Office with a query in 1856
their reply said, " I can't check for you because records of this age are held by the central library"
I thought it sounded odd as I thought the register offices held on to their registers?
Hi Colin,
The Manchester Register Office are correct in telling you this. The newer registers i.e. approx 1918 to the current date they hold. The older registers (so more than 100 years old ) are located at Archives + (Manchester Central Library) Having said that only Register Office staff (or deputised persons) can access these.
Hope this explains this.
CD
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Thanks for that, I didn't know that you could get a certificate from the library, when I was visiting Oldham, before it moved to Chadderton Town Hall, they would bring the register out of the safe behind the counter and check if it was the right entry
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Thanks for that, I didn't know that you could get a certificate from the library, when I was visiting Oldham, before it moved to Chadderton Town Hall, they would bring the register out of the safe behind the counter and check if it was the right entry
That was the good old days :) The last time I went to Chadderton, the certificate had to be posted out to me, I couldn’t wait and pick it up as before.
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Very true, Elsie Rowson was great, she almost read the certificate out if you were lucky.
I haven't bought a proper certificate since the PDFs started.
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I had an e mail from Manchester Register Office today, they have carried out an investigation in conjunction with Manchester and Lancashire Family History Society.
The 1857 one was wrong they were both born on the same day in 1856 one at home and one in the workhouse to the same parents. The conclusion was that these two are the same child and by registering twice as a way to change the child's name. They think the case so extraordinary that they plan to publish it in the MLFHS magazine.
So it looks like the Francis born in Hull in 1859 went unregistered.
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Sorry the r mail was from the Central Library in Manchester