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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: harfielc on Thursday 09 August 18 16:26 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I have hit a brick wall.
Mark Molloy b. Dublin according to census 1825
Margaret Kell b Tipperary according to census 1830
I can work all evidence back to these 2 via the census, BC and D certificates of kids.
I am looking to get on with the irish links, but have hit a brick wall.
Any help looking for marriage evidence in Ireland or Lancashire would be great as well as how to find records of them coming to England.
Thanks
Caroline
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https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0281 Tipperary PARISH
Other Parishes via Map.
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HI
Oh My.....thank you for this link. I've never heard of this source.
But wow - how hard is it to read?
Is there anywhere on Rootchat where there are people with experience at reading this source?
Many thanks
C
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HI
Oh My.....thank you for this link. I've never heard of this source.
But wow - how hard is it to read?
Is there anywhere on Rootchat where there are people with experience at reading this source?
Many thanks
C
They aren't too bad...you just need to look for the name Kell, you don't need to read every word!
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Great. Txs.
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Hi there,
I have hit a brick wall.
Mark Molloy b. Dublin according to census 1825
Margaret Kell b Tipperary according to census 1830
I can work all evidence back to these 2 via the census, BC and D certificates of kids.
I am looking to get on with the irish links, but have hit a brick wall.
Any help looking for marriage evidence in Ireland or Lancashire would be great as well as how to find records of them coming to England.
Thanks
Caroline
If those children were all theirs they seemed to have moved about a fair bit. Were their reasons for potential moves? E.g. what was his occupation? Did they have relatives in the other places?
You're not likely to find records of them travelling from Ireland to England. Both countries were part of the UK. Going from Ireland to England was the same as going from Scotland to England. Only exception might be if they were beggars or vagrants and were picked up by authorities under vagrancy laws. There are Vagrant Passes in Lancashire Archives up to around early 1830s (Poor Law amendment Act 1834). These Passes are for people travelling through Lancashire on way to Liverpool to return to Ireland. There are none for journeys from Ireland.
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Look for a marriage on:
Lancashire BMD
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
You can also search index for the children's birth registrations on Lancs.BMD. Unfortunately mother's maiden names haven't yet been added to index of this or GRO for a lot of Manchester births. Lancs. BMD shows sub district, so more local than GRO Index.
Lancashire Online Parish Clerks
www.lan-opc.org.uk
This is in 2 parts - lists of churches in each area with transcribed registers for some churches, mostly C. of E., with some R.C. and Non-Conformist; and Ancestor Search section. Search options in Ancestor Search are individual church, place or whole county.
Lancs. BMD and LAN OPC are both volunteer-run sites. They are constantly being added to, so if you don't find something at 1st go, look again in a few weeeks, months, years.
As the people you're researching were in Manchester have you looked at Manchester & Lancashire Family History Society? The Irish group isn't operational at present. The website has a list of churches with dates of registers and locations of microfilm and transcriptions. It also has a list of cemeteries. A M&LFHS project is a searchable index by name of Catholic church registers in Manchester. I don't know churches or years covered or if it's finished. Website has guides to Manchester FH research.
www.mlfhs.org.uk
GEN UKI has information about places including lists of churches with dates and maps. If you know where a person was living at a certain time do a distance search for churches of the relevant religion in the area, check if a church existed at the time, find it on the accompanying map and make a shortlist of churches they may have been baptised or married at. Church info includes whether it has/had a graveyard and when. Google GEN UKI then look up a place. It's another volunteer site. Some places have better coverage than others.
If your ancestors were Catholic take a look at Catholic Family History Society. Catholic FH research in England has particular difficulties. There are some informative articles on this website. Catholic burials in 19thC Manchester for instance.
Edit. I missed off the word "registers" from "A M&LFHS project is a searchable index by name of Catholic church ..." You can enter a surname (+1st name + date if known).
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HI
Oh My.....thank you for this link. I've never heard of this source.
But wow - how hard is it to read?
Is there anywhere on Rootchat where there are people with experience at reading this source?
Many thanks
C
If you come across any bits you can't make out or don't understand you can post a snippet in the deciphering handwriting section. A tip is to try to read a few pages of the register before and after the entry which interests you. That way you will become familiar with the form of entries, priest's handwriting & abbreviations and with the families in the parish; you'll see that the same forenames & surnames crop up frequently. Some Irish Catholic registers are in Latin so you may need help with translation. Some of us do that here too.
There are plenty of pitfalls in Irish research. If you're new to it I advise you to read an introduction to it or you'll be stumbling around in the dark and risk wandering off down the first path you spot.
Try:
National Library of Ireland
www.nli.ie/enfamily-history-introduction.aspx
Irish Genealogy Toolkit
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
There's plenty more advice & info online, including name variations, parish & townlands etc.
I would also advise that you firm up the family structure in England first. Be confident that you have all the children. Naming often followed a traditional pattern. Any long unexplained gaps between births? Find out what you can about the parents when they were in England. Study census. Not just the nuclear family but visitors, lodgers & neighbours. Did the parents have any siblings in England? Any other potential relatives about? Were any more specific about place of origin?
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Why does Frances Kelly b. Whitehaven 1865 have a different surname?
Btw re death of Charles Molloy 1905. Prestwich was a registration district which included some areas in Manchester. Districts changed boundaries several times between 1837 and end of 20thC.
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If you come across any bits you can't make out or don't understand you can post a snippet in the deciphering handwriting section.
From the NLI parish records you can also post a link to the page in question. There is no problem with copyright.
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The Mark Molloy you have born 1852 was the second child of that name. His predecessor died as an infant. Birth and death both registered in St. George sub district.
Birth registration 1849 Molloy, Mark (mother's maiden name not on index)
Death registration 1849 aged 0
(Information from Lancs. BMD)
I couldn't see a birth registration for Mark Molloy, or variation on Molloy for 1852 or 2 years either side on Lancs. BMD or GRO. Where did you get his y.o.b. from?
Have you considered these births? Both in St. George sub district and with mother's maiden name Kell. Both found on Lancs. BMD.
1859 Melloy, Edward
1861 Molloy, Robert Emmet
Kell may be a mistake for Kelly of course. There were several Molloy births registered in St. George sub district with mother's maiden name Kelly. Equally, Kelly could be a mistake for Kell.
I didn't see a birth registration for William 1847 either. Nearest was Melia, sub district Salford Regent Road.
Edit. My 1st sentence should have read "The Mark Molloy you have born 1852 may have been the second child of that name" rather than "was the second child of that name". I was guilty of making assumptions. Unwise, especially as mother's maiden name wasn't on index for that birth. He might have been brother, cousin or no relation at all.
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Baptism: 22 Aug 1852 St Patrick, Collyhurst, Lancashire, England
Mark Molloy - [Child] of Mark Molloy & Margt. (formerly Kell)
Born: 10 Aug 1852
Godparents: Wm. Kell; Anne B. Wilson
Baptised by: H. Keary
Register: Baptisms 1852 - 1867, Page 26, Entry 7
Source: Original Register
his date of birth in case you never had it :)
ADDED DATES OF BIRTHS
Baptism: 14 Jan 1855 St Patrick, Collyhurst, Lancashire, England
Roseannah Molloy - [Child] of Mark Molloy & Margt. (formerly Kell)
Born: Dec 1854
Godparents: Thomas Dalton; Catherine Kell
Parents' Marital Status: conj.
Baptised by: Ed. Can. Cantwell
Register: Baptisms 1852 - 1867, Page 122, Entry 17
Source: Original Register
Baptism: 24 Jul 1859 St Patrick, Collyhurst, Lancashire, England
Edward Molloy - [Child] of Mark Molloy & Margt. (formerly Kale)
Born: 25 Jun 1859
Godparents: James Gaffney; Cath. Howith
Parents' Marital Status: conj.
Baptised by: M. Moriarty
Register: Baptisms 1852 - 1867, Page 182, Entry 3941
Source: Original Register
DID YOU NOTICE Catherine Kell as a godparent - so another Kell to research that may give you more info
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Baptism: 22 Aug 1852 St Patrick, Collyhurst, Lancashire, England
Mark Molloy - [Child] of Mark Molloy & Margt. (formerly Kell)
Born: 10 Aug 1852
Godparents: Wm. Kell; Anne B. Wilson
Baptised by: H. Keary
Register: Baptisms 1852 - 1867, Page 26, Entry 7
Source: Original Register
his date of birth in case you never had it :)
ADDED DATES OF BIRTHS
Baptism: 14 Jan 1855 St Patrick, Collyhurst, Lancashire, England
Roseannah Molloy - [Child] of Mark Molloy & Margt. (formerly Kell)
Born: Dec 1854
Godparents: Thomas Dalton; Catherine Kell
Parents' Marital Status: conj.
Baptised by: Ed. Can. Cantwell
Register: Baptisms 1852 - 1867, Page 122, Entry 17
Source: Original Register
Baptism: 24 Jul 1859 St Patrick, Collyhurst, Lancashire, England
Edward Molloy - [Child] of Mark Molloy & Margt. (formerly Kale)
Born: 25 Jun 1859
Godparents: James Gaffney; Cath. Howith
Parents' Marital Status: conj.
Baptised by: M. Moriarty
Register: Baptisms 1852 - 1867, Page 182, Entry 3941
Source: Original Register
DID YOU NOTICE Catherine Kell as a godparent - so another Kell to research that may give you more info
A Catherine Kell married a William Howarth 1858 at Manchester Cathedral. So the Catherine Howarth, godmother to Edward 1859 was very probably same woman as Rosannah's godmother. Marriage register on LAN OPC only goes up to 1830s at present. It should show Catherine's father's name & occupation. No guarantee Cath was aunt to the child; she may have been a cousin of some degree or great-aunt.
Interestingly that's 2nd example I've seen this week of parishioners of St. Patrick's marrying at the Anglican Cathedral.* Possibly for reasons of cost, speed or convenience. Several couples used to be married in a single ceremony at M/c Cathedral. St. Patrick's, Collyhurst served a massive parish, containing parishioners in the 10s of thousands at one time, because of influx of Irish. It was later split into smaller parishes. Maybe the priests were too busy with all their other duties they couldn't keep up with all the weddings. I think the nuns who ran the school were from Tipperary.
* The other one is an enquiry about Catherine Ryan, who was from Kilkenny, next door to Tipperary. She was a contemporary of Mark Molloy & wife.
Notice that William Kell was a sponsor at Mark's baptism.
It's possible that the other sponsors were relatives.
Not
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you might want to look at this - register for free - some records are free to view - others have a small fee
110 results for William Kell in Lancashire
https://en.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/?size=10&ignore_each_patronyme=&ignore_each_prenom=&type_periode=between&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&nom=kell&ignore_each_patronyme=&prenom=william&prenom_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom=&place__0__=&zonegeo__0__=Lancashire%2C+England%2C+United+Kingdom&country__0__=GBR®ion__0__=ENG&subregion__0__=LAN&place__1__=&zonegeo__1__=&country__1__=®ion__1__=&subregion__1__=&place__2__=&zonegeo__2__=&country__2__=®ion__2__=&subregion__2__=&place__3__=&zonegeo__3__=&country__3__=®ion__3__=&subregion__3__=&place__4__=&zonegeo__4__=&country__4__=®ion__4__=&subregion__4__=&type_periode=between&from=&to=&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&go=1
added
same site has 11 results for Catherine
10 results for Mark Molloy
https://en.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/?exact_day=&exact_month=&exact_year=&ignore_each_patronyme=&ignore_each_prenom=&size=10&type_periode=between&nom=molloy&ignore_each_patronyme=&prenom=mark&prenom_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom=&place__0__=&zonegeo__0__=Lancashire%2C+England%2C+United+Kingdom&country__0__=GBR®ion__0__=ENG&subregion__0__=LAN&place__1__=&zonegeo__1__=&country__1__=®ion__1__=&subregion__1__=&place__2__=&zonegeo__2__=&country__2__=®ion__2__=&subregion__2__=&place__3__=&zonegeo__3__=&country__3__=®ion__3__=&subregion__3__=&place__4__=&zonegeo__4__=&country__4__=®ion__4__=&subregion__4__=&type_periode=between&from=&to=&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&go=1
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Damaged census
1851 2230 page 15
Lees Street Manchester
William Kell 45 yrs ... Pensioner b Wiltshire
Margaret Kell 39 yrs
Samuel Kell 20 yrs b Chatham
Mary Ann Kell 18 yrs b Manchester
Cathrine Kell 15 yrs b Ireland
Wm Kell 13 yrs b Ireland
Thos Kell 10 yrs b Cheshire
Elizth Kell granddaughter 1 yr
William, father of Catherine who married William Howarth was a Band master.
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Marriage
15th November 1852 Manchester Cathedral
Mary Ann Kell and Lawrence Kendrick
Witnesses Mark and Margaret Molloy
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Good finds Heywood.
Are you thinking that William Kell's occupation of bandmaster may tie in with him being a pensioner on 1851 census, possibly a Chelsea Pensioner and therefore a retired soldier?
Following on rapidly from that thought, his son Samuel was born at Chatham about 1831. Chatham, Kent? Naval dockyards? He and/or wife could have been in quarters there when Sam was born. Then it looks like Wm was posted to Ireland for a few years. He may have had a couple of stints in Ireland. Can you tell where Margaret, the wife was born?
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I was thinking Army for William.
Margaret was born in/on an ‘ocean’ which has been transcribed as ‘Irving Ocean’.
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Marriage
15th November 1852 Manchester Cathedral
Mary Ann Kell and Lawrence Kendrick
Witnesses Mark and Margaret Molloy
Just to point out to harfielc, the OP that it's possible to search on LAN OPC for a person of interest as a witness or godparent without having to know names of people whose marriages or baptisms they were attending. Just put your person's name into the boxes marked "other" on Ancestor Search form. I did that for a 5 mile radius of Manchester for Mark Molloy and got a marriage (1860, John McManus, Ardwick) and a baptism (1867 St. Alban, Ancoats). May be different Marks but worth a mention. Using this tactic I've found my ancestors as couples witnessing marriages or being godparents before they married.
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I was thinking Army for William.
Margaret was born in/on an ‘ocean’ which has been transcribed as ‘Irving Ocean’.
;D Was that Margaret, William's wife? She may have been from an army family.
Army bandmaster. Very likely. He might have marched all over Ireland. Samuel might have been born while his mother was waiting to board ship or after she'd come ashore; otherwise he might have been "born at sea" as well.
Some of the children might be in Overseas births which goes back pre Civil Registration 1837. I don't currently have a sub for the source I previously used. Regiment was normally given.
There may be record for William in National Archives. If he applied for a pension while he had dependent children they might be mentioned.
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Sorry, yes mother Margaret.
Daughter Margaret (hopefully she is daughter) was married by then.
All seems to point to a marriage in England but can’t see them yet.
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Re Reply #13 by garstonite.
I thought that one for Mark Molloy & Margaret, St. Catherine, Manchester would be worth investigating. There was a St. Catherine's C of E. Church, Collyhurst. However founding date was 1859. There were other churches in Manchester dedicated to St. Catherine. Was there a St. Catherine district or sub district in Manchester?
Registration districts in England and Wales
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/index.html
It might come in handy.
Edit. St. Catherine isn't among list of Manchester sub districts so I assume it was a church.
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Damaged census
1851 2230 page 15
Lees Street Manchester
William Kell 45 yrs ... Pensioner b Wiltshire
Margaret Kell 39 yrs
Samuel Kell 20 yrs b Chatham
Mary Ann Kell 18 yrs b Manchester
Cathrine Kell 15 yrs b Ireland
Wm Kell 13 yrs b Ireland
Thos Kell 10 yrs b Cheshire
Elizth Kell granddaughter 1 yr
William, father of Catherine who married William Howarth was a Band master.
"Lees" rang a bell. The link for Mark Molloy posted by garstonite in Reply #13 includes Mark Molloy & Margaret, Lees, Ashton-under-Lyne. I looked up Lees. It was in the township of Ashton under Lyne. There's a long road called Lees Road between Ashton-under-Lyne and Manchester.
Edit. Lees St. is near Ashton Old Road.
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William Kell, the son was aged 13 on 1851 census. He was old enough to be a sponsor at the 1852 baptism. A sponsor for a baptism in a Catholic church was supposed to have sufficient understanding (so not a very young child), and have made their First Communion and Confirmation. Ages and order of First Communion and Confirmation varied by era, diocese and even individual parish. William at around age 14 probably met all 3 qualifications. He would have been working, so no longer a child.
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The St Catherine’s reference is to the parish they are living in in 1871.
Lees, Ashton under a Lyne is quite a way from that particular Lees Street.
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Sorry, yes mother Margaret.
Daughter Margaret (hopefully she is daughter) was married by then.
All seems to point to a marriage in England but can’t see them yet.
Looking at the 1851 census again for William Kell I've noticed that Thomas aged 10 was born in Cheshire. Mind you, that might just mean he was born on the Cheshire side of Manchester. His birth would be c1840/41. Daughter Margaret probably still at home then. They might be in Cheshire on 1841 census. On the other hand if William was still in army they could have been anywhere. I've also just noticed granddaughter.
Was Mark Molloy in army at all? Was that why he may have had children born in a few places? That's a question for harfielc.
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The St Catherine’s reference is to the parish they are living in in 1871.
Lees, Ashton under a Lyne is quite a way from that particular Lees Street.
Thank you. My knowledge of Manchester geography is imperfect. There's too much of it. ;D I prefer places I can see the end of.
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Sorry, yes mother Margaret.
Daughter Margaret (hopefully she is daughter) was married by then.
All seems to point to a marriage in England but can’t see them yet.
Searching for a marriage in Tipperary seems pointless at present until all English avenues have been explored.
If Wiliam senior remained in army in 1840s and Margaret was his daughter, she could have met and married Mark Molloy anywhere in Britain, Ireland or overseas.
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Birth registration of Thomas Kell Chester Castle sub district. From Cheshire BMD Births 1837-1839. It didn't specify year or have mother's maiden name on index. www.cheshirebmd.org.uk
The 1 yr old granddaughter on 1851 census may have been Elizabeth Kell registered in St. George sub district, mother's maiden name Kell. Probably child of a daughter.
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A baptism to consider. Thomas Kell, parents William & Rosina, June 1839 at St. Mary's Church, Chester. (Family Search) Possibly baptism of the Thomas Kell whose birth was registered in Chester Castle sub district. A daughter of Margaret & Mark Molloy was Rosanna.
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Why does Frances Kelly b. Whitehaven 1865 have a different surname?
Answer: She was an adopted daughter.
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Mary Molloy birth registration 1850 Wolstanton, mother's maiden name Kell. (GRO)
So Mark Molloy and Margaret Kell were married by then.
Do you have birth registration or baptism of William Molloy, harfielc?
Have you got Mark Molloy or wife & children on a census before 1871? They are hiding from me.
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Thanks Maiden - Francis Kelly appears from census records to have been born in Whitehaven and adopted by the Molloy's.
c