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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Elizabeth Anne Nield on Friday 10 August 18 17:10 BST (UK)
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Hello everyone,
I've made some progress on British-Genealogy, Ancestry, and FB's Ask the Ancestors, but I'm still extremely perplexed. Carol Coleman from Ancestry suggested I come here.
I'm the granddaughter of Francis "Frank" Nield, whose parents were Robert Nield (Third of His Name - haha) and Emily Sophia Black. It's Emily I'm having difficulty with.
What I know:
She was born in 1886 in Peterborough. Her mother is definitely MANNING, and judging by all info turned up so far, Elizabeth Manning, daughter of Joseph, a carpenter (lol, but true) and Harriet.
Her father is the problem.
Elizabeth was certainly married to Gustave Felix Black of Le Havre, France, son of Jeremie Black (presumably of same). He and his father were both hair dressers, it's said on the marriage record (13 July, 1875, Peterborough Northampton) He was 34, she was 23.
Birth reg.
BLACK, EMILY SOPHIA MMN-MANNING
GRO Ref:1886 D Quarter in PETERBOROUGH Volume 03B Page 232 (I have ordered this document, I don't currently have it.)
Ok, so that's certainly her. These are her siblings, apparently:
BLACK, FELIX WILLIAM MMN-MANNING
GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 594
Blanche Rosalie Blaque Chorlton vol 8c page 811 June 1/4 1878 mmn Manning
(spelled elsewhere Blanche Rosella Black)
So if she was born in 1886 her brother would be 10 and her sister would be 8, or thereabouts.
Then I ran into my first problem. Namely this:
Deaths Dec 1880
Black Gustave age 37 Birmingham 6d 98
And Elizabeth reporting herself as widowed on the 1881 census.
...how could Emily be fathered by a man six years dead? ???
Okay so then in 1891 Elizabeth is living with a man named Thomas Smith. This is the bit of 1891 census found for me.
Felix Black
Gender: Male
Age: 14
Relationship: Lodger
Birth Year: 1877
Birth Place: Middlesborough, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: St Margaret
Residence Place: St Margaret, Leicestershire, England
Sub registration district: East Leicester
ED, Institution or Vessel: 57
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2531
Folio: 77
Household Members:
Name Age
Richard Marriot 72
Emma Marriot 70
Isaac Barningham 53
Thomas Smith 44
Elizabeth Smith 36
Blanche Black 12
Felix Black 14
James Whitworth 32
She says he's her husband but there's been no marriage record found so far.
She has Felix and Blanche with her but I don't see Emily, who ought to be 4 or so years old.
In 1901 this was found:
Name: Blanche Black
[Blanche Smith]
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Mother: Elizabeth Smith
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Leicester formerly St Margaret
Ecclesiastical parish: St Margaret
Town: Leicester
County/Island: Leicestershire
Registration district: Leicester
Sub-registration district: North West Leicester
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Piece: 2987
Folio: 155
Page Number: 6
Household schedule number: 46
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizabeth Smith 47
William Black 24
Blanche Black 23
Sophia Smith 12
Florence Smith 9
Florence Strane 19
So Elizabeth is widowed, again, and still no Emily - because Emily is in the Stockport, Cheshire, Certified Industrial School for Girls, age 14. Or at least an Emily Black is, but it doesn't seem that it could be anyone else. She only surfaces again eight years later in 1909, marrying Robert Nield, my great-grandfather, and nonsensically (according to the known information) stating her father is "William Black, carpenter, deceased".
I really would like to know when she was entered into that school, why she was separated from the rest of her family, who her actual father is if it's possible to find out, and where she was between 1901 and 1909. (I assume she stayed at the school until she was 16, since that's what research has told me was the usual thing, but where would she have gone then?)
Unfortunately it seems records like these are at the National Archives, and I'm in California with no way to get to the bottom of this mystery. Is there anyone who'd be willing to go to Kew and find some answers for me, please?
Thank you,
Elizabeth Nield
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Quite a lot to digest.
A quick look reveals one anomaly (so far)
Gustave Black was 34 at marriage giving a rough birth year of 1841 but the Gustave Black dying in 1880 has a birth year of 1853.
Although ages given at death are often out 12 years seems quite a leap. Are you sure it's him?
To try & answer your question as to where Emily went after leaving Industrial school would almost certainly be domestic service as this is what these girls were trained to do.
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Quite a lot to digest.
A quick look reveals one anomaly (so far)
Gustave Black was 34 at marriage giving a rough birth year of 1841 but the Gustave Black dying in 1880 has a birth year of 1853.
Although ages given at death are often out 12 years seems quite a leap. Are you sure it's him?
...I'm actually not sure it's him, the only reason I thought it had to be him was that Elizabeth claimed to be widowed in 1881. Is there any way to find out what could have actually happened to him? Curiouser and curiouser...
And about the domestic service - could we find out who she worked for? I'm wondering if that's what might have brought her into contact with Robert Nield, my great-grandfather, though his family were farmers.
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Because of the age discrepancy I think you would need the death cert. The address & name of informant might give a clue.
He seems to be a long way from his family so a separation can't be ruled out.
Where were the rest of the family in 1881?
Industrial schools were places for children considered out of the control of the their parents.
Boys were taught a trade & girls were destined for domestic service.
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Also have you ruled out Sophia Smith aged 12 in
1891 1901 as being Emily?
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Also have you ruled out Sophia Smith aged 12 in 1891 as being Emily?
Age 12 in 1901 actually; she has a separate birth record. SMITH, SOPHY MMN- MANNING
GRO Ref: 1889 M Quarter in PETERBOROUGH Volume 03B Page 231
Here's the 1881 census for the widowed Elizabeth with her parents, Felix, and Blanche.
1881 Census
Elizabeth Black
[Elizabeth Manning]
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relationship to Head: Daughter
Father: Joseph Manning
Mother: Harrett Manning
Gender: Female
Where born: Peterboro, Northamptonshire, England
Civil Parish: Peterborough
County/Island: Northamptonshire
Country: England
Street address: Garden Row
Marital Status: Widow
Education:
Employment status:
.
Occupation: Dressmaker
Registration district: Peterborough
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1593
Folio: 62
Page Number: 11
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Manning 69
Harrett Manning 65
Elizabeth Black 27
Felix W. Black 5
Blanche R. Black
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You can't rule out the possibility that Emily was put in an orphanage & sent to Industrial school from there.
Often with institutions only initials are given so can be difficult to find.
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Also I think that William Black in 1901 is Felix or have you come to that conclusion yourself?
Not germane to your question but need to know who everyone is & where they are.
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Also I think that William Black in 1901 is Felix or have you come to that conclusion yourself?
Not germane to your question but need to know who everyone is & where they are.
I think the William Black in 1901 must be Felix William Black, Elizabeth's eldest child with Gustave.
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You can't rule out the possibility that Emily was put in an orphanage & sent to Industrial school from there.
Often with institutions only initials are given so can be difficult to find.
Why would Emily have been in an orphanage though if she had family available to raise her?
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The stigma of illegitimacy. Maybe Thomas Smith objected.
There's also the possibility she's there but left off the census.
I've had a look for information on the Stockport school but no records appear to exist.
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The stigma of illegitimacy. Maybe Thomas Smith objected.
There's also the possibility she's there but left off the census.
I've had a look for information on the Stockport school but no records appear to exist.
I was told the records might be at the National Archive in Kew. Are you sure there's nothing at all? :(
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Quite a lot to digest.
A quick look reveals one anomaly (so far)
Gustave Black was 34 at marriage giving a rough birth year of 1841 but the Gustave Black dying in 1880 has a birth year of 1853.
Although ages given at death are often out 12 years seems quite a leap. Are you sure it's him?
To try & answer your question as to where Emily went after leaving Industrial school would almost certainly be domestic service as this is what these girls were trained to do.
Age at death 37.
1880 - 37 = 1843. ;)
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TNA do have some:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=stockport+%28girls%29+industrial+school
Age at death 37.
1880 - 37 = 1843.
Doh. I'm not having a good day today.
I've been in the trenches most of the week & I'm thinking I have shell shock. That's my excuse anyway
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Hi Elizabeth,
I'm glad to see you've got started here,if anyone can find something it's this lot!!!
I'll give the link to what ideas we've already suggested on Ancestry.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/boards/localities.britisles.england.chs.general/11884.3.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.2/mb.ashx
Hope they have it solved for you by the morning 8)
Carol
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I've looked at the Stockport Archive & they only hold a letter. They don't claim to hold anything else.
The problem with TNA is that you will need to engage a researcher which won't be cheap but there doesn't appear to be anywhere else to go.
However their admittance books will tell you when she arrived & left. They may give the circumstances for her being there or just indicate which authority was responsible.
With regard to her natural father I'm afraid you won't know unless it states his name on her birth cert. which is rare but does happen.
Elizabeth may have taken out an illegitimacy order but most of these no longer exist but as she's taken up residence with Thomas Smith it's unlikely she did that anyway.
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I have suggested Cheshire Record Office too,but it seems as though records exist on the boys industrial school,not many are still around for the girls section.
Rootschat does have a few people who visit the National Archives at Kew.
Elizabeth, I would suggest that you put another request on the Common Room board headed something like Look at up Kew please,and then ask if anyone is going would they do you a massive favour. Once you get a response then explain to them exactly what you need them to look up.
Carol