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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: geoff_43 on Monday 13 August 18 00:39 BST (UK)
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A few years age the people on this site helped me break down a brick wall for a friend. I am hoping for help again with the family.
Here is the link to the original post. I feel it may help
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=724186.msg5718585#msg5718585
We have found out a few things since.
Harry Ryan & Edith May Neal finally married 26 May 1911 in the Roman Catholic Church in St. Heliers, Jersey.
Their children Daniel, and Ethel were presented at the service and granted legitimacy.
However, the marriage appears not to have lasted. Harry's WW1 file states he's married to Edith but her address is unknown. He lists Daniel and Ethel as children but also a son John 2 yrs old with guardian Mrs Cliff, 47? St. Katherines Rd?, Notting Hill.
This is crossed out so guessing not a legitimate child.
The family I'm trying to help would love to know who John aged 2 is. Did he have any children?
Have they a half family?
Any help would be greatly appreciated, but also realise we are getting into the "possible living" area.
We also have no idea what happened to Harry or Edith after 1911.
Here is WW1 record for those who have FindMyPast, can't find it on Ancestry.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007258196%2f00146&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7258196%2f17%2f146
Thank you in advance
Geoff
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But notice there is another guardian for child not named
Mrs J Ryall, 165 Portland Road, Notting Hill.
Looks as though it was added later
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Hello,
For those who do not have access to the record, what year would John be born and is there also another child (Mckha489’s post). Could Ryall be Ryan? Although I see it as a surname so maybe not.
Heywood
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I hope this loads ok.
His WW1 file starts September 1914, so presumably if we assume the thick ink is the earlier entry then "John' was born between Sept 1911 and Sept 1912 and I was thinking that John is the same as 'Child". But of course, could be wrong!
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trying again for better quality image
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Thanks - that’s much better :)
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In 1911 ,165 Portland Road was a lodging house run by Arthur and Katherine Strange.
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Hi Evey one,
I should have mentioned the second guardian in my original post, sorry.
It has always been assumed this is the same child, but this is open to debate.
Thanks for your interest in this, we have followed many a dead end on this and unfortunately can not really add any more information.
Geoff
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Why is the information crossed through, I wonder.
Also what does that say/mean re the Bramley Road address?
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Hi heywood,
We believe that only legitimate children would be taken in to account if the military had to pay compensation to a soldier's widow. Theory is Harry listed the child as his but the army would not count it as a legitimate child.
Geoff
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Can any one read the initial of Mrs Ryall?
I've just found in 1911 Louisa Gertrude Ryall Widow (married crossed out) 36 with a baby son under one month in Crowland Rd, Tottenham. May be a coincidence.
Geoff
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Difficult. I thought it might ‘F’ but not sure.
At that time too, women often referred to by husband’s initial.
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Thanks heywood.
Think it's a red herring now as BMD suggests that child was named Ronald Edward.
Worth a try though.
Geoff
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Can anyone help me out here - WW1 record for 1914 referred to, with details of wife/children page posted, but I can't seem to find it in service/pension records (unless I'm doing something daft).
Can someone tell me where/details of the record is listed please? Just wanted to see the record for myself.
Annette
Forget that - have now found it!
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In 1911 ,165 Portland Road was a lodging house run by Arthur and Katherine Strange.
1915 -Electoral register
165 Portland Rd is Arthur Strange
167 Portland Rd is Ernest Alfred Ryell
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1920 electoral register
47 St Katherine’s road - William Michael Breagan and Mary Ellen Breagan
1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW2P-S7D
Interesting address but not what we need :-\
Marriage 1905 William Breagan and Mary Ellen Frankham
The guardians may just be foster carers
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In 1911 ,165 Portland Road was a lodging house run by Arthur and Katherine Strange.
1915 -Electoral register
165 Portland Rd is Arthur Strange
167 Portland Rd is Ernest Alfred Ryell
Well blow me I never looked to see who the next door neighbours were !!!
Mrs Ryell seems to be called Florence.
I had rellies in Portland Road just before the turn of the century.
They were massive houses(still are).
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Harry Ryan & Edith May Neal finally married 26 May 1911 in the Roman Catholic Church in St. Heliers, Jersey.
Their children Daniel, and Ethel were presented at the service and granted legitimacy.
Geoff
Hi Geoff,
They were married in the Church of England, St Helier, not the Roman Catholic Church. It might be unimportant though but just thought I would point this out. :)
Heywood
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Hi heywood,
You are correct in the marriage. Lesson learnt - type what I know, not what I think I know.
Geoff
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Hi All,
Thanks for all the work you have been doing on this.
The Ryell family at No. 167 Portland Road seem worth me pursuing.
Does any one else feel it odd Harry could give DOB for two children on WW1 papers, but just an age for John?
Geoff
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In 1911 ,165 Portland Road was a lodging house run by Arthur and Katherine Strange.
1915 -Electoral register
165 Portland Rd is Arthur Strange
167 Portland Rd is Ernest Alfred Ryell
Florence Ryell is née Strange. At their marriage in 1910 they both give their address as 165 Portland Road.
Yes, I agree most odd just an age for John
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I wonder if John could have been born in St. Helier and a lawful son. We know that Edith and the 2 children were in Jersey in 1911, they finally married there that year. Was she already pregnant with 'John'? Perhaps Harry wasn't around at the time the birth and by the time he found out Edith had run off. He might not have known the child's birth date and brought the 3 of them back to England where Daniel and Ethel were sent to Little Hampton and he found someone to care for John . When he enlisted he needed to formally appoint a guardian but sounds like they didn't keep him and guardianship passed to another. If it had been an illegitimate child of his surely the child would have been with it's mother rather than him being responsible for appointing a Guardian when he enlisted. Certainly sounds as if there was no mother around.
Can't explain why John's details crossed through unless he died.
Annette
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Hi Annette,
An interesting suggestion and not one I had considered. Edith may have died pre 1914 but I've found no records for her death.
But then why put 2 children in an orphanage and not the 3rd?
Geoff