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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Anthony Wardrop on Monday 13 August 18 12:55 BST (UK)
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Hello my name is Anthony,
Please before telling me Ive posted in the wrong place, asked the wrong thing etc... please be kind as this is the first forum I have posted on and believe me I have paid a lot of money to ancestry sites before finally posting here.Three generations of Wardrops have passed on without one story of how we made it to Australia and where in Scotland we are from. William Wardrop who died on the 20Th August 1872 at 22 Melville Street, Glasgow at the age of 85 after working as a Chemist for almost 50 years as a chemist for Charles Tennant & Co St. Rollox. That would place him around 1787 born. The only reason I know these specifics is his son Joseph Bogle Wardrop placed them in the Sydney Morning Herald news paper in honour of his father, who to be honest without this strange obituary request I would have zero link to Scotland. if anyone has any way to find out where the grave could be any other family members any historical sites to look up Charles Tennant & Co old photographs as a Chemist is a specific job and even though I think there was 1000 employees you can guarantee a lot more would be labourers then Chemical Chemists. Thank you in advance to anyone who might even give me a direction. Cheers Anthony Wardrop
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Hi Anthony, and welcome to RootsChat.
If you go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, register, and invest in a few credits at modest cost, you will be able to download a copy of William Wardrop's death certificate. This should tell you the names of his parents, including his mother's maiden surname.
There are transcriptions of some of the census online at https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
In 1851, at 131 Trongate Street, Glasgow, were
Mary Wardrobe, head, married, 24, cap maker, born Rutherglen
William Wardrobe, son, 5, born Barony
Charles Wardrobe, son, 1, born Barony
William Wardrobe, father, widower, 62, chemist, born Barony.
Barony parish is part of Glasgow.
In 1841, at St Lawrence Street, Greenock, were
Walter Wardrop, 25, engineer journeyman
Jane Wardrop, 20
Willm Wardrop, 2
Willm Wardrop, 50, chemist
all listed as born in Renfrewshire.
For possible links to photographs and records of Charles Tennant and Co, start with https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/glasgow-city-archives
Re ancestry sites, see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
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Thank you for your help. Im starting to understand how our Australian files work but as soon as I cross the Border a new paper trail system starts again Ha! Ha!
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:)
Welcome to RootsChat, Anthony.
Here is live link to the newspaper cutting you mention.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13263316 10 Sept 1872 Sydney Morning Herald
Your Sydney based ancestor must have received that news via telegram if his dad died in Melville St Glasgow on 20th August.
JM
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William Wardrop managed to get in the 1828-1912 - Post-Office annual Glasgow directory
https://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/archive/90162067?mode=transcription
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13097442 18 Sept 1863 Sydney Morning Herald (NSW)
Joseph Bogle WARDROP marriage info
JM :)
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Hi JM can you please explain to a stupid 37 year old how the Telegram worked?. Are you saying that a member of the family in Scotland posted the Obituary so that Joseph the son in Sydney could see that his father had died?
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:)
No, I am saying someone in Scotland went to their Telegraph Office (which in the Australian colonies was part of the Post Office) and paid for a message to be sent via the telegraph lines in Morse code to Joseph to advise him that his father had died. Consequent to this, Joseph then attended the Sydney Morning Herald newspaper offices (or their agents office in his locality) and paid for the information to be posted in the classified section of the newspaper.
Telegraphy .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraphy
Before the internet, there were faxes.
Before faxes there were telexes
Before telexes there were landline telephones
Before telexes there were telegrams
Telegrams could be transmitted by using radio frequencies, but that was a Marconi invention, more recent than 1872. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Marconi
Marconi telegraphy was WIRELESS
Before Marconi telegraphy it was WIRE as in copper wires strung between poles across land, and submarine cable across oceans...
dot dot dot dash dash dash dot dot dot http://www.linguanaut.com/morse_code.htm
all the above is in 'general terms'only and subject to briefness and of course lateness of the evening and relying on my grey cells and wikipedia.
JM
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I see from the NSW deaths index that Joseph Bogle Wardrop died in Sydney in 1899, and that his parents were William and Mary Ann. Does the actual death certificate say what her maiden surname was?
I also see from Trove and the NSW marriages index that Joseph was married in Sydney in 1863, and that he was a blacksmith.
At 233 High Street, Glasgow in 1851 were
James Hendry, head, married 43, blacksmith, born Cummertrees
Mary Hendry, wife, married, 37, born Pollokshaws
Joseph Wardrop, servant, 14, blacksmith apprentice, born Glasgow
Mary Wardrop, lodger, unmarried, 26, seamstress, born Glasgow
William Wardrop, lodger, 5, born Glasgow
Charles Wardrop, lodger, 18 months, born Glasgow
Now, it looks to me as if Mary, William and Charles may have been recorded twice in the 1851 census. But if so why?
In 1841, at 230 Castle Street, Glasgow, were
Mary Wardrop, 46
Mary Wardrop, 17
Alexr Wardrop, 15
Andrew Wardrop, 13
Isabella Wardrop, 9
Catherine Wardrop, 7
Joseph Wardrop, 5
James Hendry, 30, blacksmith
Mary Hendry, 25
all except James born in Lanarkshire.
From the index to pre-1855 births and baptisms on Scotland's People, the family of William Wardrop and Mary Hamilton included Mary, 1818; William, 1819; Mary, 1824; Alexr, 1825; Andrew, 1828; Isabella, 1832; Catherine, 1834; Joseph Bogle, 1836; George, 1839.
You could view any these baptisms at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk at a fraction of the cost of getting one NSW certificate (currently A$33, equivalent to GBP18.82, which would buy you 12 Scottish certificates)
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oops, I probably ought to add that 20 August to 10 Sept 1872 ... too short for a letter to have arrived via post as the mail came by steam ships.
JM
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I think the one of the marks is half sister so that might explain double up
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Sorry "Mary" half sister
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If William was married twice his death certificate ought to tell you the names of both of his wives.
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scotlandspeople also has the Inventory of what must be William Wardrop's estate :
Wardrop William 22/11/1872 residing in Dunoon , son of David Wardrop , Merchant in Glasgow
Edinburgh Sheriff Court Inventories.
Available for £2.50 I believe ?
Now known to be incorrect :)
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Unusual to see a reference to William's father's name in a document of this type and given his age at death.
Monica
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I found him on Scotspeople.uk bought a few credits can't understand the writing tried to post it here attachment 232kb but it says i have gone over limit.1872 it looks like june 22nd has the right address 22 Melville street Glasgow and correct occupation as Chemist and parents Walter and Margaret.
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Unusual to see a reference to William's father's name in a document of this type and given his age at death.
Indeed. Also odd that someone residing in Dunoon and whose father was in Glasgow should have their inventory recorded in Edinburgh Sheriff Court.
Also the father's name is at variance with the death certificate which says he was Walter, not David.
I wonder if this is another William Wardrop, a young unmarried man, who died outside Scotland?
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Anthony has sent me the death certificate. William was indeed married twice, but the informant did not know the name of the other wife, only Mary Hamilton. Father Walter Wardrop, mother Margaret Aitken. Informant Mary Malcolm, niece-in-law, signed with an 'x'.
Now going into the realms of speculation.
If Mary was Walter's niece-in-law, then Mary's husband must have been Walter's nephew. So his mother must have been a Wardrop.
There is a family born to James Malcolm and Ann Wardrop: Janet, 1811; Ann 1815; Alexander, 1820; Christian, 1824; Jean, 1826; Margaret, 1828.
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From Forfarian's details for William Snr in the 1841 census, he looks to have been staying with eldest son Walter.
Some details from someone connected to Walter's line, just for background as to what happened to him, here www.ancestry.co.uk/boards/surnames.wardrop/124.2/mb.ashx
Monica
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Anthony, do you have access/subscription to Ancestry? There are a number of well researched and documented family trees for your Joseph showing there such as www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/8612367/person/-921939761/facts?ssrc=
Three generations of Wardrops have passed on without one story of how we made it to Australia and where in Scotland we are from.
He looks to have arrived in NSW on 8 July 1858 at the age of 22 on the 'Queen of England'. He gave his father's details on the shipping manifest and showing as born in the High Church area of Glasgow.
He gave his sister Isabella (born c. 1832) as contact/sponsor in NSW. Isabella looks to have been married by 1858, showing under surname of Simmons.
Monica
Added: A sad ending for him wasn't it :-\
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Children of Walter Wardrop and Margaret Aitken included Walter 1783, Margaret 1784, Walter 1787, William 1790, Janet 1792, John 1794, Isobel 1800, Ann 1802, James 1804, Ann 1806 and Alexander Cunningham 1810.
So William's sister Ann cannot be the one who married James Malcolm.
Anne Wardrope, other surname Orr, mother's surname Aitken, died in Neilston in 1855 aged 49. Ann Wardrop married John Orr in Neilston in 1832.
There is also a Jane Sharp, other name Wardrop, mother Aitken, who died in 1859 aged 66. She could perhaps be Janet?
Alexander Cunningham Wardrop died in 1868.
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This listing here www.ancestry.co.uk/boards/surnames.wardrop/137/mb.ashx fits well with what you have confirmed, Forfarian.
Monica
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A few images of the C Tennant's Chemical Works at St Rollox here:
www.rootschat.com/links/01mi9/
www.penicuikpapermaking.org/morerm.html
www.flickr.com/photos/beavis64/7142601711
The building's chimneys are very distinctive aren't they. Over the years, they had to take them down due to safety concerns. The flickr shot from the 1940s shows just one left it seems. See www.heraldscotland.com/news/15229402.An_explosive_end_to_a_Glasgow_landmark/
On the history of the business itself, Charles Tennant & Co., lots online for background.
Monica
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Hi Monica, Yes I do Have a subscription. What I have been finding is that so many people have been modifying the information to make that person fit in with their family (so much isn't accurate), as well as the time when I guess every one wasn't perfect readers and writers and everything was recorded on paper. I was reading that many people of the day changed surnames or spelling of or lied about age or dates for what ever reason to survive or for certain circumstances. Where as today if you try and hide or change some thing, It too hard as Google and Facebook are there to catch you out. So when I first signed up I had clicked 8 generation s of family history , sat back and was chuffed with myself that I had solved the Wardrop mystery in 30 minutes, fast forward 31 minutes and nothing was linning up not only was my great great great grandfather still alive but he also had 65 children lived in the US was a Factory Laborour and a Ships Captain at the same time etc...... So now Im slowly going back and piecing it together correctly.
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I had clicked 8 generation s of family history , sat back and was chuffed with myself that I had solved the Wardrop mystery in 30 minutes, fast forward 31 minutes and nothing was linning up not only was my great great great grandfather still alive but he also had 65 children lived in the US was a Factory Laborour and a Ships Captain at the same time etc...... So now Im slowly going back and piecing it together correctly.
Brilliant :) :) :)
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Thank you to everyone who has helped me. I had spent a few weeks on Ancestry and was starting to give up but your fresh ideas have helped me re energise.
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oops, I probably ought to add that 20 August to 10 Sept 1872 ... too short for a letter to have arrived via post as the mail came by steam ships.
According to the death certificate William Wardrop actually died on 20 June, not 20 August.
I'm afraid I don't know how long it would have taken a ship to get from Britain to Australia in 1872.
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I just looked at the newspaper death announcement and noticed that it mentions Mrs Charles Simmons.
Charles Richard Simmon married Isabella Wardrope in Sydney in 1856. So it looks as if Joseph's sister Isabella also emigrated to Australia.
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He looks to have arrived in NSW on 8 July 1858 at the age of 22 on the 'Queen of England'. He gave his father's details on the shipping manifest and showing as born in the High Church area of Glasgow.
He gave his sister Isabella (born c. 1832) as contact/sponsor in NSW. Isabella looks to have been married by 1858, showing under surname of Simmons.
This is from the original image so the marriage details you have Forfarian would tie up with that. I think Joseph also called one of his children after his brother in law?
Monica
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Sorry, Monica, I must have overlooked the second paragraph on that earlier post of yours.
As you say, it all ties up.
Mary born 1818 must have died young, but there are several more children not so far accounted for.
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This might be Andrew in 1851
87 Centre Street, Glasgow
Andrew Wardrop, head, married, 23, engineer finisher
Sarah Wardrop, wife, 23
William Wardrop, 4
Alexander Wardrop, 2
Catherine Paterson, mother-in-law, widow, 53, seamstress
Charles Paterson, brother-in-law, 22, boat builder carpenter
Agnes Paterson, siste-in-law, 24, seamstress
All Patersons including Sarah born in Greenock; all Wardrops in Glasgow.
There's a death of Sarah Wardrop, other name Pat*son, in Glasgow Milton in 1862, no age given in index. Can't see an obvious death for Andrew, so *if* this Sarah was his wife, maybe he emigrated after her death?
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I'm afraid I don't know how long it would have taken a ship to get from Britain to Australia in 1872.
Generally about three months ....
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Joseph is Buried in the same vicinity as Isabella in Rookwood Cemetery, and you are correct about Isabella sponsoring Joseph as the paper work states (have a second confirmation from a family descendant as well) and then Joseph sponsored his wife to be "Fanny" who came over on the "Spitfire".