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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: mary bonner on Monday 13 August 18 15:49 BST (UK)
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My Granddad Pte Frederick Charles Barnard served in WW1 4/middlesex reg.He was medically discharged with an archive ref NLS1918_WList22. His service number was 14367. and his incident date was 28/12/1917.
How do I find out what his incident was from this information.
I know he was Mustard gassed, suffered shell shock and spent time in a sanatorium back in the U.K. before being sent back to the front at least two times
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Your man appears on the Silver War Badge list on 17/3/19 discharged due to sickness.
This was with the Labour Corps & his number was 642960.
This was a common route for men who had suffered injury but were still fit enough for some kind of service.
I can't see a service record or pension record for him so one of the 60% destroyed in WW2.
His number gives an attestation date of mid/late 1912.
He was in the 1st. Battalion before being posted to the 4th. His entry date is the 11th. Aug. 1914 this is when the 1st. Batt. went overseas. The 4th. went 3 days later.
He was awarded the 14 Star. British War & Victory Medals.
One of the Old Contemptibles as they proudly called themselves.
and his incident date was 28/12/1917
What does this mean?
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I am enclosing the info. I have from the forces war records site.
Thank you very much for the info you have given me. I had heard of the old contemptibles but did not realise he was one of them.
First Name:
F
Surname:
Barnard
Incident Details:
War Office Daily List No. 5451
Incident Date:
28/12/1917
More Information:
Entitled to wear a "Wound Stripe" as authorised under Army Order 204 of 6th July 1916. The terms of this award being met by their naming in this list.
Rank:
Private
Service Number:
14367
Casualty Listed As:
Wounded
Next Of Kin Address:
Tottenham, N.
Service:
British Army
Primary Unit:
Middlesex Regiment
Archive Reference:
NLS 1918_WList22
Middlesex Regiment during World War 1
I do have 3 of his medals. PIP. SQUEEK and WILFRED I do believe they are called.
Regards
stephy
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A wound stripe was worn on the left lower sleeve of the uniform.
It's quite possible this is when he was transferred to the L.C. See above post.
Nothing happening in the 4/Mddx. 28/12/17.
The date may be the day he was declared fit for service. No point in awarding a wound stripe if he's going to be discharged.
Good to hear his medals are still in the family. So many of them ended being sold or in the bin.
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How do I find out where he was and what he was doing.
I was 14 when he died in1958 but he never spoke of his memories
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Without a service record it's impossible to say how or where he received his wound. You can take several months off the date he was declared fit.
All you can say is that he was with the 4/Mddx. at the time rather than the L.C.
You need to go back to March 1917 as a starting point.
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I don't know if this is any help. 4th battalion, The Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex Regiment).
4Aug1914 Devonport, 8th Brigade, 3rd Division. 14Aug1914 landed at Boulogne. 14Nov1915 to 63rd Brigade, 21st Division. 8thJul1916 63rd Bde. to 37th Division. 11Nov1918 63rd Bde, 37th Division France moving to Caudry, SW of Solesmes.
Source: British Regiments 1914-1918 by Brig. EA James OBE, TD.
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I've had a look a the war diary & just looking at a few pages they were taking small numbers of casualties almost on a daily basis so no real help.
I think your best bet are local newspapers which often reported on local men being wounded or killed and may give date & place.
Here also is a guide to finding information on casualties using the daily lists.
http://www.researchingww1.co.uk/ww1-casualty-lists
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Glad you mentioned local newspapers. Not seen those referred to before and neither have I drawn attention (rapped wrists). The local newspapers were full of deaths at the Fronts, including photographs. In 1915, my grandfathers sister lost a son (France) and step-son (Gallipoli) weeks apart. All the grisly details in the Lydney Observer.
Added: Also the Official History of the Great War, Within County there's probably a many volume copy which if you request the volume for December 1917, it will show where 37th Division was. narrative plus Front maps.
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I'd like to know where Mary got the list from.
The bit that concerns me is the incident date.
Was this when he was wounded bearing in mind that there were no reported casualties in the 4/Mddx. that day or when he received his wound stripe or when it was published.
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Thanks so much, all of you
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It's probably not worth continuing with this Mary. As Jim said there were minimal losses in 4/Middlesex Regiment. Your grandfather was just unlucky to be on the receiving end of a random German shell after the battle.
Overall, this was after the end of the Battle of Passchendaele (3rd Ypres). which ended in November. 37th together with 19th Division in IX Corps were at the southern end of the Front from the beginning on the Menin Road running SE from Ypres.
Not so the Australians and New Zealanders, who suffered horrendous casualties. The New Zealanders had to be replaced by Canadians.
Passchendaele was like a moonscape with stunted tree stumps and a sea of mud. Still, I suppose it had to be done. Otherwise we would be ruled by the Hohenzollerns today. Hang on, if we stay in the EU it might come to pass anyway :o.
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Hello.
In answer to Jims question, The list came from a researcher from forces war records.
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This is the problem when you don't have the original record.
Incident date is too vague to have any meaning.
Your researcher should have explained what that was.
I don't know how long ago you were in touch but if it was recently I'd ask that question.
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OK. We're never really going to know what happened to him when or where.
You did mention that he was gassed. The diary for 3/9/17 & 3/10/17 states a total of 45 men were gassed.
He may have been one of these.
The casualty list may be quite a bit behind the event owing to the huge number of casualties suffered during the 3rd. battle of Ypres.
I think the date 28/12/17 is the date the list was published & the comment that he was entitled to the wound stripe is a general remark applying to all of those on the list as they were all wounded in action rather than by accident or self infliction.
When he was declared fit he's been transferred to the Labour Corps.
Earlier in the year they were in the Arras sector, they moved to the Ypres Salient on June 1st. where they remained for the rest of the year. So at least you know where he was as he wouldn't have been wounded earlier than June.
I think this is a reasonable educated guess but as I said we'll never know for sure.
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Thanks Jim. You have been very helpful. Yes I agree, thats about as far as we are going to get.
Mary