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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Jill Eaton on Tuesday 14 August 18 13:05 BST (UK)
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Just more of a general query. I've been trying to locate an ancestor James Williams for some time. I won't go into detail as Rootschatters have made valiant attempts to locate him before.
On his son's marriage certificate in 1863 in Westminster London his occupation is down as "carpenter"
So my query is:
Were carpenters also known as any other occupation/job title? This may help to locate a possible candidate on one of the census. The term "carpenter" hasn't really given any useful leads.
I don't know where he came from nor his date of birth so I'm not expecting any Rootschatters to try to identify him.
Simply some ideas on alternative job titles for a carpenter.
Thanks for any ideas and contribution.
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A Joiner, A Cabinet Maker, An Arkwright, A Woodsmith and a Crater.
Possibly a Turner, or a Lathesmith, or even a Bodger.
Regards
Chas
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A Joiner, A Cabinet Maker, An Arkwright, A Woodsmith and a Crater.
Possibly a Turner, or a Lathesmith, or even a Bodger.
Regards
Chas
Some terms in there I'm definitely not familiar with! :D
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Also a Sawyer
I once looked up for someone who was convinced her family were all Lawyers !! They were in fact Sawyers - it didn't go down well with her!!
Suz
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I wouldn't dismiss Shipwrights, either ;D
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From the OED
Carpenter; ‘An artificer in wood’ (Johnson); as distinguished from a joiner, cabinet-maker, etc., one who does the heavier and stronger work in wood, as the framework of houses, ships, etc.
He could also build framework and undercarriages of threshing machines, straw elevators, and other agricultural machines, and fits the parts together.
Joiner; A craftsman whose occupation it is to construct things by joining pieces of wood; a worker in wood who does lighter and more ornamental work than that of a carpenter, as the construction of the furniture and fittings of a house, ship, etc.
Stan
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A Cooper.
Regards
Chas
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I appreciate it doesn't necessarily follow and ancestors/descendants do move up and down the social ladder but as the son John was a labourer it seems a little unlikely that the father would have been considerably more skilled. So I think carpentry, as in heavy woodwork, would perhaps be more likely than the more skilled joiner.
I imagine there may even have been times where James was simply a labourer?
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I have one in my tree who is variously described as a carpenter, joiner or wright in baptism records. I think a cooper was more specialised, ie. barrel production, so some metal working involved also
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Were there cars to pint in 1863 ??? ??? ???
Malky
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I can't add any other suggestions to the carpentry list and I haven't seen your other postings but I note London is mentioned. If he was a ship's carpenter he could very well be at sea on long haul journeys maintaining the wooden sailing ship and calling in at any port in a storm.
I see there's mention of 1863 as a son's marriage date. America's five year civil war lasted from 1861 to 1865 and during that time North America successfully defended thousands of miles of coastal waters, thus blockaded the southern ports against supplies brought by British sailing ships. As described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_blockade
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I can't add any other suggestions to the carpentry list and I haven't seen your other postings but I note London is mentioned. If he was a ship's carpenter he could very well be at sea on long haul journeys maintaining the wooden sailing ship and calling in at any port in a storm.
I see there's mention of 1863 as a son's marriage date. America's five year civil war lasted from 1861 to 1865 and during that time North America successfully defended thousands of miles of coastal waters, thus blockaded the southern ports against supplies brought by British sailing ships. As described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_blockade
Must admit the possibility of James being a carpenter on board ship had not occurred to me.
As already mentioned I know absolutely nothing about him and there seemed to be little in the way of a nautical connection for any of my immediate family.
His twin granddaughters - my gt grandmother and gt aunt were born, raised and both married in London.
My gt grandmother married a labourer........my gt aunt however, married a sailor of Irish descent born in Gosport. So now I'm wondering whether there may have been some family connection to seafaring afterall!!
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I've surfed to see whether there was a forced naval conscription, or a general call for carpenters, etc., to join the merchant navy but couldn't find anything.
However, I did find a newspaper article dated 2010 online that surprised me no end. Apparently thousands of ordinary British men sailed to the Americas to fight in their civil war. The reason being that people in the weaving and other trades were put out of work due to the unrest. Some joined the South but other's joined the Northern army. It all sounds very gory
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330735/Thousands-British-volunteers-gave-lives-Americas-civil-war.html
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I've surfed to see whether there was a forced naval conscription, or a general call for carpenters, etc., to join the merchant navy but couldn't find anything.
However, I did find a newspaper article dated 2010 online that surprised me no end. Apparently thousands of ordinary British men sailed to the Americas to fight in their civil war. The reason being that people in the weaving and other trades were put out of work due to the unrest. Some joined the South but other's joined the Northern army. It all sounds very gory
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330735/Thousands-British-volunteers-gave-lives-Americas-civil-war.html
That was fascinating Rena. So much history we don't know!
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As a result of the very helpful responses I got to my original question I found this...
1851 census
James Williams aged 46 (born 1805) (his son John was born in 1831 so the 1805 date is a perfectly reasonable possibility)
Born Southampton, Hampshire,
Married
A visitor
Occupation - Carpenter Journeyman
May be completely incidental and lead no where but interesting nonetheless.
HO107, Piece 1480, Folio 513, Page 6
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To Jill Eaton:
in case he was still in Westminster, London and not at sea, did you try any of the trade directories for the years he was probably working?
Popular directories were Kelly's and Wrights and I think reference libraries have these.
Also you can sometimes find pdf downloads online. I have seen trades directories in Loughbourgh University Library online also.
Regarding other names and definitions for a carpenter I think a carpenter is closer to a cabinet maker and a joiner is more likely to make wooden frames and roof timbers for houses and buildings.
Another name not suggested so far is Wheelwright and like a Cooper it's rather specialized obviously making carriage wheels and spinning wheels.
Andy_T
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Westminster, western part of London has always been the home of peers, bishops and toffs. We can rule out having anything to do with being a ship's carpenter who would probably reside in the eastern part of London. Thus your ancestor must have worked on furniture and fixtures and fittings like this in the City of Westminster:-
"There is a large old house at the end of Cowley Street, having a fine double staircase; indeed, there are fine staircases, and other marks of aristocratic occupation, in many of the houses round about this spot."
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/old-new-london/vol4/pp1-13
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Moving on to whether there is a connection between carpentry in London and foreign lands - I spotted this about one of the most famous antique furniture makers of London - this being "Gillows furniture":-
"1814-1897
... the company expanded from furniture design and bespoke manufacture to being an interior design company that would manufacture furniture and supply other manufacturers products. They were the largest company of its type outside London; where they maintained showrooms and workshops. They had a solid reputation for quality.
The company won commissions to furnish and decorate public buildings in Australia, South Africa, India, Russia, Germany, France and the United States. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillows_of_Lancaster_and_London
After quickly scanning through that webpage it seems the company could have employed apprentices and craftsmen from several parts of the UK, thus an open mind when looking for what I consider to be mainly a Welsh surname of Williams (not Williamson as found in the rest of the UK). It's a shortish journey from Wales eastward - or if Williamson family shortened their surname to Williams, they could have travelled down from Lancashire to Westminster, London.
Presumably most documentation would have been destroyed in the London blitz of WWII.
Best Wishes,
Rena