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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: Bernie12 on Tuesday 14 August 18 19:50 BST (UK)

Title: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Tuesday 14 August 18 19:50 BST (UK)
Hello, Iím looking for any information re my ancestors from Wicklow, in particular my great grandfather who appears to be William (Valentine) Bestal b1862 Wicklow. Iím not 100% sure he is my great grandfather but a name Cullen appears on two certificates and the dates kind of tie in.

Iím looking for any information re William Bestal b1862 his siblings and siblings of his mother Anne Cullen and father William Bestal as this is where Iím at a loss.

If anyone has information at all to connect William Valentine b1862 to William Bestal b1893 ( my grandfather)  I would really appreciate it.

Hereís what Iíve got so far:-
William Bestal Baptised 5 may 1862, county Wicklow (could be my great grandfather), online baptismal certificate states his name was Valentine Bestal but Valentine is scored out and replaced by by William.
William (Valentineís) parents were William Bestal and Anne Cullen (possibly my great great grandparents) sponsor on baptismal certificate is Mary Reilly. 

I think there is a strong possibility these are the parents of William Bestal (my grandfather) as the date and the name Cullen ties in with regards to my grandfathers baptismal certificate as per info below.

My gandfather was William Bestel (photo attached, (need to scroll to the right)) was baptised 1/2/1893 Rathdrum, Wicklow. Godparents John Cullen and Brigida Corcoran, parents William Bestal and Margaret Corcoran.

His mother Margaret Corcoran Baptised 22 Jun 1855 Avoca,co Wicklow.
Margaretís parents were Rose Carroll and John Corcoran.
sponsors/godparents on her baptismal certificate are Richard Murray & Catherine Goggins

William Bestal and Margaret Corcoran were married on 2 Jul 1888 Avoca Williams address shows as Ballinakill, Margaretís address - Bariniskey, witnesses John & Mary Sullivan. Both died in Scotland

William Bestel b1893 (my grandfather) siblings were
Bridget born Wicklow, Ireland Married William Martin in Ireland
Margaret married to .... Kelly.
Mary Anne Bistal b13 Sep 1888 in Avoca, Baptised 16 Sep 1888, Avoca, address Balinastraw, godparents Brian &Maria Laughlin
John (aka Jack) Bestial b12 Oct 1890 ē Aughrm, Ireland Baptised 13 Oct 1890 as address Mongnacool, parish Aughrim, godparents Andrew & Margaret Cosgrove,
Edward b1896
Francis b1898 Wicklow
All died in Kilsyth Scotland apart from Edward who apparently died in Ireland possibly Wicklow as he went back to Ireland to work for relations

Timeline in brief
William Bestal and Anne Cullen
William (Valentine) Bestal b1862 Wicklow - son
William Bestel b1893 Wicklow probably son and my grandfather

If anyone has any information as to which Bestall/Bestal family William Bestall husband of Anne Cullen is connected to it and if William Bestal married to Margaret Corcoran is William (Valentineís son) it would help me a greatly as Iíve been trying to find out for many years and have got nowhere.

Itís clear that the name should either be Bestal or Bestall, I have an old money box with the surname Bestall on it.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Tuesday 14 August 18 20:32 BST (UK)
Well William, married to Margaret Corcoran, father is also William as per his marriage cert.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10776/5930195.pdf
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Tuesday 14 August 18 20:40 BST (UK)
Thank you, William appears to be a name regulary chosen in my family. Although Bestal/Bestall is a fairly unusual name, there appears to be quite a few William Bestallís ( eg William Law Bestal, Audley William Bestall) Unfortunately Iím not 100% sure how or which William is connected and thatís where Iím having difficulty.

I wonder if there is a connection to the Halpins, Mannings and Jenkinsons of Wicklow also as the surname Bestal/ Bestall women appear  in those family trees.

Sadly after at least 10  years of searching Iíve been unable to complete the link, the only way is to confirm if William (Valentine) is my great great grandfather and if he has any siblings and who they  married etc
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Tuesday 14 August 18 21:07 BST (UK)
William Law Bestall seems to be connected to the William Bestall that died Templelyon in 1904 daughter Elsie, there is also a William Law henry Bestall died same place brother Fredrick who is likely to be a son of the William who died 1904.
Than William Law Bestall died 1867 is likely the father of the 1904 William, can't see his death cert yet.
Calendars of Will gives his wife as Catherine and address as Templelyon house

I think they can all be ruled out.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Wednesday 15 August 18 00:47 BST (UK)
Youíre probably correct but they could perhaps be cousins or 2nd cousins etc though, as it is too much of an unusual surname not to be connected in some way or another and because of the location being the same.
Someone did say to me years ago that there was a likely connection to William Law Bestall but didnít  say how, keeping in mind that Iím still not 100% sure about William Bestall born 1862 being the father of William in 1893.
If I can find siblings and cousins of William Bestall born 1862 I will be able to connect everything together, as it stands just  now Iím totally stuck
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Wednesday 15 August 18 09:09 BST (UK)




C Reg  Birth, Marriage and Death results for Besta*

Displaying results 1 - 97 of 97.   



http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mih/
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Wednesday 15 August 18 10:43 BST (UK)
Thank you some of the births of my grandfathers siblings are there including the marriage cert of my great grandfather and great grandmother but I still canít make the connection to which  Bestall family my great grandfather and great great grandfather were connected to. There is a mention of my great great grandfather being a farmer

Also I forgot to mention, I saw an online  photo years ago of a lady called Haidee Bestall and the resemblence to my grandfather is very similar, if my memory serves me correctly her father was Digby Bestall but still have no proof of connection.

If anyone has any information at all I would very much appreciate it as this has been driving me crazy for years. Quick recap my grandfather William born Wicklow 1893 to Margaret Corcoran and William Bestal born 1862 or 1864 . Possibility that William Bestal born 1862 or 1864 parents were William Bestall and Anne Cullen and was given the name of Valentine which was scored out and changed to William but Iím not 100% sure if wm Valentine is my gg grandfather
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Wednesday 15 August 18 10:55 BST (UK)
Some pre 1864 Marriages too... Rathdrum and Dublin South
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 15 August 18 13:16 BST (UK)
1862 Baptism of William
left hand page, 5th May
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633692#page/8/mode/1up

Have you gone through the rest of the register to see if they had any more children, also I'd look for a baptism of William sr as the other Bestalls appear to be COI it may be the case William converted in order to marry.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Wednesday 15 August 18 17:25 BST (UK)
Thank you, thatís the certificate where Valentine appears to have been changed to William, I guessed he may be my great grandfather due to the name Cullen and worked out rough year from his death certificate in 1902 where it states he was 39 when he passed, so it kind of fits. 

Do you happen to know which church that the baptism took place?

Re COI I have often wondered about that, there seems to be a mixture of religions under that surname.

The earliest records I found were in the 1600/1700 and the name was Bestel and the strange thing is
My grandfather baptism is Bestel and that name has followed through till current day in Scotland. I do realise though that back in the day a lot of the various spellings would be down to the registrar writing it as it sounded and probably some people not being able to read or write.

In a way in my case Iím lucky as itís quite an unusual name and only appears to be found mainly in Armagh and Wicklow, the odd time Dublin and elsewhere.

I have seen the above certificate but I couldnít remember which website it was on, so thank you for posting.  I wish there was a search by name facility as would be so much easier to look. Iíll definitely search through it and hopefully find other family members

Thanks again for your help
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 15 August 18 18:08 BST (UK)
What do you mean by due to the name Cullen? Has that name turned up somewhere else?

Don't know the church but it is Wicklow Parish
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0503
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Wednesday 15 August 18 19:22 BST (UK)
It has, John Cullen is one of the godparents mentioned on my grandfathers baptismal certificate in 1893. I know there are many Cullenís in Wicklow but given that Anne Cullen is mentioned as the mother of William Valentine Bestal in 1862 there could be some sort of connection. Anne Cullen may have been born 1830ís/40ís (thatís a guess though, same with William Valentineís father- another William Bestal) 
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 15 August 18 20:23 BST (UK)
It's bugging me that on the Bestal Corcoran marriage, the father William is a farmer yet I only find William Law in Griffith's Valuation and the Applotment books.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Wednesday 15 August 18 20:38 BST (UK)
Land Owners in Ireland 1876   Only Catherine and Eliza are mentioned...

https://www.failteromhat.com/lo1876/98.pdf
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 15 August 18 22:16 BST (UK)
Land Owners in Ireland 1876   Only Catherine and Eliza are mentioned...

https://www.failteromhat.com/lo1876/98.pdf
Catherine's husband William Law died 1867.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 15 August 18 22:26 BST (UK)
An Elizabeth Bestall died 21 July 1875 spinster of Leitrim Place Wicklow.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 15 August 18 22:55 BST (UK)
Is this yours?
https://www.ancestry.ca/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=3437&p=localities.britisles.ireland.wic.general
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 00:46 BST (UK)
It is, I posted that 7 years ago. The whole situation is strange as you say. Perhaps not all records on file yet or lost. Unless they moved about from farm to farm but you would think there would be some records on griffiths valuation at the very least.

Iíve been stuck at the same point for years 

I would have thought William would have popped up in someone elseís tree ( brother of) etc

Re Elizabeth Bestal who died in 1875, may I ask does it say who her parents were or who the informant was?
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 05:38 BST (UK)
Her cert isn't online yet, I was looking at the Will Calendars
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014900/005014900_00032.pdf

Farmers don't move around. Children sometimes fib about father's occupation.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 06:51 BST (UK)
Sorry I meant he may not have been a tennant farmer, just worked on various farms
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 07:18 BST (UK)
Sorry I meant he may not have been a tennant farmer, just worked on various farms


Exactly not a farmer an agricultural labourer.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 07:33 BST (UK)
William Bestel b1893 (my grandfather) siblings were
Bridget born Wicklow, Ireland Married William Martin in Ireland
Margaret married to .... Kelly.
Mary Anne Bistal b13 Sep 1888 in Avoca, Baptised 16 Sep 1888, Avoca, address Balinastraw, godparents Brian &Maria Laughlin
John (aka Jack) Bestial b12 Oct 1890 ē Aughrm, Ireland Baptised 13 Oct 1890 as address Mongnacool, parish Aughrim, godparents Andrew & Margaret Cosgrove,
Edward b1896
Francis b1898 Wicklow
 

No other children apart from William (father of the above children) are known for Bestal Cullen parents.
If William was their only child he would have taken over the family farm, but if that was the case why is he moving around so much.
Either he's not the eldest child or his father wasn't a farmer, or they lost the farm for some reason.

Apart from the marriage to Margaret Corcoran is there any record of where William comes from, did he and Margaret also move to Scotland? Are they in any census?
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 10:35 BST (UK)
William Bestal and Margaret Corcoran were married on 2 Jul 1888 Avoca Williamís address shows as Ballinakill, Margaretís address - Bariniskey, witnesses John & Mary Sullivan

I donít know when they moved to Scotland but it appears it was between 1901-1902 as William b1962, the only record I have of him is his death certificate in 1902, looks as though he just missed the census of 1901.

However their daughters Bridget and Margaret came over to Scotland before 1901 and theyíre on the Scottish census

I got the impression that they all returned to Ireland after Williams death and returned to Scotland later which was definitley before 1914. Iím not 100% sure about that though.

I was told one of their sons remained in wicklow Ireland to work in a family members farm and died in Ireland. Iím not sure of the details of when he returned and when he died
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 16 August 18 10:56 BST (UK)
Have you not checked Census?

1901 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mil/

1911 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mim/
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: dathai on Thursday 16 August 18 11:08 BST (UK)
Edward ? transcribed as Bestit age 65  death in 1960 looks like Bestil on cert
informant Edward Wolohan employer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1960/04339/4122307.pdf

informant same address ?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1910/09992/5634032.pdf
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 11:37 BST (UK)
Nice find dathai.

The 1902 death cert, what does it say?
Was he still married, is there any trace of his wife in Scotland?
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 16 August 18 11:54 BST (UK)
C Reg Birth, Marriage and Death results for Best*
Area - Rathdrum   http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mio/

Can look Dublin etc via list on left!!
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 13:20 BST (UK)
Thank you all so much, at least we know what happened to Edward now, it was mentioned in the family that he never married. No wonder I couldnít find details of him. It would be nice to find out what happened to him if he was cremated or buried and where etc. Thatís a task for another day though.

I canít figure out what cause of death was due to handwriting and I think it says Ballinastraw. Do you think Iím right. Can anyone decipher cause of death, where and informants name as very hard to read

Ballinastraw is mentioned on Mary Anneís baptismal certificate
Ballinakill and Bariniskey are mentioned on William and Margaretís marriage cert
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: dathai on Thursday 16 August 18 13:29 BST (UK)
Looks like Edward was registered in Dublin no first name born 23rd June 1895 at Blackhorse Lane or Rotunda Hospital
number 273
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02217/1836784.pdf
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 16 August 18 13:34 BST (UK)
Thank you all so much, at least we know what happened to Edward now, it was mentioned in the family that he never married. No wonder I couldnít find details of him. It would be nice to find out what happened to him if he was cremated or buried and where etc. Thatís a task for another day though.

I canít figure out what cause of death was due to handwriting and I think it says Ballinastraw. Do you think Iím right. Can anyone decipher cause of death, where and informants name as very hard to read

Ballinastraw is mentioned on Mary Anneís baptismal certificate
Ballinakill and Bariniskey are mentioned on William and Margaretís marriage cert


Link?
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 16 August 18 13:36 BST (UK)
Did you look on Census at Religion of them?
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 13:42 BST (UK)
Sinnan, yes he was still married, Margaret Corcoran died in Scotland as a widow on 8th April 1936 aged 80. She outlived her daughter Bridget and possibly Margaret
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 14:59 BST (UK)
Hallmark, theyíre not on the 1901/1911 census as they were in Scotland at that point. Thanks for posting the census
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 16 August 18 15:01 BST (UK)
I meant name in general....
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 15:07 BST (UK)
Sinnan, yes he was still married, Margaret Corcoran died in Scotland as a widow on 8th April 1936 aged 80. She outlived her daughter Bridget and possibly Margaret


So what is on the 1901 and 1911 Census of Scotland for the Margaret and the rest of the family?
Was William on the 1901 Census of Scotland?
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 15:36 BST (UK)
Ok thanks, looks like quite a few Bestallís on the census but sadly none of my ancestors. i presume previous census records were lost in the fire/destroyed 

Thatís probably whatís causing me the hassle of linking the family properly to their forebears
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 15:56 BST (UK)
Sinnan, the only members in the census of Scotland I can find are Bridget and Margaret on the 1901 census, they were the only children of William and Margaret who married in Ireland and appear to have moved to Scotland with their husbands prior to their mother and father and other siblings moving to Scotland. It looks like their parents and other siblings moved just after census taken.

Re 1911 census, I canít find anything again for any of them again apart from their 2 daughters and that may tie in with the story that after William died in 1902 in Scotland that she went back to Ireland with her younger children. They definitely came back to Scotland before 1914 by the looks of it as Mary Anne married in Scotland 1914 and John was recorded as missing in action in 1915 during the First World War, later presumed dead but found later.

However perhaps they didn't go back at all. I will recheck again in case of further spelling errors but Iím sure I tried all the variations of spellings before

Due to all the name variants itís a bit of a nightmare

Thank you all for your help.

The main thing Iím looking for is details of Wm (Valentine) Bestal b1862 parents who was William senior the farmer related to and did he have any siblings and any siblings of William Valentine junior b1862. If I get any info re them it may make the whole thing a lot easier.


Iím also trying to get any info on John Corcoran and Rose Carroll. When Margaret their daughter married she lived at Bariniskey. I know the surnames if Corcoran and Caroll are going to be tricky due to the immense amount of people with these surnames. Only thing I know is Brigida Corcoran is mentioned on the marriage cert. I donít know if she is Margaretís sister, Aunty, cousin or even a niece
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 16:01 BST (UK)
Sorry I meant he may not have been a tennant farmer, just worked on various farms


Exactly not a farmer an agricultural labourer.

William b1862 was an agricultural labourer but his father is noted as a farmer
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 16:05 BST (UK)
Thank you all so much, at least we know what happened to Edward now, it was mentioned in the family that he never married. No wonder I couldnít find details of him. It would be nice to find out what happened to him if he was cremated or buried and where etc. Thatís a task for another day though.

I canít figure out what cause of death was due to handwriting and I think it says Ballinastraw. Do you think Iím right. Can anyone decipher cause of death, where and informants name as very hard to read

Ballinastraw is mentioned on Mary Anneís baptismal certificate
Ballinakill and Bariniskey are mentioned on William and Margaretís marriage cert


Link?

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1960/04339/4122307.pdf
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 16:07 BST (UK)
Sorry I meant he may not have been a tennant farmer, just worked on various farms


Exactly not a farmer an agricultural labourer.

William b1862 was an agricultural laboriurnbut his father is noted as a farmer

But he doesn't appear to have a farm, so was William fibbing to make his background sound better.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 16 August 18 16:10 BST (UK)
coronary thrombosis
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 16:24 BST (UK)
Sorry I meant he may not have been a tennant farmer, just worked on various farms


Exactly not a farmer an agricultural labourer.

William b1862 was an agricultural laboriurnbut his father is noted as a farmer

But he doesn't appear to have a farm, so was William fibbing to make his background sound better.

William born 1862 never at any point claimed he was a farmer, itís his father William senior married to Anne Cullen who claims he was a farmer.  William b1862 and his son Edward worked on a farm
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 16:31 BST (UK)
Sorry I meant he may not have been a tennant farmer, just worked on various farms


Exactly not a farmer an agricultural labourer.

William b1862 was an agricultural laboriurnbut his father is noted as a farmer

But he doesn't appear to have a farm, so was William fibbing to make his background sound better.

William born 1862 never at any point claimed he was a farmer, itís his father William senior married to Anne Cullen who claims he was a farmer.  William b1862 and his son Edward worked on a farm


On the marriage to Corcoran William claims his father is a farmer.
I'm saying he may have fibed and his father was a Labourer like he was.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 16:34 BST (UK)
Sinnan, yes he was still married, Margaret Corcoran died in Scotland as a widow on 8th April 1936 aged 80. She outlived her daughter Bridget and possibly Margaret


This just dawned on me.
I was looking for Anne Cullen.
Did William and his wife Anne Cullen go to Scotland?
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow (William and Anne)
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 16:43 BST (UK)
William and Anne didnít come to Scotland, it was their son William and his wife Margaret Corcoran who came to Scotland. He came for work and better pay but sadly it didnít work out as he died within a year or just over a year of arriving and my great gran was left with a lot of children to bring up on her own.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 16:49 BST (UK)
Thereís too many Williams and itís causing a mix up.

What Iím looking for is the following:-

William Bestal and Anne Cullen (BMDís) and any siblings

William (Valentine) b1862 - any siblings

John Corcoran married to Rose Caroll parents of Margaret Corcoran  (any details) and further children.
On Wm Bestal and Mgt Corcoran marriage cert, there is a witness called Brigida Corcoran which could be Margaretís sister, aunt, niece or cousin.

Dathai has solved the mystery of Edward Bestal by finding his death certificate so I now have complete details of William and Margaretís children who all passed away in Scotland with the exception being Edward

If I can get any details of William and Anne and any siblings of William (their son) I may be able to solve everything
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 16 August 18 16:50 BST (UK)
Erected by WILLIAM BESTALL Esq of Templelyon House | in memory of his son |
RICHARD FREDERICK BESTALL A.B.,T.C.D.L., R.C.S.I. | who departed September 21st
1856 | at the age of 28 years | also the above named | WILLIAM LAW BESTALL who
|died May the 30th 1867 | aged 67



http://search.freefind.com/find.html?oq=bestal&id=13812782&pageid=r&_charset_=UTF-8&bcd=%C3%B7&scs=1&s=wicklowstones&query=bestall&Find=Search&mode=ALL&search=all



To the memory of Audley CALDWELL late of the Forttown who entered into life
eternal on the 14th of October 1859 aged 60 years  also of Frederick LAW
youngest son of Margaret BESTALL who departed this life on 21st June 1860 aged
5 years also of his mother Margaret BESTALL eldest daughter of Audley CALDWELL
who exchanged mortality for life on the 19th of September 1861 aged 34 years
also James Audley second son of the late Audley CALDWELL, Esqr of Forttown who
died 28th September 1877 aged 47.


http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/cemeteries/derg-cem.txt
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 16:56 BST (UK)
Thank you, I need to find the link if any, I suppose thereís a slight possibility that wm law who died in 1967 may be the William who was married to Anne Cullen but that would have meant he would have been 62 when William was born.

I think itís more likely they were cousins/uncles etc

It was pointed out to me before of the possible connection but no details of the connection came forward
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 17:10 BST (UK)
coronary thrombosis

Thanks
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 16 August 18 17:13 BST (UK)
Sometimes one has to go all over the place to try to find someone........

They were in Tyrone too!


 Charlotte Elizabeth Bestall around 1905.  She was born 16 Aug 1880 in Creeduff, Castleberg.  Her parents are Audley William J Bestall born about 1848 in Creeduff, Castlederg.....



http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=272018.0
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 16 August 18 17:16 BST (UK)
Thank you, I need to find the link if any, I suppose thereís a slight possibility that wm law who died in 1967 may be the William who was married to Anne Cullen but that would have meant he would have been 62 when William was born.

I think itís more likely they were cousins/uncles etc

It was pointed out to me before of the possible connection but no details of the connection came forward


Not impossible!


( Guinness works wonders!!   ;D  ;D   )
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 17:22 BST (UK)
Now thatís an idea perhaps William Bestal and Anne Cullen may have lived in Tyrone before moving to Ireland so Iíll look there.

Iíll take a wee break just now as my head is thumping
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 17:33 BST (UK)
William Law who died in 1867 was married to Catherine.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 17:36 BST (UK)
William and Anne didnít come to Scotland, it was their son William and his wife Margaret Corcoran who came to Scotland. He came for work and better pay but sadly it didnít work out as he died within a year or just over a year of arriving and my great gran was left with a lot of children to bring up on her own.

If William could be found in 1901 it might say where he was born, hopefully not just Ireland, which would prove if he was born in Wicklow or was just living there when he married Margaret.
If not born in Wicklow than William and Anne Cullen wouldn't be his parents if yes than there doesn't appear to be anyone else who could be.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 17:41 BST (UK)
Hello, Iím looking for any information re my ancestors from Wicklow, in particular my great grandfather who appears to be William (Valentine) Bestal b1862 Wicklow. Iím not 100% sure he is my great grandfather but a name Cullen appears on two certificates and the dates kind of tie in.

Iím looking for any information re William Bestal b1862 his siblings and siblings of his mother Anne Cullen and father William Bestal as this is where Iím at a loss.

If anyone has information at all to connect William Valentine b1862 to William Bestal b1893 ( my grandfather)  I would really appreciate it.

Hereís what Iíve got so far:-
William Bestal Baptised 5 may 1862, county Wicklow (could be my great grandfather), online baptismal certificate states his name was Valentine Bestal but Valentine is scored out and replaced by by William.
William (Valentineís) parents were William Bestal and Anne Cullen (possibly my great great grandparents) sponsor on baptismal certificate is Mary Reilly. 

I think there is a strong possibility these are the parents of William Bestal (my grandfather) as the date and the name Cullen ties in with regards to my grandfathers baptismal certificate as per info below.

My gandfather was William Bestall (photo attached, (need to scroll to the right)) was baptised 1/2/1893 Rathdrum, Wicklow. Godparents John Cullen and Brigida Corcoran, parents William Bestal and Margaret Corcoran.

His mother Margaret Corcoran Baptised 22 Jun 1855 Avoca,co Wicklow.
Margaretís parents were Rose Carroll and John Corcoran.
sponsors/godparents on her baptismal certificate are Richard Murray & Catherine Goggins

William Bestal and Margaret Corcoran were married on 2 Jul 1888 Avoca Williams address shows as Ballinakill, Margaretís address - Bariniskey, witnesses John & Mary Sullivan. Both died in Scotland

William Bestall b1893 (my grandfather) siblings were
Bridget born Wicklow, Ireland Married William Martin in Ireland
Margaret married to .... Kelly.
Mary Anne Bistal b13 Sep 1888 in Avoca, Baptised 16 Sep 1888, Avoca, address Balinastraw, godparents Brian &Maria Laughlin
John (aka Jack) Bestial b12 Oct 1890 ē Aughrm, Ireland Baptised 13 Oct 1890 as address Mongnacool, parish Aughrim, godparents Andrew & Margaret Cosgrove,
Edward b1895 Rotunda house Dublin
Francis b1898 Wicklow
All died in Kilsyth Scotland apart from Edward who possibly  died in Ireland possibly Wicklow as he went back to Ireland to work for relations

Timeline in brief
William Bestal and Anne Cullen
William (Valentine) Bestal b1862 Wicklow - son
William Bestall b1893 Wicklow probably son and my grandfather

If anyone has any information as to which Bestall/Bestal family William Bestall husband of Anne Cullen is connected to it and if William Bestal married to Margaret Corcoran is William (Valentineís son) it would help me a greatly as Iíve been trying to find out for many years and have got nowhere.

Itís clear that the name should either be Bestal or Bestall, I have an old money box with the surname Bestall on it so it appears either my  grandfather or great grandfather knew the correct spelling but registrars heard it and wrote it differently both in Ireland and Scotland

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 17:41 BST (UK)
Hello, Iím looking for any information re my ancestors from Wicklow, in particular my great grandfather who appears to be William (Valentine) Bestal b1862 Wicklow. Iím not 100% sure he is my great grandfather but a name Cullen appears on two certificates and the dates kind of tie in.

Iím looking for any information re William Bestal b1862 his siblings and siblings of his mother Anne Cullen and father William Bestal as this is where Iím at a loss.

If anyone has information at all to connect William Valentine b1862 to William Bestal b1893 ( my grandfather)  I would really appreciate it.

Hereís what Iíve got so far:-
William Bestal Baptised 5 may 1862, county Wicklow (could be my great grandfather), online baptismal certificate states his name was Valentine Bestal but Valentine is scored out and replaced by by William.
William (Valentineís) parents were William Bestal and Anne Cullen (possibly my great great grandparents) sponsor on baptismal certificate is Mary Reilly. 

I think there is a strong possibility these are the parents of William Bestal (my grandfather) as the date and the name Cullen ties in with regards to my grandfathers baptismal certificate as per info below.

My gandfather was William Bestel (photo attached, (need to scroll to the right)) was baptised 1/2/1893 Rathdrum, Wicklow. Godparents John Cullen and Brigida Corcoran, parents William Bestal and Margaret Corcoran.

His mother Margaret Corcoran Baptised 22 Jun 1855 Avoca,co Wicklow.
Margaretís parents were Rose Carroll and John Corcoran.
sponsors/godparents on her baptismal certificate are Richard Murray & Catherine Goggins

William Bestal and Margaret Corcoran were married on 2 Jul 1888 Avoca Williams address shows as Ballinakill, Margaretís address - Bariniskey, witnesses John & Mary Sullivan. Both died in Scotland

William Bestel b1893 (my grandfather) siblings were
Bridget born Wicklow, Ireland Married William Martin in Ireland
Margaret married to .... Kelly.
Mary Anne Bistal b13 Sep 1888 in Avoca, Baptised 16 Sep 1888, Avoca, address Balinastraw, godparents Brian &Maria Laughlin
John (aka Jack) Bestial b12 Oct 1890 ē Aughrm, Ireland Baptised 13 Oct 1890 as address Mongnacool, parish Aughrim, godparents Andrew & Margaret Cosgrove,
Edward b1896
Francis b1898 Wicklow
All died in Kilsyth Scotland apart from Edward who apparently died in Ireland possibly Wicklow as he went back to Ireland to work for relations

Timeline in brief
William Bestal and Anne Cullen
William (Valentine) Bestal b1862 Wicklow - son
William Bestall b1893 Wicklow probably son and my grandfather

If anyone has any information as to which Bestall/Bestal family William Bestall husband of Anne Cullen is connected to it and if William Bestal married to Margaret Corcoran is William (Valentineís son) it would help me a greatly as Iíve been trying to find out for many years and have got nowhere.

Itís clear that the name should either be Bestal or Bestall, I have an old money box with the surname Bestall on it.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 17:44 BST (UK)
Hello, Iím looking for any information re my ancestors from Wicklow, in particular my great grandfather who appears to be William (Valentine) Bestal b1862 Wicklow. Iím not 100% sure he is my great grandfather but a name Cullen appears on two certificates and the dates kind of tie in.

Iím looking for any information re William Bestal b1862 his siblings and siblings of his mother Anne Cullen and father William Bestal as this is where Iím at a loss.

If anyone has information at all to connect William Valentine b1862 to William Bestal b1893 ( my grandfather)  I would really appreciate it.

Hereís what Iíve got so far:-
William Bestal Baptised 5 may 1862, county Wicklow (could be my great grandfather), online baptismal certificate states his name was Valentine Bestal but Valentine is scored out and replaced by by William.
William (Valentineís) parents were William Bestal and Anne Cullen (possibly my great great grandparents) sponsor on baptismal certificate is Mary Reilly. 

I think there is a strong possibility these are the parents of William Bestal (my grandfather) as the date and the name Cullen ties in with regards to my grandfathers baptismal certificate as per info below.

My gandfather was William Bestall (photo attached, (need to scroll to the right)) was baptised 1/2/1893 Rathdrum, Wicklow. Godparents John Cullen and Brigida Corcoran, parents William Bestal and Margaret Corcoran.

His mother Margaret Corcoran Baptised 22 Jun 1855 Avoca,co Wicklow.
Margaretís parents were Rose Carroll and John Corcoran.
sponsors/godparents on her baptismal certificate are Richard Murray & Catherine Goggins

William Bestal and Margaret Corcoran were married on 2 Jul 1888 Avoca Williams address shows as Ballinakill, Margaretís address - Bariniskey, witnesses John & Mary Sullivan. Both died in Scotland

William Bestall b1893 (my grandfather) siblings were
Bridget born Wicklow, Ireland Married William Martin in Ireland
Margaret married to .... Kelly.
Mary Anne Bistal b13 Sep 1888 in Avoca, Baptised 16 Sep 1888, Avoca, address Balinastraw, godparents Brian &Maria Laughlin
John (aka Jack) Bestial b12 Oct 1890 ē Aughrm, Ireland Baptised 13 Oct 1890 as address Mongnacool, parish Aughrim, godparents Andrew & Margaret Cosgrove,
Edward b1896
Francis b1898 Wicklow
All died in Kilsyth Scotland apart from Edward who apparently died in Ireland possibly Wicklow as he went back to Ireland to work for relations

Timeline in brief
William Bestal and Anne Cullen
William (Valentine) Bestal b1862 Wicklow - son
William Bestall b1893 Wicklow probably son and my grandfather

If anyone has any information as to which Bestall/Bestal family William Bestall husband of Anne Cullen is connected to it and if William Bestal married to Margaret Corcoran is William (Valentineís son) it would help me a greatly as Iíve been trying to find out for many years and have got nowhere.

Itís clear that the name should either be Bestal or Bestall, I have an old money box with the surname Bestall on it.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 17:50 BST (UK)
Thank you, thatís the certificate where Valentine appears to have been changed to William, I guessed he may be my great grandfather due to the name Cullen and worked out rough year from his death certificate in 1902 where it states he was 39 when he passed, so it kind of fits. 

Do you happen to know which church that the baptism took place?

Re COI I have often wondered about that, there seems to be a mixture of religions under that surname.

The earliest records I found were in the 1600/1700 and the name was Bestel and the strange thing is
My grandfather baptism is Bestel but birth certificate shows his surname as Bestall. I do realise though that back in the day a lot of the various spellings would be down to the registrar/priest writing it as it sounded and probably some people not being able to read or write.

In a way in my case Iím lucky as itís quite an unusual name and only appears to be found mainly in Armagh and Wicklow, the odd time Dublin and elsewhere.

I have seen the above certificate but I couldnít remember which website it was on, so thank you for posting.  I wish there was a search by name facility as would be so much easier to look. Iíll definitely search through it and hopefully find other family members

Thanks again for your help
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 17:54 BST (UK)
William Bestel/Bestall b1893 (my grandfather) siblings were
Bridget born Wicklow, Ireland Married William Martin in Ireland
Margaret married to .... Kelly.
Mary Anne Bistal b13 Sep 1888 in Avoca, Baptised 16 Sep 1888, Avoca, address Balinastraw, godparents Brian &Maria Laughlin
John (aka Jack) Bestial b12 Oct 1890 ē Aughrm, Ireland Baptised 13 Oct 1890 as address Mongnacool, parish Aughrim, godparents Andrew & Margaret Cosgrove,
Edward b1895 Dublin
Francis b1898 Wicklow
 

No other children apart from William (father of the above children) are known for Bestal Cullen parents.
If William was their only child he would have taken over the family farm, but if that was the case why is he moving around so much.
Either he's not the eldest child or his father wasn't a farmer, or they lost the farm for some reason.

Apart from the marriage to Margaret Corcoran is there any record of where William comes from, did he and Margaret also move to Scotland? Are they in any census?
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 17:56 BST (UK)
Sorry I meant he may not have been a tennant farmer, just worked on various farms


Exactly not a farmer an agricultural labourer.

William b1862 was an agricultural labourer but his father is noted as a farmer

But he doesn't appear to have a farm, so was William fibbing to make his background sound better.

William born 1862 never at any point claimed he was a farmer, itís his father William senior married to Anne Cullen who claims he was a farmer.  William b1862 and his son Edward worked on a farm


On the marriage to Corcoran William claims his father is a farmer.
I'm saying he may have fibed and his father was a Labourer like he was.

William b1862 has never claimed to be a farmer, itís his father who is stated is a  farmer. Hope you understand, thereís nothing to say that William senior wasnít a farmer so will have to presume that what he has said is correct and that his son William was a farm laborour probably for his father who was a farmer. Thereís no proof William b1862 has lied in any certificates, if he was going to lie he would have said he was a farmer as well or another occupation better than a labourer, heís been honest and said he was a laborour.

Makes no difference as to what his job was anyway as itís his father and siblings Iím looking for.

William (Valentine) Bestal son of Wm and Anne occupation laborour, father farmer https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10776/5930195.pdf

Thatís what has been written

Anyway Iím trying to get the details of William and Anne and any other children I have all the details of William married to Margaret that I need

It could also be as you said earlier that perhaps his father lost the farm or an elder sibling took over it, any children working for their father who ran a farm would be a farm laborour Iím sure
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 17:58 BST (UK)
Tidied up a few spelling errors and fixed William Bestel b1893 to shown as william Bestall as per newly found birth certificate 
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 16 August 18 18:43 BST (UK)


Anyway Iím trying to get the details of William and Anne and any other children I have all the details of William married to Margaret that I need



Yes we know but the only way to find them is clues for their son.
The only evidence they ever existed is one baptism record. Yes?
No deaths
No land records
No wills
No other children
No marriage.

They may not even be the parents of your William who married Margaret Corcoran. Which is why I was trying to find out as much as possible about him to prove that he was born in Wicklow.
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: dathai on Thursday 16 August 18 19:02 BST (UK)
Have you an error in your first post Bridget married William Martin
Bridget Corcoran married William Martin 1899 note the witness
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1899/10381/5779902.pdf

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Arklow_Urban/Marsh/1814245/
born 1884
no 2
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02693/1991895.pdf

1909
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1909/10027/5647458.pdf

1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Kilbride/Shelton/896338/

parents marriage 1881
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11019/8029234.pdf

Rose Corcoran,widow death 1891 informant John Sullivan son in law
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06082/4735162.pdf



Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 21:10 BST (UK)
Sinnan, I understand what you are saying, but perhaps the records arenít live yet or miss spellings once again making it difficult to find, or even destroyed in the fire or damaged so they are unable to read.

I havent had time yet to go through all the baptism and  marriage records yet that one of you posted earlier as there are so many and with no definite guideline date the whole lot would need to be looked at, that is something I am working through.

I suppose there is a possibility that William and Anne came from elsewhere but I find it unlikely given the fact that there are so many Bestallís recorded in Ireland.

I am almost certain that William and Anne are the correct parents because the dates tie in exactly and thereís the mention of Cullen on two records albeit Cullen being a common name. However the dates are the real clue

 
Anyway if I find something when I complete the search of the old records I will post, I was hoping someone out there may already have information as it is no mean task and I didnít know about these records before or I would have already checked them

Thanks again

Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 22:27 BST (UK)
Dathai, youíve been great finding all this info. How on Earth youíre finding this when I canít goodness knows, You obviously know what your doing.

So thereís two Bridget Corcoranís for definite. I knew there were two, I thought one was possibly a sister of Margret and was under the impression Margaret had a daughter called Bridget but this is now even more confusing as it may look like thereís 2 Bridget Corcoranís and one Bridget Bestal

The record your showing me shows that Bridget was Margaretís sister, I suspected she had a sister called Bridget (Brigida) is in Margaretís marriages certificate, there seems to be two records (one scored out) not just for Bridget Corcoran and wm Martin for another marriage of Miles Mcdonald and Sarah Maginnes. Donít know why record is scored out 

Iíll need to re check the Bridget Corcoran and Williams details again as I canít think offhand. I do know that Bridget Martin previously Bestal and married to William Martin died in 1928 in Scotland and we were under the impression she was Margaretís daughter so I am even more confused now as it now looks like her sister

I will dig out whatever manual records Iíve printed off and hopefully update tomorrow

Thank you so much for this (the question now is who is the Bridget Corcoran witness of Bridget Corcoranís marriage). Iím more confused than ever but thank you for finding it. Iíll need to do more digging as to who the other Bridget Corcoran is
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Thursday 16 August 18 23:01 BST (UK)
Dathai, Just noticed youíve also found Rose Corcoran death cert, thank you

I canít understand why I havenít been able to find them as I out the name in correctly, anyway youíve been brilliant in helping me out
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: dathai on Friday 17 August 18 12:24 BST (UK)
If William Martin and Bridget had children in Scotland their birth certs will give maiden name of mother
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Friday 17 August 18 14:35 BST (UK)
Iíve still to check Dathai, been caught up this morning, I will look into that thanks and thank you for all your help, youíve been great
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Friday 17 August 18 17:04 BST (UK)
Dathai. 

A wee question, do you know why certain records can be viewed and others canít. I had a quick look for the death of John Corcoran between 1855 and 1891. Records can be viewed after 1877 but records before 1877 canít be viewed  even although record is there. No worries if you donít  know.

 I find that strange as itís the opposite here and perhaps thatís also what is hampering me finding records 
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: dathai on Friday 17 August 18 19:02 BST (UK)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/what-years-are-covered-by-the-historic-records-of-births-marriages-and-deaths

they will be onlne   eventually
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Friday 17 August 18 19:04 BST (UK)
An update ro Website due in November is supposed to provide Images for those without Images....
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Friday 17 August 18 22:22 BST (UK)
Dathai and Hallmark, thank you I might get some answers when theyíre updated. Thanks again

Havenít had time today to dig out manual copies of Scottish and Irish details that I have, not check Scottish records. Too busy with work but Iíve managed a quick online look for some Irish records

Hopefully I will get a chance on Sunday

Thank you both
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Friday 17 August 18 22:27 BST (UK)
....or get more questions!!   ;D
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Saturday 18 August 18 15:12 BST (UK)
 Itís never ending really :)
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: hallmark on Saturday 18 August 18 15:20 BST (UK)
I agree!
Title: Re: Bestal/Bestall of Wicklow
Post by: Bernie12 on Monday 15 July 19 21:52 BST (UK)
Found Margaret and her children in the 1911 census of Scotland. It was a difficult find and had to get help from someone else. Reason the surname was incorrectly recorded on the census. Instead of starting with a B, it was interpreted as a P. All born in Ireland. Still hunting through the 1901 census. However when William and Margaret's children were old enough Margaret returned to Avoca between 1911-1914 to live before returning to Scotland again.