RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: rowan35 on Wednesday 15 August 18 17:13 BST (UK)
-
Hi there,
I'm trying to track down the origins of my ancestor Charles McDougal who has a rather confusing history. I was hoping someone might be able to help me ??? This is what I've found so far...
He was born about 1813 according to the 1851 and 1871 censuses. He is listed as being born in Germany, but it also says British Subject.
He next appears marrying a woman called Jane Kahle on 4th Dec 1837 in Stepney, London. She has a rather complicated history. She is listed as a widow on the marriage certificate, and I've found her maiden name is Lusby. She appears to have married a man called Johann Kahle in 1831 in Kingston upon Hull. She possibly had two daughters with this first husband, called Eliza and Elizabeth. I haven't found out what happened to these daughters or when her first husband died.
The witnesses for the McDougal wedding also had germanic names - Ann KOHFAHL and Ernst KOHFAHL. It seems there was a german community in Stepney at the time, perhaps this is how she met her second german husband?
Anyway, Charles lists his father as a John McDougal, profession 'Gent' on the marriage certificate. However, I have not been able to find any John McDougal from Germany, just a rough date of birth of 1795. Charles' profession is a cigar maker.
I think Charles and Jane had six children: Carl, Francis, Sameul, Anne, Thomas and Eliza.
Charles appears to have died in 1871 in Islington, London.
My questions are numerous! Charles' name changes in various records, some of his children record him as 'Carl McDougal' instead of Charles in their marriage certificates, a hint to an anglicizing of his name? McDougal is not a very german name, so did he change it when he came to England? If so, did he change it from something similar or did he just pick McDougal out of the air! Or was his father also a British subject who happened to be living in Germany and so Charles was born there?
I found this great discussion on the same ancestors which gave me a lot of the above information:
https://www.british-genealogy.com/archive/index.php/t-54069.html
I've looked on Ancestry and Familysearch but just can't seem to find anything that fits. I've tried looking for more germanic names too but no luck.
So any help or suggestions of where to look and what to look for would be greatly appreciated. It would be great if I could work out where he came from! Thanks :)
-
Just to give a start if he states British subject it means at least his father was British.
So he's a British subject born overseas.
-
Daughter from first marriage Eliza Jane Matilda Kahle baptized 3 May 1833 St Peter Liverpool, her death is registered Hull, J quarter 1840 Vol.22 page 271 she was 7 years old.
-
Johann Diedrich Kahle was also a cigar maker, Jane could have met her 2nd husband via the trade
-
Daughter Elizabeth Kahle baptized 2 October 1837 Holy Trinity Hull, married John Whaley 11 November 1860 St Paul Sculcoates Yorkshire.
Two months later her mother is marrying Charles Mc Dougal at St. Dunstan's in Stepney.
This daughter stayed in Hull but who with? she is not with her mother 1841 Stepney nor 1851.
ADDED I saw only a transcription of the marriage it would be good to see the original and if she listed her father as deceased plus witness names.
Charles and Jane McDougal' daughter Ann was born in Hull Yorkshire December Quarter 1844 mothers maiden name given as Kahle, her previous married name not strictly her maiden name
-
Other children of Charles Mc Dougal and Jane from GRO index
Carl registered Stepney 1839 mothers maiden name Lusby
Francis - Stepney 1840 mothers maiden name Kahle
Samuel - Stepney 1842 mothers maiden name Lusby
Ann -as previous Hull 1844 -Kahle
Thomas -Stepney 1844 --Kahle
Eliza --Hackney Union 1849 -- Lusby
Jane gave both her real maiden name and her previous married name on the children registration
-
Wondering how common the Charles McDougal (born around 1813) name was in England itself?
On "The Genealogist" site 1811-1911 Alnwick The Duke's School Register, Nothumberland his name appears in a search. Alwick is near Scotland
Being Born in 1813, King George the 3rd was the ruling monarch of England (but wasn't he the King of Hanover in Germany too?)
-
Thank you everyone for your replies!
Lots of questions surrounding this family!
I find it very strange that Jane did not take her daughters with her to London (or so it appears) and I wonder who was looking after them. Maybe I can find Elizabeth Kahle in the 1841 census and that will give a clue.
Also strange that Charles and Jane's daughter Ann was born in Hull, while the rest of the children were born in London - perhaps they were visiting Elizabeth/other family up there?
In regards to censuses, I've found the family in 1841, 51, 61, 71 and 81 (Charles died in 1878).
A couple of things of note, in the 1841 census, Charles and his son are down as 'Carl', not Charles, but in 1851 Charles Sn has changed it to Charles while his son is still Carl. But in 1871 the son also changes in to Charles. So are they anglicising their names? Some of the children also refer to their father as 'Carl' on their marriage certificates.
Finally, Charles does not appear with the family in the 1861 and so far I have not found him elsewhere on the census. Was he living apart from the family, was he abroad visiting family? ???
I think the name Charles McDougal was not uncommon, especially in Northumberland/near Scotland.
And yes, due to the Hanover family on the throne at the time, there would have been connections between Britain and Germany, so perhaps not unusual for British subjects to be living/working there.
I still haven't managed to trace Charles/Carl in any german records so at a dead end there.
-
Check the Hull area newspapers for desertion notices by Johann Kahle, "I will not be responsible for debts made by"..... in case Jane ran off with Charles Mc Dougal.
Local not national newspapers may have death recorded.
-
Hi
1.
the place you are looking for could be Hamburg Altona.
A while ago, whilst looking for a John Macdonel, i found out that there was a British community in Hamburg at the beginning of the 19 century.
I found some info on John Macdonel in the state archive in Hamburg.
https://recherche.staatsarchiv.hamburg.de/ScopeQuery5.2/detail.aspx?ID=1972225
An online search for Macdougal (Mcdougal) brought no results.
2.
Hamburg was incorporated into the French Empire on February 13, 1811.
Therafter all records were administrated by the administrative office (Maire) of the French municipal council. The Hamburg State Archive has records of the children born in this period.
Register "Kinder im Register der Mairie 1811 - 1815"
https://recherche.staatsarchiv.hamburg.de/ScopeQuery5.2/detail.aspx?ID=1069832
To search these files you would have to visit the archive in Hamburg and search the records personnaly.
3.
Members and subscribers of the „Geneaology Community Hamburg“
https://vereine.genealogy.net/GGHH/
have access to these records.
One of their members kindly did a search on MacDougal and found a marriage record that could be a lead.
Plate, Johann, * abt. 1806, married. 05.03. 1837 HH-Petri Hamburg, Holzdamm
occupation servant, born in Hünkenbüttel / Stade, religion catholic
Macdougal, Hendrina Maria Cornelia Gertrude, * abt.1803, married 05.03. 1837 HH-Petri
born in Emmerich / Preußen, resident in Hamburg, Voglerswall; Spinster
Parents: Joannes Macdougal and Anna Catharina Richée
Child:Johanne Malwine Gertrudis Franziska * abt. 1837
married 11.04. 1865 HH-Petri with Evers
4.
By the way. You mentioned Ernst Kohfahl as a witness. A search for Kohfahl gave several hits
5.
This is all speculation. It´s a long shot, but could be of relevance.
What it does prove, is that there were Macdougal´s and Kohfahl´s living in Hamburg at the beginning of the 19 Century.
Dave
-
Hi
taking this a step further I did a search for MacDougal, Hamburg, in the European Library
Source: http://www.theeuropeanlibrary.org/tel4
Hamburger Nachrichten - Hamburg News
http://www.theeuropeanlibrary.org/tel4/newspapers/search?title=Hamburger+Nachrichten&hp=4&page=5&query=macdougal
21 hits. The texts are OCR scans and not very reliable so i´ll give you a quick gist of whats happening.
1. Hamburger Nachrichten 16 November 1799
II. Verzeichnis derjenigen, welche Bürger geworden.
List of people who have been accepted as Bürger (Citizen with all rights)
James Macdougal , Mietbedienter. (hireable servant)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Hamburger Nachrichten 12 September 1816
Bekanntmachung . Annoncement
Summons for various people to attend a hearing in a liquidation case
Herr Macdougal
------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Hamburger Nachrichten 27 Februar 1837
Marriage
Johann Plathe – Hendrina MacDougal
-------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Hamburger Nachrichten 16 March 1815
Advertisment for a newly opened restaurant in Hamburg, Heuberge
MacDougal
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. Hamburger Nachrichten 7 March 1838
List of men to be called up for military service
Macdougal, Alfred Johann Christian
etc. etc
-
Evidently, Hanover was the key. Cigar imports from Cuba? In 1813, the French were probably still occupying Hanover. As pointed out, King George III was both his Brittanic Majesty and His Hanoverian Majesty. 1813 was the year of the battles of Lutzen, Bautzen, Dresden and Leipzig (all Saxony). The French would have had to withdraw from Hanover after Leipzig.
Only thing is, British subjects in Hanover during the French occupation were probably interned, as were those caught in France in 1803.
Dates mentioned include 1830's. In 1837 when Victoria became Queen, George III's son the Duke of Cumberland became King George Vth of Hanover. He spent his time between Hanover and England, a very active member of the House of Lords.
-
My g g grandfather - Carl Freidrich Sacht - British Subject - born HELIGOLAND ...which was British owned but then swapped for Zanzibar with Germany - thus going from British to German ...Carl Freidrich Sacht became Charles .
there was quite a few Heligoland sailors settled in Liverpool - my own GG Grandfather being one - he settled here in Garston ,Liverpool - Liverpool was the busiest Sea Port in the world at the time - and lets face it - there can't have been many other jobs on that small island except being a sailor - and I notice Liverpool and Hull are mentioned - 2 huge seaports in the 1800s - so it might be worth checking to see if Charles was sailor and a British Subject born in Heligoland ? sadly Heligoland records were destroyed in WW2 and the island was uninhabited for many many years after the war - now it is a Holiday Haven for many Germans ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heligoland
-
Maybe this is that Kohfahl couple that is later in Stepney?
Marriage, 6 Feb 1831 St Michael, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Henry Ernest Kohfahl - Bachelor, this Parish
Ann Roe - Spinster, this Parish
Baptism: 5 Sep 1836 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Kohfahl - John Henry Ernest Kohfahl & Ann Roe
Phythian St Low Hill
Agar Maker
Baptism: 30 Nov 1836 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Emily Kohfahl - John Henry Ernest Kohfahl & Ann
Phythian St Low Hill
CIGAR MAKER
Along with the daughters, we might be abel to find them in census's to see if there is more than a casual link between the people involved?
update: Johan Heinrich Ernst ( John Henry Ernest) Kohfahl Born c 1802 in Hamburg, Germany.
-
Yes, by 1850 half the Worlds trade went in and out of Liverpool. Don't know whats happened since. What about the Port of London. I read that c1800 a thousand ships were in the Downs waitiing for some sort of easterly to take them up the Thames to London.
-
Johan Heinrich Ernst ( John Henry Ernest) Kohfahl Born c 1802 in Hamburg, Germany.
Heaps of Kohfahl information already covered
https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/54069-What-might-British-Subject-mean/page3
-
Eliza Jane Matilda Kahle died in 1840, in Hull, Yorkshire yet
Jane Kahle as married 1837 in Stepney, London.
Could Eiza have been with Lusby or Kahle relatives?
-
Thanks everyone, I'm new to family research so I appreciate all the help!
Davecapps, I did a search for that Hendrina Macdougal on Familysearch and found the following:
Name: Hendrica Maria Macdougall
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 24 May 1803
Christening Place: SANKT MARTINI KATHOLISCH,EMMERICH,RHEINLAND,PRUSSIA
Father's Name: Jois. Macdougall
Mother's Name: Annae Cath. Risje
I also found a sister:
Name: Antonetta Anna Macdougall
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 07 Sep 1804
Christening Place: SANKT MARTINI KATHOLISCH,EMMERICH,RHEINLAND,PRUSSIA
Father's Name: Johannis Macdougall
Mother's Name: Hannae Getrudis Richee
And a marriage between Joannes/Johannis and Hannae/Anna:
Name: Joannes Macdugall
Spouse's Name: Anna Catharina Risje
Event Date: 1800
Event Place: Sankt Martini Katholisch, Emmerich, Rheinland, Prussia
All in Emmerich, and I presume that's the same Hendrica that appears in the Hamburg newspaper search. But I can't find any other children and no Carl/Charles.
In regards to Ernst Kohfal the witness, this is copied from the British Geneology discussion I linked in my OP:
"I saw the posts about Ernst Kohfahl my great great great grandfather , his full name was JOHANN HEINRICH ERNST KOHFAHL and he was born in Hamburg 1802 , he first settled in Liverpool then moved to London and back again to Liverpool where he died in 1857 , he had a son Heinrich [ Henry ] Kohfahl who lived in Liverpool and he also was born in Hamburg in 1825."
So a possible Hamburg connection....
-
Altona was Danish I think?
Skoosh.
-
But I can't find any other children and no Carl/Charles.
More Familysearch - Another two children?
Joes. Cornelius Macdougal (John/Joseph Cornelius MacDougal - perhaps?)
birth: 2 January 1801
christening: 3 January 1801 SANKT MARTINI KATHOLISCH, EMMERICH, RHEINLAND, PRUSSIA
father: Jois. Macdougal
mother: Annae Catharinae Risje
Hendricus Joes. Macdougal (Henry Joseph MacDougal- perhaps?)
birth: 17 February 1802 / 17 March 1802
christening: 17 February 1802 / 17 March 1802 SANKT MARTINI KATHOLISCH, EMMERICH, RHEINLAND, PRUSSIA
father: Joes. Macdougal
mother: Annae Catharinae Risje
Is Jois and abreviation for the latin Johannis meaning John?
-
Just found Elizabeth Kahle's marriage announcement
Hull Packet 16 November 1860
November 11, at St Paul's Church, Sculcoates, Hull, by the Rev. G. J. Garton, B.A., curate (by license), Mr John Whaley , Hawes Aysgarth, to Miss Elizabeth Kahle, of London, niece of Mr Samuel Lusby, of this town.
-
Found the marriage online and neither John nor Elizabeth have named fathers.
Witnesses are Samuel amd Mary Lusby
-
Just checked this one on the off chance 1860 US and he turned out to be a cigar maker!
Carl Mc Dougal 50 England
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCHW-BSF
There is a passenger list for 1857
Chas Mcdougal Cigar Maker
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27RP-LDH
Just noting the records as he seems to have appeared from nowhere
-
Well spotted whiteout! So definitely a family of Macdougals there, but still no Carl!
So those records could be transcribed from Latin records, making "John MacDougal" "Johannis MacDougal".
Interesting about Elizabeth Kahle's marriage! I'm guessing Samuel is probably Jane Lusby's brother. Perhaps Elizabeth stayed up north with her uncle? If their fathers are not named does that mean they are deceased?
Willsy - that is an interesting discovery! Coincidence? Charles does not appear in the 1861 census, but he is back in 1871. Is it possible he went to America? But would he really go without his family and then return to live in the UK again? It's an interesting possibility!