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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: jila on Thursday 16 August 18 20:42 BST (UK)
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Trying to find the correct Karen ( Kajsa/ Caisa) Nilsdatter-born 1836 in Naes Varmland Sweden:
She married Johan Frederik Amundsen in Norway:
Name Caisa (Karen) Nilsdr
Gender Female
Age 27
Birth Date 1836
Marriage Date 14 Dec 1863
Marriage Place Domkirken, Oslo, Akershus, Norway
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Her daughter Anna:
Name Anna Marie Johansen
Gender Female
Birth Date 28 Jun 1865
Baptism Date 24 Jun 1866
Baptism Place Domkirken, Oslo, Akershus, Norway
Father Johan Fredrik Amundsen
Mother Kaisa Nilsen
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Census: 1865- she says she is from Fødested:Sverge Vermelandsass
1875-Karen Nielsen hm f Hjula 1836 Næs Sverige Værmeland
1900-Karen Amundsen 1836.06.21 Vermlandsnæs el kone Vaskekone
I had a internet helper in 2002- who searched for Karen ( kasja) birth parish record- but could not find her born 21 june 1836- but he did in fact find her registered on 3 July 1836: "Baptism
3 Jul 1836 • Huggenas Parish Varmland Sweden
Name: Kajsa Nilsdotter Female Baptism Date:3 Jul 1836 Baptism Place:HUGGENAS, VARMLAND Birth Date: 03 Jul 1836 Father: Nils Hansson Mother Lisa Olofdttr.. apparently the Julian calendar birth date 21 June 1836 = 3 July 1836 or vice versa.. as the two calendars were 12 dys difference in the dates in the year 1836
Can anyone help me confirm that the Karen (Cajsa/Kasja) who married Johan F. Amundsen is the same one who was born 3 July 1836 in Huggenas Varmland ?
I would love to solve this puzzle ?? can anyone help?
Thanks alot
Jila
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Hi
A difficult one this one.
According to her marriage record her father was Nils Nilsson. If we believe this to be correct then the Nils Hansson from Huggenäs is incorrect:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mj5/ - nr 112
This is the family in Huggenäs in 1852:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mj7/
Here is Cajsa Nilsdotter in Huggenäs in 1855:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mj8/ - she left for Hurum, Norway in 1855
Cajsa Nilsdotter birth in By Parish (not Huggenäs):
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mj9/
Also, I have never seen Swedish or Norwegian birth dates re-calculated according to the different calenders. So I do believe if she was born on 21 June 1836 then she was more than likely born on that date. I think we should be looking for this date of birth.
I'll keep looking for anything else.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Thanks for the reply- hope you are doing well:)
Yes it is a BIG problem for me :( If I can find both Karen ( Kajsa) then I would be able to exclude one of them ?
Is there any place I could find a record to confirm Karen ( Kasja/ Caisa) date of birth? Any records you can think of that might show the 21 June 1836 Date ?
All Censuses in Norway -1865,1875,1885,1900- all show she was born in Naes or Vermelandnaes. The 1900 Census is the only one that shows a date though..(the other just show 1836 )
Yes, the 14 Dec 1863 Marriage record does show her father as Nils Nilsen- but I am not sure that is correct? Can you find any more info about this Karen? Perhaps the Banns would help ? There must be some record - I just cant think where to look?
Can you find the Karen ( Kasja)( birth date-21 June 1836)- moving to Norway?? or on a Swedish family census? or on the 1855 Census
I have most of the records about the Karen(kajsa) born 3 July 1836- she moved to Hurum in 1855- as her father also moved there then. Nils Hansson Ringsfelt drown in the Fjord in 1861- so I thought perhaps Karen's brother Nils Nilsen (b.1843) was the witness at her wedding in place of her father?
I know my internet helper Tommy - was the one who couldnt find Kajsa/Caisa - born 21 June 1836 -the only one he could find is the one born 3 July 1836- then he explained the different calendars etc.. Apparently in 1836 -there was 12 days difference between the 2 Calendars.
I was just getting used to the Old Norwegian Genealogy site and then they changed it- I am sorry I am not very good at the new one..:(
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me :)
Cheers !
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Hi
I looked through the censuses and records looking for any clues in Norway but nothing came up. I'll post these originals but you probably have them:
1863 Marriage - Johan and Karen:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mjm/
1865 Birth - Anna Marie:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mjl/
1865 Census - Johan and Karen:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mjn/
1875 Birth - Caroline Else:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mjk/
1875 Census - Karen and daughters:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/52055/6278 - You'll have to go back 2 pages to see the opposite page
1885 Census - Karen:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mjo/
1900 Census - Karen:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mji/
1900 Census - Johan:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mjj/
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Thanks for the reply- hope you are doing well:)
Yes it is a BIG problem for me :( If I can find both Karen ( Kajsa) then I would be able to exclude one of them ?
Is there any place I could find a record to confirm Karen ( Kasja/ Caisa) date of birth? Any records you can think of that might show the 21 June 1836 Date ? .............................
I'm fine thanks.
As there seems nothing in Norway left to find apart from the banns I'll continue in Sweden. I'll see if I can find a bann somewhere.
Ian
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Hi again,
Yes, I think I have those records- Thanks.
I am not sure what info is given on the Banns, Best Man Statements or I think there is some court thing when a child is born out of wedlock-where the father has to pay money for the child- (I forget what it is called)
Karen's daughter Caroline Elise b. 19 July 1875 is my G grandmother. Her father is listed as Ole Nilsen- b. 1847 Hedmarken and I really need to confirm his parents etc also - I do not know much about him. I have a couple possible matches for him as he would be in Oslo in 1875 & there were several on the Census.. He is listed on Caroline's Birth, Marriage records so must have been in her life??
Caroline married Peter Bernhard Peterson/Pedersen-6 April 1896 • Paulos Menighet Olso Akershus Norway..Married under Karoline Elise Nilsen Father shown = Ole Nilsen Peter Petersen's father= klaudius Magnus Pedersen..
Peter & Caroline had several children prior to their marriage :Spouse & Children
Peter Pete Bernhard (DNA) Pedersen Peterson Petterson Allen
1872–1949
Magnus Olaf Klaudius Pederson Pedersen Peterson
1892–1933
Hilmer Hilmar Eugen Pedersen
1894–1900
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Then others in Norway after marriage :
Ellef Elf Alf Bernholt Petersen
1897–1900
Ella Karen Johanne (DNA) Pettersdatter Pedersen Pettersen
1899–1958
Mary Katrine Katherine Petterson Peterson
1902–1976
Eugen & Elf died in Norway- family story was they were eating wild flowers & died
Maybe there might be more Karen ( kasja) information on any of the above records though?
Sorry I am not much help :(
Cheers! ( Glad you are doing ok :)
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Hi Ian,
Re: https://urn.digitalarkivet.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20060215030467.jpg
On this Marriage record there is 2 names? in a column- just after the middle of the page:
Looks like Torsten Linne____?? then next column- it says 4 Oct ??
Johan Andreasen......then next column- 11 & blow that 19
Does this means anything ??
Jila
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Is Varmskog in Naes Varmland ?
I seem to have a DNA match with someone with this Nils in their tree?
Name: Nils Nilsson
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 26 dec 1815
Marriage Place: Varmskog, Varmland, Sweden
Spouse: Lisa Nilsdr
Cant seem to see the connection at the moment :(
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Yes, the 14 Dec 1863 Marriage record does show her father as Nils Nilsen- but I am not sure that is correct? Can you find any more info about this Karen? Perhaps the Banns would help ? There must be some record - I just cant think where to look?
Well, I am not too sure what to make about this bann record. It says that she was from Huggenäs and the father was recorded as Nils Nilsen as the marriage record. Maybe I am incorrect in my assumption of the birth dates or there is another Karen/Cajsa somewhere there......
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mjr/ - 4th from bottom.
Ian
added:
I think this is her actually. Everything seems to fit. Now to find her in Hurum Parish, which there are 2 of them.
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Looks like Torsten Linne____?? then next column- it says 4 Oct ??
Johan Andreasen......then next column- 11 & blow that 19
Does this means anything ??
The names are the bondsmen.
4th Oct is the bann date.
The next column asks for the person requesting the bann.
The next column says that they are vaccinated.
Ian
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1. Bann record- for Johan & Karen( Kasja) - thanks for noticing that it say "Huggenas"- I didnt notice that before.
2. I didnt know there was 2 Hurum's either :) Is there a Hurum close to Eidsvold? I think her brother Nil Nilsen (b. 11 Dec 1843) was also in Norway & on the 1865 Census too..
3. Did they not have to give several Banns - 2-3 weeks in a row?? Maybe there is more info there ?
4. Yes if we can find her between 1855-1863- that would be great..Would she have been listed on Nil Hansson death record 1861 in Tofte Buskerud : This is the info I found: Nils died in Hurum Buskerud Norway -Death info from Ian: Nils died by drowning in Hurum Norway.. Link to Death record: http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/kb/gr/person/pg00000000978044 fs website death record: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWK2-XYM
Bye for now
Jila
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1. I just found an old record - says Nils Hansson/ Hansen Ringsfelt Uggelquist-moved to Hurum 25 April 1853..so should be on the 1855 Census? Karen( Kasja) moved 19 Nov 1855- so would not be ont the 1855 Census
2. I also found this old info on my computor:
Kajsa Nilsdotter, born 1836 Jul. 3 in Fiskaretorpet,
By parish, Värmland Co. Fiskaretorpet was a croft belonging to a farm
called Norra Skane. Kajsa was confirmed in 1850 and moved to a place
called Tolerud of the farm Carlslund in Huggenäs parish in 1852, to
serve as a farm maid. In 1855 (Nov. 19) she moved from Sweden to a
place called Hurum in Norway. She had a "flyttningsattest" (migration
permit) No. 81 from Huggenäs parish"
3. Another record says she was born Kyrketorp Huggenas-3 july 1836 & confirmed 1850- I think in Quarntorp.. I think they moved around alot as her father was in the Military & Soldat.. I dont think I have the confirmation record
Bye for now
Jila
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Hi Jila
I just re-read your post:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=716351.0
Wow, 11 pages long. I had actually forgotten that I helped you back then, my memory isn't what it used to be.
I really now do think you have the correct Cajsa/Karen Nilsson even though the birth date is different.
Ian
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1. I just found an old record - says Nils Hansson/ Hansen Ringsfelt Uggelquist-moved to Hurum 25 April 1853..so should be on the 1855 Census? Karen( Kasja) moved 19 Nov 1855- so would not be ont the 1855 Census
As I understand the 1855 census was only statistical:
Cited from FamilySearch:
"Censuses were taken regularly in 1815, 1825, 1835, 1845 and 1855 and are available under More Searches on the home page of the Digital Archives. The censuses are labeled as incomplete since they were purely statistical."
Ian
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Hi again,
I just re-read the old posts too..You sure were great to help me :) I am not really sure if I am furthur ahead & know anything for sure (lol)
Everything was find for Karen ( kasja) until she put 21 June 1836 on that 1900 Census- everything else fit.. except of course she or someone put "Nils Nilsen" down on her marriage record as her father.. I know it should be her father but I really think it is an error- due to her father dying in 1861..But need proof one way or they other..
1. Are there more wedding banns available for Karen and Johan ? Where was Johan between 1855-1863?
2. Can you find Karen's 1850 comfirmation?
3. Are there court records with regard to Caroline Elise's birth 19 July 1875? Would it show anything about Karen- date & place of birth?? Birth Father Ole Nilsen b. 1847 Hedmarken??
4. I have 3 possible Ole Nilsen's b. 1847 that are possible fathers of Caroline 's.. Ole Nilsen Lillemoen, Ole Nilsen Strom b. 1847 and another Ole Nilsen listed on the 1875 Census as a "Hjula"- or worked there..
5. I was thinking the 3rd Ole is possible as he was 9 yrs younger than Karen - she was a single parents , separated from Johan and working in the Hjula factory in Sagene.. so where else would she meet Ole ??
6. Are there "bestMan" statements somewhere ??
7. Yes David Tornquist had a sailing boat called the Storm Karin apparently and sailed across to USA.. apparently this boat is still around & in good shape in Sweden.. Grandson of Karl Jonathan Tornquist was going to help me too- I have emailed him again but no reply? I hope he is well ?
Bye for now
Thanks again/ Mange Takk
J
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One more thing: Do you think maybe the Brothers also mixed up their birth dates due to the Calendars too ?
I have found a couple possible ones like the one in Brown Minnesota-I thought it was one of the brothers- but he said he was Norwegian but the date was the exact date in one case..
Name: Andrew Nelson
Birth Date: 21 Dec 1850
Death Date: 6 Dec 1936
Cemetery: Woodlawn Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place: Allouez, Brown County, Wisconsin, United States of America
bye for now
Jila
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2. Can you find Karen's 1850 comfirmation?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mkb/
Ian
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Would she have been listed on Nil Hansson death record 1861 in Tofte Buskerud : This is the info I found: Nils died in Hurum Buskerud Norway -Death info from Ian: Nils died by drowning in Hurum Norway.. Link to Death record: http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/kb/gr/person/pg00000000978044
Norwegian record - original:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mkc/
Swedish record - original:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mkd/
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Thanks for the links :) I couldnt see anything that might help us in our searches on the Death record or confirmation but I may have missed something?
My cousin did find this one: but I dont think it is right ?
Marit Nilsdotter
Sweden Baptisms, 1611-1920
Marit Nilsdotter
Gender:
Female
Christening Date:
24 Jun 1836
Christening Place:
LYSVIK, VARMLAND, SWEDEN
Birth Date:
21 Jun 1836
Father's Name:
Nils Nilsson
Mother's Name:
Karin Olsdr
"Sweden Baptisms, 1611-1920," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V7K6-K4D : 10 February 2018), Marit Nilsdotter, 21 Jun 1836; citing , reference 2:1K4WJPF; FHL microfilm 81,999.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks again for helping me :)
Cheers
J
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Hi
I had already looked at her before. She lived her life in Sweden.
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Okay..Thanks ..I didnt think it was the right person but my cousin kinda did as had thr 21June1836-birth date.. :)
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My cousin also found this one : May 25, 1860 Kajsa Nildotter, 24 years of age, in-migrated from Sweden to Ostfold county Norway. Position servant or maid
Do you think Kajsa could have gone back & forth to Varmland ?
J
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2. I didnt know there was 2 Hurum's either :) Is there a Hurum close to Eidsvold? I think her brother Nil Nilsen (b. 11 Dec 1843) was also in Norway & on the 1865 Census too..
3. Did they not have to give several Banns - 2-3 weeks in a row?? Maybe there is more info there ?
There is a Hurum Parish in Oppland and Buskerud.
The bann record I gave you is for the 3 weeks. There are no more records for banns.
Ian
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2. I also found this old info on my computor:
Kajsa Nilsdotter, born 1836 Jul. 3 in Fiskaretorpet,
By parish, Värmland Co. Fiskaretorpet was a croft belonging to a farm
called Norra Skane. Kajsa was confirmed in 1850 and moved to a place
called Tolerud of the farm Carlslund in Huggenäs parish in 1852, to
serve as a farm maid. In 1855 (Nov. 19) she moved from Sweden to a
place called Hurum in Norway. She had a "flyttningsattest" (migration
permit) No. 81 from Huggenäs parish"
Here is the original record:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mkj/
Ian
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Banns: ok- I think in England they do Banns 2-3 wks in row- so I thought it might be similar in Sweden.
Thanks for the link ;)
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Yes it is the same. There are 3 weeks of banns. The record shows all the 3 weeks.
Ian
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Okay thanks..I did also email Gunnar Tornquist ( I think he is gg or g. grandson of David Tornquist ??.. He was going to try to help get some info on the brothers..He said that his family lived in Worchester Mass (by Boston )- but returned to Sweden when the sons were 18-20 so they could do their Military Training.. David was the son of Karen ( kasja- born 3 July 1836) brother Johannes..
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I took a quick look in the Oslo probates without much success. I think she should be there somewhere.
Here is the link if you want to look yourself - I took the years 1904-1908:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mkk/
I did find this though - Karen's death registered. There is a mention of Johan and Karoline - nr 486:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mkl/
Ian
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Karen( kasja) death: 15 March 1905- Sagene Oslo Norway: This is the info I have on her death from internet helper- maybe Vivi?
" Information from internet helper: She died March 15, 1905 and was burried from Sagene Church.
No 31 bottom half:
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=8089&i...
Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20061123340682....
From Dødsfallprotokollen, no 486:
Permanent sidelenke: http://arkivverket.no/URN:sk_read/27302/217/
Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-sk20090515340570...
========================================================================
If a woman was married it was common to mention her husband. I guess it was unusual to be divorced so they also mentioned her ex-husband.
I'm not able to read everything in Dødsfallprotokollen, but here is what I read:
Widow Karen Amundsen 69 years old died today [March 15, 1905] in Østgaardsgt. 6. Leaves behind two grown children. ???? Reported by her daughter Karoline Elise Pettersen Østgaardsgt 2 who informs that the deceased owned nothing. Buried at the Poor-care's expense."
============================================
I think I was wrong in calculating difference between her age & Ole Nilsen b.1847-it is actually 11yrs difference-Wow !
=============================================
Karens death:
I am wondering if Karoline may have things mixed up- if Karen was 69- when she died- March 1905- she would have been born in 1835? As her birthday was in June/July 1836.. There seems to be some question abt her being a Widow?? But also given her Husband permission to re-marry or something??
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Re: Dates 21 June 1836 & 3 July 1836:
Perhaps the Minister/ Priest in Fiskaratorp where Karen ( Kasja) was very old & still stuck by the old calendar dates? I read that the Calendars changed over in 1752- However not all countries & parishes followed right away.. some place not until 1924..I also read not everyone agreed or liked this change as they felt they were robbed of 11/12 days of their life.. In 1836 the difference between both calendars was exactly 12 dys .
It appears that the only record that shows the 21 June 1836-date was the 1900 Census- so far anyways
Major problem is her marriage record-stating her father as Nils Nilsen( not Nils Hansen) Good thing was to see "Huggenas " on those Banns records though..
Bye for now
Jila
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Hi there,
Still looking or have you given up (haha) ..I was wondering if there might be any dates or information on Karen( kajsa) pension file ? That is the only place I can think of that there might be a date of birth ?
Can you check for me? I never received any reply from Gunnar- not sure if he is still alive or not ?
Thanks again for all your help :)
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Hi again Jila
Do you have a link to the pension file?
Ian
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Hi there
No I do not have a link for her Pension file ? Was there an actual Govt Pension in those days? Work Pension from Hjula ?
According to the Census Karen worked at the Hjula factory at least from 1875-1891- NO she when she started there but it opened the year she moved to Norway. And she is not working on the 1900 Census..
I have tried to get something or anything from the Hjula records- but have not recieved anything except 2 pictures of the factory in 1880.. I assume if Ole Nilsen b. 1847- was there he was probably working as a stonemason at that time.
I do not know if Karen ever married Ole- but they were not married in 1875-when Caroline Elise was born in July 1875.
I guess this mystery will never get solved :(
Bye for now
J
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Hi
I perhaps misunderstood what you meant. What pension file did you refer to?
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Well one of the Census(most likely 1900)- said she was a Pensioner if I remember right..
So I was thinking that perhaps there was a Pension file available.. That might have information of her birth Date-or she might have had to provide a birth record in order to get a Pension..
I do not know what the process was in Norway at that time in order to get a Pension??
Was the Pension provided by the Govt or her family ?
Just guessing as I do not know for sure- Basically trying to think of anything where a Date of Birth might have been provided.
J
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I am pretty sure that there weren't any pension records back then.
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ok- another dead end then :(
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I am running out of ideas I am afraid.
Apparently her grave information is no longer available on the Grave website so someone has to go there & look or take a photo to see if there is any information or birth date on the grave.
She was buried out of the Sagene church.. I think she is buried in this cemetery: Nordre gravlund
J
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1903 Census: says Karen Amundsen b1836- living on Pension Insurance..What would that be ?
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/69734/24727
J
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A friend just told me it was a Private Insurance- So I am assuming it was through her work at the Sagene Hjula Factory in Oslo ..But I do not know where I could find any more info??
J
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Update :)
Hi Ian,
Just thought I would let you know that I have a DNA connection with one of Karen( Kasja) Nilsdotter- Amundsen brothers Tornquists gr-grandsons so we did have the right Karen all along :) Yeah !!
Hope you are doing well :)
Cheers !
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Hi Jila
Excellent news. Glad that it all worked out well.
Everything is fine thanks, considering of what's going on around the world.
Hoping all is well with you too.
Ian
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Yes I am pleased with the new information :) Must thank you so much for all your help :)
Still working on my other deadends too (haha)
Yes it is a crazy world especially for the past year :( Glad my parents are not around to have to deal with this virus :(
Cheers !
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You're welcome.
Ian
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One more thing :)
On Johannes Nilsson Tornquist's 12 April 1853 birth record ( Ö. Uggelsäter, Huggenäs (S) (Huggenäs A:15 1851-1855 p. 92, Östra Uggelsäter).
It has the parents Nils Hanson and Lisa Olofsdotter- then sponsors Olof Malkom Persson ( Galtane) and Kaja Nilsdotter(Kamtorpet )
Can you tell me who the sponsors were in relation to Johannes parents ( & Karen ( Kasja) Nilsdotter's parents ?) Are they Lisa's parents ?
I havent looked at the sponsors for the other children but will take a look :) Thanks alot :)