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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Selkirkshire => Topic started by: Anydogsbody on Saturday 18 August 18 22:18 BST (UK)

Title: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: Anydogsbody on Saturday 18 August 18 22:18 BST (UK)
My 4GGrandfather, John Stewart, was born in Selkirk according to other people's family trees and his father is most commonly given as James.

Can't find a birth record on Scotland's People which corroborates that and the only record I can see for  John Stewart, born in Selkirk, on IGI gives the father's name also as John not James.

Anybody got any suggestions for sources on this or reliable information from their own researches. Any info would be appreciated
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: ColC on Sunday 19 August 18 11:55 BST (UK)
On SP.

STUART   JOHN   JAMES STUART/ISOBEL DICKSON   11/08/1738   Selkirk

Colin
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: Anydogsbody on Sunday 19 August 18 13:53 BST (UK)
Well done. I should know by now to search alternative spellings. In later census records the surname is Stewart or even Steward. I should have thought that Stuart might make the connection.

Just need to find out about James, his father, now.

Thanks for the help
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: ColC on Sunday 19 August 18 14:10 BST (UK)
After the Jacobite rising of 1745, many Stuarts changed the spelling of the name.

Colin
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: Anydogsbody on Sunday 19 August 18 18:40 BST (UK)
That makes sense. The dates of the name change more or less fit with that. I live near Culloden so should be aware of that.

I'm working this line back because some have linked it with a line of Stirling/Perthshire Stuarts which gives a direct line back to Robert the Bruce and others.

I'm always rather circumspect about these things but it's looking like it might just hang together. I'm only a couple of generations away from making the connection with well established lines of descent


Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: ColC on Sunday 19 August 18 18:53 BST (UK)
Thanks for you reply, if you stumble across my wife's GGGF along the way please let me know.
Daniel Stewart, married Arran as Stuart.He was born 18 May 1802 Irvine, Ayrshire, according to his seaman's records. Like you nothing to substantiate that.

Good luck with your research.

Colin
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: coombs on Wednesday 05 September 18 22:39 BST (UK)
Hi Anydogsbody

John Stewart/Stuart is my ancestor. He moved to Co Durham, England in about 1750-1770. He was married more than once. I descend from his 2nd wife Patience Brown born in 1759 in Bishop Auckland.

Would be nice to find who his first wife was as he had a son James Stewart in 1777 but no mother listed (as was quite common in PR's). However from 1798 to 1813 much more info was collected due to Dade registers and John's son William Stewart was baptised in Bishop Auckland in 1800 "son of John Stewart a native of Selkirk, Scotland and Patience Nee Brown, a native of this parish".

I am not sure when John left Scotland but would love to know. He had a sister Agnes born in 1737, a twin brother James born in 1738 and a sister Mary born in 1740.
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: Anydogsbody on Wednesday 05 September 18 23:22 BST (UK)
We have a common descent. His first wife was, I believe, Jannet Bell who died in 1785.

Follow this link to ScotlandsPeople and it will tell you his and his twin brother James's parentage. You'll need some page credits with SP to view:

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/images/OPR778_000_0020_0154Z

If the link doesn't work I can try and copy/paste an image for you. I would love to know in more detail your evidence for the move to England. I made a bit of a guess about his Selkirk origins but would like to consolidate that.

There is a suggestion that this Stewart line links back in to the royal Stewart line and ultimately back to Robert 1st of Scotland, The Bruce himself. The link may be back through the Stewarts of Balqhidder.

It's all a bit tenuous at the moment but within the last day or so I've had some encouraging DNA evidence which supports the idea that I have Robert II, King of Scotland as a common ancestor with someone else. The same would be true of you if you have John in your line of ascent.

Interesting you mentioned William(1800) because I am descended from him.
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: Anydogsbody on Thursday 06 September 18 09:11 BST (UK)
Good morning, Coombs

You will probably have seen by now, if you didn't know already, that John & James Stuart were the twin sons of James Stuart and Isobel Dickson( as per the previous link). The marriage in Sept 1737 appears in the IGI here:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:1:MSW5-4DF

Others have James (Snr) DOB as 1712 but I can't see a birth record that fits on SP. Again, the only mention I can see is on IGI at:

https://www.familysearch.org/search/tree/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AJames~%20%2Bsurname%3AStuart~%20%2Bbirth_place%3ASelkirk~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1705-1715~%20%2Bspouse_givenname%3AIsobel~%20%2Bspouse_surname%3ADickson~&https://www.familysearch.org/search/family-trees=undefined

I am assuming his place of birth was Selkirk but maybe not. Ultimately I would like to connect him back to Perthshire Stuarts around Pitlochry.

Do you or does anybody else have any insight into James Stuart abt 1712?

PS Do you have a link to the Dade register you quoted from?
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: coombs on Thursday 06 September 18 17:27 BST (UK)
I think I downloaded a copy of the baptism about 10 years ago.

The baptism has been transcribed on FreeREG here https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/581804c3e93790ec8b957dbf?search_id=5b91549e791e3be21fdb46da&ucf=false

What info do you have on his first wife Jannet Bell?

The suggested link to Robert The Bruce is interesting.

I am not sure when James Stewart born c1712 died but probably sometime after 1740. He may have died in Co Durham. John Stewart and his brother James born 1738 may have moved to England when children or young adults with their parents.
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: Anydogsbody on Thursday 06 September 18 18:55 BST (UK)
OK, I'll get a look at that link but the quote was very helpful in pinning down the Selkirk origins.

I suspect that the regal connections will turn out to be nothing other than ill researched fantasy but there is just enough substance to make it worth investigating for a while.

Jannet Bell(1752-1785) is shown in other trees as being a wife of John Stewart but is unverified. The only link I can see is this one from Ancestry to a wedding in Findo Gask in Perthshire. Interesting from the point of view that it places John further north than when he married Patience Brown and closer to the heartland of the Balquhidder Stewarts. A lot more work to do before I change my kilt to Bruce tartan ;)

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=60144&h=3123827&tid=106325442&pid=402014712181&hid=1043155680533&usePUB=true&_phsrc=ymB38&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: coombs on Saturday 08 September 18 16:46 BST (UK)
I am not so sure about Jannet Bell either.

John and his first wife had 1 child

James Stewart in 1777.

John and his 2nd wife Patience had the following children.

James Stewart in 1789.
Anne Stewart in 1792.
Isabella Stewart in 1794
Isabella Stewart in 1796.
John Stewart in 1798. (said to he his 3rd son).
William Stewart in 1800
Mary Stewart in 1803. (said to be his 4th daughter).

Going by what the number of sons/daughters he had, it looks like John Stewart only had 1 child by his first wife.

A John Stewart married Mary Lind in 1769 in Sedgefield, which is a few miles from Bishop Auckland.
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: Anydogsbody on Saturday 08 September 18 19:51 BST (UK)
Iím currently liaising with a few folks to try and find out more about James Stewart c1712. I imagine that if anything at all can be found out about him it will be anything but royal. The DNA is a bit of a poser though.

If anyone has any info on James it would be appreciated
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: coombs on Saturday 08 September 18 21:06 BST (UK)
I too cannot seem to find the birth of James Stewart born c1712. I think a John or James Stewart married Agnes Brown in 1701 in Selkirk. Could be the parents.

I know James Stewart and Isabella Dickson had a daughter Agnes Stewart. Often Scots did name children after parents (As well as England, etc).

I think Isabella was the daughter of James Dickson and Mary Gib. Gib is a common surname in the Midlothian area which is just North of Selkirk.
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: Anydogsbody on Sunday 09 September 18 00:06 BST (UK)
In view of the difficulty in finding Jamesís origins I canít see that anyone who is claiming noble ancestry beyond that is doing anything other than indulging in fantasy genealogy . If I find anything out I will post it on here.

I know some of the borders towns, Kelso in particular, but I donít recall being in Selkirk. If weíre travelling south these days it tends to be down through Perth and Glasgow. Must take a detour through Selkirk some time. We lived In Edinburgh for several years but, even then,  never had reason to be in Selkirk. Might be useful to go and brush the lichen off a few gravestones and see if that turns up any rellies!
Title: Re: John Stewart 1738, Selkirk
Post by: JustinL on Sunday 27 December 20 13:52 GMT (UK)
I know it's a very long time since you two were posting in relation to his family.

My Walker ancestors were living in the parish at about the same time, and I'm struggling to move back prior to a marriage in 1738.

You have presumably seen that James Stuart married Isobel Dickson on 3 Sept 1737 in Selkirk (the record can be found and viewed on ScotlandsPeople). Who were the cautioners? What was James' occupation? Did he live in Selkirk town or in one of the smaller settlements in the parish?

I take that you have assumed that James was about 25 when he married, without having any evidence. Have you seen the baptism of James son of Robert Steuart on 3rd July 1700 in Yarrow?

Do you know whether your James named a son Robert?