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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Missjanny on Sunday 19 August 18 02:02 BST (UK)
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Hello, a beginner looking for a needle in a haystack here.
My father Joseph Smyth was born in the Rotunda Hospital in Dublin in 1/1/1931. Only the mother is listed on the Birth Certificate: KATHLEEN SMYTH from Templeogue Everton. Her age isn’t on his birth certificate but he “was told” she was s young girl (maybe, or maybe not I guess)
My father was given to a Protestant Orphanage.
I am trying to find this Kathleen Smyth, my Grandmother, but haven’t been able to find her. I’ve looked at Ancestry.com Census records and have found a few Kathleen Smyth’s but none seem to be a good match.
Rotunda Hospital gave me no records or info through my FOI request.
Anyone have any pointers for me, or must I just accept it is impossible to research?
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Did the Rotunda Hospital say why they couldn't give you any records or information?
Is your father still alive or has he died?
Do you know the name of the Protestant Orphanage your father went to?
Having a search about and found a place called Templeogue Nursery Rescue Home, Little Fortfield, Templeogue. It was opened in 1910 and took in first fall maternity cases who remained for six months after the birth of the baby. Payment when possible. 12 places were available and no limit on age. I wonder if your father ended up there?
Just found a bit of info elsewhere:-
A large number of charitable organisations and institutions, some established in the 19th century but surviving into the mid to late 20th century, dealt with unmarried mothers. These included the Catholic Protection and Rescue Society of Ireland. The Magdalen Asylum in Leeson Street in Dublin catered for Protestant unmarried mothers, as did the Bethany Home in Rathgar, and the Nursery Rescue Home in Templeogue. Some of these were non-residential charities and they either fostered out babies or had them adopted.
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Don't know if the National Archives of Ireland can help at all regarding Protestant Orphanages. Contact details below:-
For details of documents held in the National Archives, contact:
The National Archives of Ireland
Bishop Street
Dublin 8
Ireland
Tel:+353 (0)1 4072300
Locall:1890 252424
Fax:+353 (0)1 4072333
Homepage: http://www.nationalarchives.ie
Email: mail "at" nationalarchives.ie
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From Rotunda Hospital's website-
https://rotunda.ie/knowledgebase/applying-records-of-the-deceased/
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If a 'young girl' are we assuming born about 1910 to 1917, or any older?
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If she was born by Apr.1911 then she should be in 1911 census. However, she might not have been born or been living in Dublin then, might be under Smith or Katherine, Catherine, Kate, etc.
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I was trying to figure out how Everton fitted in, found this from 1927
Vincent and Sidney Smyth of Everton Templeogue
https://www.oireachtas.ie/ga/debates/debate/dail/1928-02-29/16/
Possibly this family but they are RC
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Tallagh/Templeogue/86939/
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Very interesting, Sinann, especially since both sons Sidney & Vincent seem to go by heir middle name and there's a daughter Elizabeth Kathleen.
This could be the father James Smyth- which mean they were still at that address in 1925-
Irish Times, Sept.1925: CHARGE OF REMOVING HORSE AND RECORD ROOKS. James Smyth, Everton, Templeogue, was charged at Rathfarnham District Coast Yesterday with having, in April last, wilawfully entered ...
Weekly Irish Times (Dublin), 26 Sept.1925: ... at Kilmainham District Court on Monday, in the case against James Smyth, Everton, Templeogue, who was charged with having in April last taken mare from the Butterfield Home of Rest for Animals at Templeogue, and sold to a man named Lawless. A second charge was that ...
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I've lost the link now but the son George Fredrick was born Firhouse Templeogue, I still haven't figured out exactly where Everton is/was.
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Evening Herald (Dublin), 15 Oct.1925: AGED WOMAN'S FATE Inquest Story of Templeogue Tragedy... the Meath Hospital, to-day, the City Coroner, Dr. Louis Byrne... The engine was reversed and the brakes applied immediately. Before the accident he did not see the woman on the line. Vincent Smith, Everton, Templeogue, stated he was on the road and heard the emergency whistle and the screeching of the brakes. He went over ...
Added- according a thread on another forum Joseph Smyth was in orphanage approx. 14 years.
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Mary Smith, widow, wife of James Smith (postman) died 1956 at Everton- informant was son Desmond (same address)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1956/04414/4150991.pdf
Added- Desmond also registered father James' death in 1952-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1952/04478/4174971.pdf
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If you put
'Everton, Templeogue Road, '
into a google maps search, it pops up as about 33,35 Templeogue Road.
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? Irish Times, 18 Nov.1933: CHARGE AGAINST YOUNG MAN. George Smyth … a labourer, whose address was given Cherryfield Cottage, Templeogue, before Mr. Hannan in the Dublin … Court yesterday, will [be?] remanded ,,, custody on charge of conspiring with too ...
I've seen Cherryfield Cottage, Templeogue before but may just be a red herring.
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'I've seen Cherryfield Cottage, Templeogue before but may just be a red herring.'
Cherryfield House - former home of Dave Allen...........?
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Here's where I'd seen it in earlier searches-
Weekly Freeman's Journal, (Dublin), 26 June 1915: … in which James Smyth, postman, Everton, Templeogue, charged Richard O’Hara, Cherryfield cottages, Templeogue, with having on the _ inst. assaulted him and threatened him at Knocklyon. Thera was cross summons by O'Hara against Smyth for alleged assault...
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This might be interesting but I can only get a garbled version- same 1915 assault case posted earlier but looks like slightly different address?
Irish Independent (Dublin), 9 JUn 1915: Alleged Assault.—When James Smyth, postman, Cbernfield [Cherryfield?] Cottages, Templeogue, at Rathdarnham Petty Sessions. charged Richard O'Hara with assaulting him while ...
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If you put
'Everton, Templeogue Road, '
into a google maps search, it pops up as about 33,35 Templeogue Road.
The same spot on the earlier maps is a field, so these houses were built after 1913
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,714184,730079,11,9
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There is an Everton Terrace on the road/tramway to the right on that map.
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There is an Everton Terrace on the road/tramway to the right on that map.
Not sure about that one as it seems to be Terenure rather than Templeogue.
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There is an Everton Terrace on the road/tramway to the right on that map.
Not sure about that one as it seems to be Terenure rather than Templeogue.
Yes both spots are in the townland of Terenure but at least it shows the name was used in the general area so it could have been used again.
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:D I’m blown away by your responses, thank you so much for your ideas and thoughts!
Rotunda Hospital said:
First, as I had provided the birth certificate for my Father, they confirm that an entry in the 1931 Hospital Labour Ward Book was found that Kathleen Smyth delivered a baby Jan 1 1931. Then they say any further information (should it have been located) is deemed personal information to Kathleen and/or baby.
Second, in an appeal, they uphold their right to refuse information being given in confidence and of personal nature.
Then thirdly, they add section 10 which is: ...May refuse to grant if the record concerned does not exist or cannot be found.
Come to think of it, I didn’t request Kathleen’s Home address, I wonder if they would release that as “non personal”
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So, it really seems possible that “my Kathleen” is this Smyth Family at 64 Templeogue per 1911 census. And her brothers (who also go by middle names) Vincent and Sidney were questioned for this burglary in 1927.
But without a 1921 census how can I trace her?
I don’t know the name of the Protestant Orphanage Kathleen’s son (my Father) was was placed in, and he is now deceased so I can’t ask him.
But, aghadowey, he WAS in an orphanage for 14 years just as you said was mentioned in another thread. Can you help me find that thread on the other forum?
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So, it really seems possible that “my Kathleen” is this Smyth Family at 64 Templeogue per 1911 census. And her brothers (who also go by middle names) Vincent and Sidney were questioned for this burglary in 1927.
But without a 1921 census how can I trace her?
I don’t know the name of the Protestant Orphanage Kathleen’s son (my Father) was was placed in, and he is now deceased so I can’t ask him.
But, aghadowey, he WAS in an orphanage for 14 years just as you said was mentioned in another thread. Can you help me find that thread on the other forum?
1926 Census?
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This Smyth family seems to be the best lead we have for you at the moment with the limited details you have been given.
A bit more digging to do but when more information is found I suggest you go back and ask for more information from Rotunda Hospital. You did say that your father was deceased and as his next of kin you are looking for details for family medical history? If not, that may make a slight difference although copy of death certificate may be required as proof.
The note that he was in orphanage for 14 years came from a post of yours on another forum which I found when googling. Which brings in another angle to consider- asking Rotunda for name of institution baby was placed in so you can apply for his records there.
Will see if I get any more information from a few ideas I had last night.
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If correct family, Elizabeth Kathleen would have been 30 when she gave birth - where did the information about 'young girl' come from?
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Keep in mind 64 is not a house number, it's the number of the census form. The house doesn't appear to have a number.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000225404/
I think Templeogue Everton as per the birth cert may be the best you will get as a address.
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Thank you all for your help!
1. Don’t know if Kathleen was a young girl or not, perhaps my father was told this as a fact, or not. Perhaps it was just easier to believe that.
2. I will go back to Rotunda Hospital for more info, especially for medical purposes :)
3. I’d also love if Rotunda said which orphanage he went to. My pain purpose tho is to learn more about Kathleen and to see if there are any living relatives.
Again, your help is very much appreciated.
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Please don't get in touch with Rotunda yet- I haven't finished checking a few more things and others may still be able to add more ;)
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Hi. Kathleen Smyth was my grandfather's sister. My grandfather was Charles Smyth, who passed away in 2009. Vincent and Sidney were his older brothers. I would be very happy to speak with you.
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Wow, mary1976 I am so thrilled you have contacted me. I would absolutely love to speak to you!
My email address is: Removed I really look forward to talking with you,
thanks again, you've really made me so happy,
Janet
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Janet
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Mary1976 will need to make another two posts before you can contact her via the private message system. That's the little white letter symbol next to the person symbol or green when you are online.
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Sorry for posting my email address and thank you for the link to the rules