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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Gold prospector on Sunday 19 August 18 07:08 BST (UK)
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My great grandfather, Jules Francois Anseline, seems to have been born in Mauritius maybe around 1839 (calculated from his Death Certificate, following his early death, aged 37 years, at The Sydney Infirmary in 1876; he had stated he had been in the Colony for 20 years; however, the Certificate was in the name of "Juleius Anslm"! The cause of death was a four day history of 'paraplegia').
In Australia, he and Mary Morris had 7 children though 2 died young. On the Birth Certificate of the youngest, Frederick Jules, in 1874, Mary stated they'd been married on 16th March, 1865 in Young, NSW. However, there is a Marriage Certificate for Jules Anseline (a 'gold digger') and Mary Morris for 21st July, 1871; married at Frenchmans Reef, near Carcoar. But no additional information forthcoming there...that is, I haven't been able to determine his parents' names.
From a couple of Birth Certificates of his children, he was a gold miner 1) near Albury - in 1866 - and 2) Parkes - 1874. I can't find the Certificates for the other children - Julia, Emily, Alfred or Everest. In a rootschat thread about "Everest and his fate after being on 'The Vernon'", the origins of Jules Francois was introduced and some approaches were suggested but I've not been successful in building on that. However, his name has been highlighted therein, in case assistance from a global Coordinator may be required.
Incidentally, two isolated findings: there was a news item I found on Trove about donations given towards the Foundation Stone at the new Carcoar Convent (he gave 5 shillings) and (NSW Govt Gazette) a letter addressed to Monsieur Jules Anseline, St Vincents Hospital, Sydney, was returned to the Dead letter Office.
There is an Index for "Slave Registers of former British Colonial Dependencies, 1813-1834" (ancestry.com) which shows a number of Anseline families as the owners of various numbers of slaves. So, there may be a connection there (one of the slave owners up until 1832 was a Francois Anseline - interesting - though he may have died years before the birth of Jules).
Meanwhile, my search for emigration documentation hasn't turned up anything.
I have three questions: 1) What other sources are likely to help fill in the gaps during his 20 years on the Australian goldfields?
2) Can one access Mauritian records fairly easily to further trace his origins?
3) Is it reasonable to seek the assistance of a global coordinator at this time or is it a bit early?
Gold prospector
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There's an 1883 Sydney marriage of Julia Anseline to Thomas Lestor or Nestor (both 21 yo), bride's parents Thomas Anseline and Mary (Morris)
reg no 1674/1883
'Anglican Church Diocese of Sydney; Sydney, New South Wales, Australia; Baptism, Burial, Confirmation, Marriage and composite registers in the Anglican Church Diocese of Sydney Archives' on Ancestry
M
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In Australia, he and Mary Morris had 7 children though 2 died young. On the Birth Certificate of the youngest, Frederick Jules, in 1874, Mary stated they'd been married on 16th March, 1865 in Young, NSW. However, there is a Marriage Certificate for Jules Anseline (a 'gold digger') and Mary Morris for 21st July, 1871; married at Frenchmans Reef, near Carcoar. But no additional information forthcoming there...that is, I haven't been able to determine his parents' names.
.....
Jules ANSELINE
Jules marriage to Mary MORRIS was registered in the Carcoar District, in 1871. It is very very likely that the NSW BDM record (#1972) of that registration has many blanks, including blanks on their origins, parents etc. I do NOT encourage you to purchase the NSW BDM certificate. If you don't have info about Jules origins from the birth certs of their children, or if you have not obtained ALL the info actually recorded on the church register for Jules and Mary's marriage, you may well benefit from seeking an official transcript of the marriage registration to determine the clergy/denomination for the service.
There's now a very long thread I prepared years ago to help overcome the elusive blanks on NSW BDM registrations in the mid to late 19th century, but I think you need to know what info Jules gave FIRST HAND about himself when he married in NSW before you go back further on his origins.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0 I note the thread has been read over 21,000 times, so hopefully it has helped many RChatters.
JM (I put Jules name top left hand corner, for IF we need a global moderator to hive off some posts at some time in the future).
Have you followed up on seeking out the original register for the Carcoar marriage...
:) JM
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From a couple of Birth Certificates of his children, he was a gold miner 1) near Albury - in 1866 -
There is 2 birth reg. for the first born.
MORRIS JULES 4620/1866 mother - MARY District - ALBURY
AUSELINE JULES 4620/1866 father -JULES mother - MARY District - ALBURY
To me this would indicate that the parents were not married in 1866 when he was born.
Maybe on Frederick's reg. she said they were married and said the year of marriage was 1865 to save face of having kids out of wedlock.
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There is 2 birth reg. for the first born.
MORRIS JULES 4620/1866 mother - MARY District - ALBURY
AUSELINE JULES 4620/1866 father -JULES mother - MARY District - ALBURY
To me this would indicate that the parents were not married in 1866 when he was born.
Dual indexes could appear when a couple weren't married and the indexers were unsure what the surname of the child should be.
Searching for other births in the time frame with only the mother mentioned gives this one
7218/1870 MORRIS ALFRED MARY at BINALONG
I had family working the Victorian gold fields in a similar time frame and not all their children were registered. Sometimes life intervened and such things as registration were bypassed.
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Everest died in 1955 aged 82 so birth approx. 1873. His obit says he was born in Parkes.
I cant find a birth reg. so as Westward stated they may not have been registered.
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I think that Parkes was not its own BDM district until 1874. I will contact one of my elderly rellies, a retired former NSW BDM senior officer to ask how I can confirm that.
Note, if you go to NSW BDM online birth index and enter * for a surname, e* for given name and Mary for mother's name and Parkes for district, and limit years to 1856 - 1876, the first year you find any bdm births ... 1874.
JM
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:)
Yes, Parkes BDM commenced 1874. Prior to that, they needed to travel to Forbes, to the Court House there. Also, remember that the returns from these regional BDMs were prepared by part timers, and meant to be sent to Sydney quarterly, but no one in Sydney Reg Gens office was tasked with following up if no return received. Also if the handwriting was a scribble, quite often, no follow up meant, no registration in Sydney. These outlying regional district offices of course could issue copy certs, extracts etc as they had the original ledgers there, in front of them. Admin issues not sorted out until post WWI, pro forma printed forms developed then too, prior, all registrations were basically on verbal advice. Births from a parent or family member, Marriages from clergy or official registrar, and deaths from funeral director or police.
JM
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Thanks JM :)
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Dear JM,
I checked with the Archivist from Bathurst Catholic Archives who was able to provide me with a photo of the original entry for Jules and Mary in the Carcoar Marriage Register.
However, the parents were not mentioned.
The only additional information in the handwritten document was that they were married in '...private house...' and that he was born '...in France...'
So, I assume that the Minister was doing his rounds of the various gold-mining settlements and, when he got back to the Rectory (? a couple of weeks later), he filled out the Registry for memory or from rough notes (probably the reason he put down Jules' birthplace as France)....
:)
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Dear JM,
I checked with the Archivist from Bathurst Catholic Archives who was able to provide me with a photo of the original entry for Jules and Mary in the Carcoar Marriage Register.
However, the parents were not mentioned.
The only additional information in the handwritten document was that they were married in '...private house...' and that he was born '...in France...'
So, I assume that the Minister was doing his rounds of the various gold-mining settlements and, when he got back to the Rectory (? a couple of weeks later), he filled out the Registry for memory or from rough notes (probably the reason he put down Jules' birthplace as France)....
:)
I am still wondering ... on the image you have received, how are the signatures of the bride and groom recorded ... are they in same hand writing as the rest of the document, or are they possibly the actual signatures... If they are in same hand writing, likely they are, as you say, the summary record that was required to be transmitted through to the diocese and to the NSW bdm. But if they are their actual signatures then likely there's nowhere else to search of the info given first hand by Jules about himself and his parents when he married.
JM
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Mauritius ... former name ... Ile de France :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_de_France_(Mauritius)
genealogy sites : (per Mr Google :D )
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Mauritius_Genealogy
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Mauritius_Religious_Records
https://forebears.io/mauritius
JM :) :) :)
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On the document, where it says 'This Marriage was solemnised between us...', the two names, Jules Anseline and Mary Morris appear to have been handwritten by the same person. In fact, the rest of the handwriting is consistent with the same individual.....
The Minister couldn't remember "Ile de France"....he only recalled "..France..." :D
Many thanks for those links for Mauritius... will check them out. :D
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Yes, :) so there's still the chance that the original register that they signed has not yet been located by those at Bathurst.... :) It is actually church law that those registers are never deliberately destroyed... I will pull thinking cap down harder ...
ADD, the info on the image from Bathurst should actually give you confidence that when the original register is found that it will have all the info you seek. :) Jules likely was truthful. :)
JM
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Is it worth my while to give the Bathurst Archivist a call to see if a further search might bring up something?
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:) :) :)
Don't phone, best to write - snail or email ... :)
http://www.bathurst.catholic.org.au/?i=74&diocesan-archives
The Diocese policy statement:
file:///C:/Users/Bill/Downloads/ATTENTION%20ALL%20FAMILY%20RESEARCHERS.pdf
email enquiry often works best, and I notice there's a fee mentioned.
JM.
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I wrote to the Archivist at Bathurst who confirmed he had not seen a document with their signatures but promised to definitely keep an eye out for it as he goes about his work.... :(
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Dear JM,
Two things:
1) A propos of your post about Forbes being the repository for a possible 1873 (Parkes) birth (?baptismal) document on Everest, would it be worth my while contacting the Catholic Church (or Courthouse) there to see what they have or should I wait to see what your elderly rellie suggests?
2) Regarding Jules, the Archivist I wrote to subsequently found, by chance, Baptismal records for 3 of his other children (they were all baptised at Frenchmans Reef the day before the Marriage!!) and he has forwarded me a photo of the relevant page from the registry book :D. For this I was very grateful, especially as he did this as a courtesy. However, I take your point that, for a formal, detailed investigation otherwise, that there is mention, on the website, of a fee. As per your other 'Jules' post (about the possibility of the original document still being in existence, 21/8/18), has there been any success from 'pulling the thinking cap down harder'?!! :D
P.
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:)
Great find re those baptisms :)
In the 1970s, the NSW BDM was re-organised, and the local civil registers (large ledger books) were recalled to Sydney, so there's nothing to be gained by contacting any Court House to seek access. I see the Roman Catholic Church at Forbes is part of the Bathurst Diocese, so it would be up to you to determine if you want to contact them direct. My elderly rellie is still checking with his network of Old Boys if there's any further ideas to offer re finding the births for the children or original signatures on a marriage record.
I think the fee that the Archivist may seek would be a nominal fee :) and is likely to be far more productive as the Archivist would be far more familiar with their own records than if you or I were to travel to Bathurst to inspect the records.
Still pulling down cap, but almost stretching it beyond its limits. :D
JM
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Dear JM,
Thanks for that....I'll write to the Archivist again and see if he can be of any further assistance ;)
P.
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Paul,
I remind you of a post I put on the Fate of Everest Anseline after time on 'The Vernon' on 4 Nov 2018 where I mentioned my email to St Vincent's Hospital Archives. Your response was basically not to hold my breath for anything at all.
This was my query to them:
I am wondering if there are any records held from 1875. I have a reference to a
Inland Letters from the NSW Government Gazette dated 14 September 1875 for
Monsieur Jules Anseline addressed to St Vincent's Hospital.
His death record shows he died at the Sydney Infirmary of PARAPLEGIA and had
been in the hospital for 4 days on the 5 April 1876.
I got a reply on 7th November:
The Hospital has an Admission Book 1862-1882. I have checked the entries from
July 1875-April 1876, but have found no record of Mr Anseline, so he probably
wasn’t a patient at the Hospital. We have no other records for the period.
I went back to the archivist with:
I wonder if it is possible for you to check the admissions back as far as 1873 for Jules.
We know he had a son born in 1874 so going back to 1873 should cover all possibilities.
I am aware it is a long shot but I need to be sure.
Today I got an amazing reply:
To my amazement I have found Jules Anseline in the St Vincent’s Hospital Admission
Book 1862- 1882
He is listed as patient 223 in 1874.
He was admitted 20th September and discharged 14th December – relieved
(there were 3 discharge categories – cured, relieved and died).
Other details from the Register;
Age 38; Town – Parke (Parkes?); Profession – Miner; Religion – Catholic;
In the Colony - 20 years; Country of Origin – France;
Doctor admitting – Dr Laure;
The diagnosis column has been left empty – a block of about 20 are not filled in
– so not specific to Mr Anseline.
Dr Laure’s medical degree was from Paris, which may provide a link between St
Vincent’s and Mr Anseline.
He was a fee-paying patient and is twice listed in the Annual Report as having paid
2 guineas (4 guineas in total) . The 1874 Annual Report lists the fees for those able
to pay as 2 guineas on admission which covered 3 weeks and 14 shillings per week
thereafter – so the fees paid would not seem to cover the length of his stay.
Unfortunately there are no other records from this period.
Needless to say I was pleasantly surprised to receive the information and have thanked her for the wonderful information she so quickly provided. Unfortunately I have no idea where he went between December 1874 and his death in April 1876.
I just had to share :o
Regards
Lorraine
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Outstanding...3rdly. To find the book 2ndly. For them to read the handwriting and first and foremost ...To have asked the question and known to ask again.
Congrats, Well Done and thanks for sharing.
JM
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Hi Lorraine,
Let me add my congratulations to your success at St Vincents Hospital! :)
(I guess my diffidence initially stemmed from my enquiries with Sydney Hospital a few years ago....my enquiry, then, about the possibility of there being records from the 1870's was met with polite laughter!)
However, given your 'coup', I rang Sydney Hospital again this morning and it seems they now have a Museum which houses records back to the 19th century. :D Unfortunately, the Curator is only there Tues-Thurs, 9-3:00pm, so I have an 'impatient' wait till then :-\ but will keep you posted.
When I originally saw that he died of paraplegia, after a short illness in 1876, I thought he may have had some kind of bad mining injury, however, I'm starting to wonder if he may have had some kind of chronic condition from which he eventually died....
Paul
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Paul,
That was indeed my assumption, In view of the fact that he was admitted in 1874, I have extended the time period I was searching on Trove to try to find some sort of report of a mining accident.
While there are many mining accident reports I have not located that one. He could also have been in Sydney for some reason and met with an accident here, but I haven't found it yet. (I am still wondering why he was moved from Parkes - way out west for the time - to Sydney for treatment)
The other thing I have noticed is that the OCR text that is used for the Search on Trove is not all that good for this time and for the more regional newspapers.
It may require a systematic look through the newspaper pages to find some reference - or there may not be one.
It is a pitty the "Diagnosis" column was not filled in, that would have helped in identifying the health issue he had at the time. As you say he may have had some infection or desease that led to developing paraplegia - we may never know.
With reference to the Archives at St Vincent's, it may be a relatively recent development for the Archives and the assistance they are now able to give. Many places have only, in the recent past, realised the necessity to Archives their material. Thank goodness they are there and that they were so helpful.
Lorraine
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Hi Lorraine,
This is just a brief note to say that Eleanor, the Curator of the Sydney Hospital Archives, was unable to assist with any information on Jules Francois Anseline, as the records there don't go back to 1876.
It took quite some time to reach her as she had been unable to go to work at the end of last year because of flooding from the Sydney storms and then, of course, there has been the holiday season...
Meanwhile, she did suggest that a letter sent to a person C/- a hospital might mean that they were 1)a patient or alternatively, 2)an employee (but there is more than enough evidence you uncovered that he was a patient and not a hospital employee at St Vincents).
Paul.
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Paul,
A pity but not unexpected. At least every avenue has been tried and we know probably as much as we are going to, unless someone in the family finds a box filled with treasures that fills in the gaps - I can dream!!!!
Thanks for passing on the info,
Lorraine
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Yes, very thorough searchings, and yes, trove OCR is a headache at times, best to view the image, and also to be selective with keywords and timeframe ... and have a huge dose of patience along with quiet time and clean specs...
Well Done,
Fingers crossed the elusive secret box of treasured family history is found in the attic or under the floorboards ... tomorrow ...
JM