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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Taylor111 on Sunday 19 August 18 20:14 BST (UK)
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So 6 years in and still none the wiser.
Now my 3rd great grandfather is a mystery. To save any time, I know about each and everyone of his children and their children and their children ;D
But he is a mystery.
So I have him on 3 census 1891 says he is alien Switzerland. 1901 says he is alien Switzerland.
And 1911 a month before he dies, which I believe he wrote this one himself, says Germany! All while living in London.
Next puzzle, his wife, their is no marriage that can be found, and wonder if it could of been in France, which I will explain why.
Their 2nd child born 1984 have a birth record in French if anyone one like to see, says Paris, so maybe they could of married in Paris.
He was a Stonemason by trade, and wonder what they could of been doing in Paris? The birth record for 2nd child has an address, which I have tried searching, but nothing comes up.
The rest of the children were all born in London and again I know all about their pasts/futures.
So before I give he's and he's wives details, I will also add, I could not find any nationalization record, or any shipping record, wonder how they got to Paris and back, as the 3rd,4th,5th and 6th child all born back in London.
He seems from the one photo I have a distinguished gentleman, he paid into a work trade union which I found a record off and his cause of death.
So I have his name as William Otto Morsty Mathis born 1858 and died 10 MAY 1911
and his wife Ellen Jane Gough born 1858 4 Plough Court, Saint Clement Danes and died 27 JAN 1907 Wandsworth.
I thought their must be a shipping record or something somewhere if they were in Paris too, the birth record mentioned them both as husband and wife in Paris.
Anyone feeling brave is welcome thanks :-)
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There are no passenger lists for people travelling between England and the continent.
Previous topic- http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=767382.0
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Hi
It would be interesting to see the original birth entry for the child born in Paris.
So can you tell us in which arrondissement of Paris you have found this birth entry.
http://archives.paris.fr/r/123/archives-numerisees/
Regards
Svenja
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Mathis, as a surname, occurs widely in German speaking north and eastern Switzerland from the 19th century backwards. You would therefore need to pin down the exact community of origin to find any local records.
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pb-devon, I wouldn't be able to, wouldn't a clue where to start. There are people who have tried 20 years searching past him or just finding any clue as to how he came to be in England, with no luck.
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Their son Maurice Otto MATHIS was born in Paris, 7th arrondissement, on December 15th, 1884. Rue de l'Exposition n° 21
http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTgtMDgtMjEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NDtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MjMwODQwO3M6MTY6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWwiO2I6MTtzOjIxOiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sX21vZGUiO3M6NDoicHJvZCI7fQ==#uielem_move=-592%2C103&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=125&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
View 28 - number 1704
Declaration made by the father three days later. He is 27 years old and a stonemason. His wife Ellen GOUGH is also 27 years old.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rue_de_l%27Exposition
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Hello,
so, he could be from Switzerland or Germany.
Let's try Switzerland first: have you searched the register of Swiss surnames ? http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/famn/?lg=e. Type Mathis , before 1800 and 19th century. You obtain a list of cantons and cities ( 5 cantons for the name Mathis ).
what are the capital letters for ? see here http://kunden.eye.ch/swissgen/kanton-m.htm
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Hello,
so, he could be from Switzerland or Germany.
Let's try Switzerland first: have you searched the register of Swiss surnames ? http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/famn/?lg=e. Type Mathis , before 1800 and 19th century. You obtain a list of cantons and cities ( 5 cantons for the name Mathis ).
what are the capital letters for ? see here http://kunden.eye.ch/swissgen/kanton-m.htm
Hence my comment in post#3.
If the OP is really keen, then an enquiry to the civil registry offices of all the communities listed would be a starting point. A large task, but at least might produce an answer, even if a negative one!
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Morsty seems unprobable, so I searched a little . Ancestry gives him as William Mority, or Morito , Otto Mathis, unprobable too, but who knows. Family Search gives him , census 1911 ,as William Montz Otto MATHIS. So may be you should not be too precise with the Christian names when filling in forms, enter William Otto could be more productive.
And more , in Switzerland or Germany the first name won't be William but may be Wilhem.
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deleted wrong topic
As he calls his son Maurice, we can assume that his third given name was Moritz.
Mathis families in Switerzland according to the register of Swiss names
http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/famn/index.php
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Yes, of course , you are right for the third name. ;)
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What's about DNA?
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Hi
In Switzerland registry offices only started in 1875, for earlier years you have to look in the churchbooks. In most Cantons of Switzerland the churchbooks are hold by the State Archives. Some State Archives have put their churchbooks online, others you will find on familysearch and Fribourg has any census of the 19th century online also on familysearch. Some Cantons have Familienregister, Stammbücher or Bürgerbücher which were started sometimes in the 19th century. In some Cantons they are hold by the registry office or a separate office, in other Cantons they are hold by the State Archives.
Regards
Svenja
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Of course Svenja, I had forgotton the 1875 date.
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Hi
Someone had already opened a thread in the Swiss Forum Geneal-Forum in the year 2012.
https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=14292
Regards
Svenja
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Do you know where was born their first child?
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Well spotted Svenja.
We seem to be going round in circles on this one, so I will leave it to others....though IMHO it appears a fruitless task, as the OP realised in the beginning!
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Hi
Next puzzle, his wife, their is no marriage that can be found, and wonder if it could of been in France
As it was mentionned earlier in this thread maybe Mathis wasn't the father of the first child. So it's possible that they met and married in Paris, where the second child was born. Did someone search for their marriage in Paris?
I'm trying to find some information about stonemasons from Switzerland in France or elsewhere. I searched on gallica (National Library of France with newspapers of Paris)
https://gallica.bnf.fr/accueil/?mode=desktop
and on e-periodica (with periodicals about local history and genealogy in Switzerland) but found nothing about the time in question.
https://www.e-periodica.ch/
Regards
Svenja
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I did search for their marriage in Paris. No luck so far.
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I only found banns in the names of François MERME and Ellen GOUGH in 1873. Her parents are Patrick GOUGH and Marie DUNNE.
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03/MAY/1873 Paris, 9th arrondissement
Marriage record of François MERME and Ellen GOUGH, born "dans le district de Wallesey, comté de Chester, Angleterre" on June 30th, 1848. Her parents live in Liverpool.
http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTgtMDgtMjUiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NDtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MjE3NDU3O3M6MTY6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWwiO2I6MTtzOjIxOiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sX21vZGUiO3M6NDoicHJvZCI7fQ==#uielem_move=-130%2C-133&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=186&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 14 - number 461
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallasey
and she passed away in Lyon in 1909. This time her birthplace is listed as Seacombe.
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Which means that it was another Ellen Gough.
The one who married in 1873 was 24 years'old , she died in Lyon february 1909 (5th arr, nb 184 ), still the spouse of François Merme and the mother of Maurice in 1884 is said to be 27 .
Has somebody tried to find the marriage Mathis/Gough at the British Embassy ?
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[quote author=Taylor111 link=topic=798900.msg6562084#msg6562084 date=1534706074
So before I give he's and he's wives details, I will also add, I could not find any nationalization record, or any shipping record, wonder how they got to Paris and back, as the 3rd,4th,5th and 6th child all born back in London.
[/quote]
Do you know the birthdate of their first child?
Added: I've searched (like some others) the 20 arrondissements of Paris and found no marriage Mathis /Gough in the "Tables decennales" from 1873 to 1893.
If they married in Paris , maybe they went to the British Embassy to get married, or they married in the suburb (but where?).
Cause of death etc...here:
https://warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/explorefurther/subject_guides/family_history/stone/obituaries/ma/
Can you try to find trace of him in the newspapers ?
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MATHIS before 1800 and during the 19th century is found in 5 cantons : AG (AARGAU), GR (GRAUBUNDEN), NW (NIDWALDEN), SG (St Gallen),ZH (ZURICH).
Here are the websites of the Swiss cantons where you can search :
https://www.eda.admin.ch/countries/chad/en/home/services/genealogy/research-switzerland/staatsarchive.html
But it seems rather difficult .
Maybe you could change the title of your post and clearly state that you search WMO MATHIS born Switzerland 1857/1858 in order to catch the attention of a specialist in Switzerland.
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Hi
As far as I know it is not sure if he came from Switzerland or from Germany.
You can only research in Switzerland, if you know his place of birth or his place of origin.
The Swiss Surnames Book does mention the place(s) of origin/citizenship of the surnames.
For every place it mentiones the surnames which still had citizenship there in the 1960ies.
I have already tried to find something in the newspapers of Paris (they are online on gallica).
I'm also trying to find some information about stonemasons from Switzerland which went abroad.
You should always think to search for all possible spelling variatons of the names, such as
William, Wilhelm, Guillaume or Morris, Moritz, Mauritz, Maurice, that makes it difficult.
A Stonemason in Switzerland was called Steinmetz, Steinhauer or Steinbildhauer.
Regards
Svenja
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Hello Taylor111
William Otto Mority Mathis was my great grandfather.
Would you like to get in touch.