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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: scarlettslipper on Monday 20 August 18 12:32 BST (UK)
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Im tracing my great aunt Emma Knight born 1834 in Swineshead Lincs and her daughter Emma Jane Knight born in Sleaford Lincs 1851
I have traced the birth records for both of them but on each there is no father's name recorded on either and the older mother Emma is marked as unmarried by the census returns for 1851 1871 when she worked at Belvoir castle as a ladies maid then in 1881 when she worked as a ladies maid in Knipton Lodge Leicester birth place Swineshead lincs aged 42 unmarried along with her daughter Emma Jane who who was one of two nurses there recorded as 29 a Nurse unmarried birth place Sleaford Lincs ???
in 1901 Emma Jane Knight the younger was a nurse in no 14 Belgrave Square London single aged 44 born in Sleaford Lincs
The last census that records them both working together as general servants is in 1911 at Swaylands House Penshurst Kent, older Emma Knight is 77 and younger Emma Jane Knight is 58
i have traced a death record for the older Emma Knight for Boston Lincs 1917 when she was 82
it may be a workhouse death
The other Emma Jane i have no death record for -were they cousins or mother and daughter as they worked everywhere together. :-\
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Have you found the younger Emma in 1851, 1861, 1871 censuses?
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in 1851 she is recorded at living at Great Hale Farm Lincs her birthplace is Swinehead Lincs and she is aged 18 and working as a ground draper? recorded as the Sister of Frederick Knight, Head of household, Cordwainer aged 20 birthplace Swinehead Lincs
yes then I have her without her brother Frederick she was a servant at the house of a proprietary miner Thomas francis connington and his wife Marie in Horncastle lincs in 1861 on the census I think its her as her birthplace is swineshead lincs, her birthplace is always consistent on all the census returns as Swinehead Lincs who were her parents I don't know, thanks its so puzzling ???
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Emma & Frederick are with their parents John & Sarah in 1841 Swineshead.
HO107/611 bk11 f36 p5
ADDED They were both baptised in Swineshead parents John & Sarah
Frederick 04 Jul 1830
Emma 17 Oct 1832
Swineshead baptism images are available on lincstothepast
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This Emma:
Emma Jane Knight born in Sleaford Lincs 1851
in 1851, 1861, 1871?
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Emma J seems to be with her Grandparents in 1851 but down as their Daug;
John Knight 57
Sarah A Knight 53
Sarah A Knight 22
William Knight 17
Emma Knight 3 mths
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John KNIGHT married Sarah Ann LAMB 06 Jun 1822 Swineshead
1871;
Emma J Knight, Nurse, F, 21, born Sleaford, Lincolnshire
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Burial for EMMA Knight 27 Aug 1914, St Mary, Swineshead.
Age 82
Abode Swineshead (nothing about residence the Workhouse)
+ Burial SARAH Knight 23 Sep 1868 same Church age 70 (1798)
Cant find a Burial for William there or Sarah in 1861 Census
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Sarah & Emma are in Swineshead in 1861 -transcribed as Wright
RG09 /2339 f18 p12
John was buried Swineshead 07 Jan 1855 -age 61
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As already mentioned Emma jnr was a 21 year old nurse in Spalding in 1871
RG10 /3321 f78 p4
Think we have her now in 51/61/71 ;D
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Good find Rosie with 1861 Census :)
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I think we have done well between us all ;D
Presumably Emma juniors birth
KNIGHT, EMMA (no mothers maiden name) -
GRO Reference: 1851 March Quarter in SLEAFORD Volume 14 Page 583
I think Emma J is in Cuckfield area just before WW2. ;D
Possible death in Kent :-\
Deaths Dec 1943
Emma J Knight age 92 Tonbridge 2a 1501
Though she could have died anywhere
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thanks so much for your expertise in helping me trace these two Emmas my only question is there are two sets of parents who had the same names John and Sarah with a daughter called Emma 1841 census shows Sarah and John Knight as Master and Mistress of the Union Workhouse im wondering if Emma the older born in 1834 was they're daughter as the other John and Sarah Knight lived at Great Hale and were shoemakers- i think the two Emmas must have been able to read and write to have been taken around the country by the Drummond/Manners family where in 1901 Emma Jane was working in Belgrave Square London as a nurse possibly to the duke of rutland who died of gout in Belgrave square I shant feel too sorry for him as he drunk buckets of Claret and was a big gambler he must have really kept Emma busy and most likely kept her on for a reason! - though we shall never know I like to think the two emmas were pensioned off and sent back to Lincolnshire to end theyre days would be a nice thought! ::)
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Bear in mind the seat of the Dukes of Rutland is Belvoir Castle, many of the workers on the estate are to be found around Knipton and Woolsthorpe.
If she was at Belvoir in 1851 then many of my ancestors may have known her as they too lived and worked on the estate, the local churchyard has an entire line of stones for my ancestral family. Knight is a name in my tree a couple of times but after a quick check mine appear to be Barton area, interesting that the earliest is an Emma abt 1858.
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Thanks Glen, yes I realised Belvoir is the Duke of Rutlands family seat after reading the Census entry for the night of 1871!
There were at least most of the Earls Countesses and Duchess of the UK and Princess Mary of Teck and Prince Christian the huge list just keep going on and on plus an enormous number of servants an equerry to Prince Christian too, plus two Ladies maids of whom was Emma and particularly impressive at least six footmen!
What on earth was going on the evening the census enumerators came knocking, the mind boggles and what on earth does a footman do! Beats Downton Abbey and the Crawley family hands down! ;D
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A big thanks to you too Trish I might send off for the some of those certificates and its good to know the church was St Marys if it still exists. My grandmother on my father's side was a Knight by marriage as my paternal grandfather was William Edward Knight and the Knights were Supposed to have come from Leicester, they intermarried with Arnold family and Robinsons though ive never managed to trace any of them successfully. Emma, my grandmother told me was her husbands aunt, they used to visit her in around 1924 ish in Leicester when she was old and very poor my grandmother said she died in the workhouse but had travelled with a grand family to Russia as a nurse/governess as by her bed she had a solid silver Russian church icon from her travels. Sadly she died shortly after that hopefully not in the workhouse. Id love to trace her voyage if it ever existed. :-\
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Many thanks rosie,
im nearly finished with Emmas life all except her fabled voyage to Russia with the Drummond/Manners family whom she seems to have spent her whole life working for.
she had a very interesting life compared to brother Frederick who never moved from great Hale until his death in 1901 at 72. :-\
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You can see which John & Sarah are the elder Emma's parents. Emmas brother Frederick is also living with them in 1841 so not the workhouse couple.
I presume you have found the younger Emma on the 1939 register, sorry I am not allowed to give any details from that database.
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Hi Rosie and thanks again the puzzles coming together slowly, I hadn't looked on 1939 register yet, perhaps it means she must have been a private nurse as I think she was a nurse at Great Hale too in 1871 for the farm there. Her family were boot and shoemakers and agricultural labourers so they must have been very proud of her especially working at the Castle and travelling with the Duke of Rutlands family to Belgrave Square, Knightsbridge.
She would have seen the Dukes private doctors using leeches as he suffered from gout perhaps he needed her nursing capacities to help his painful condition he seems to have thought highly of her to take her everywere until his death in 1901 where the Drummonds keep her on at Swaylands House now just an old general servant along with the much Older Emma perhaps a cousin. :-\
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It is certainly good to be able to trace her career right through her life. :)
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They certainly knew how to spend money, the expense sheet for the Belvoir Hunt in 1786 shows the huntsman and two of his colleagues were paid over £140 in wages alone, my farrier/smith ancestor received over £21 and lived over the stables on the estate, as did his son and later his grandson in the early census years. Another branch of the same line were surgeons and apothecaries, largely around Ropsley and Great Hale from the mid 1700's until the latter part of the 1800's. It dies seem, that whatever their occupations my lot seemed to be in, or around the estate lands in a number of areas over many years.
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As no Baptism can be found for Emma Jane her Birth Cert may be the only way to find who her Mother was.
As John/Sarah had several Daughters any of them may be her Mother;
Emma 1824, died 1825
Louisa 1826
Sarah Ann 1828
Emma 1832
I would put my money on Sarah possibly as she is at home in 1851 Census where Emma J is 3mths old.
It was very interesting to read all the info you have on the Families the girls worked for :)
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I too have found it interesting and am wondering about the relationship between the Drummonds and the Manners.
It is astonishing to see the numbers of servants etc employed especially in the census re Belvoir Castle where I can see some Drummonds in the census.
I think both Emmas worked for the Drummonds though after 1871 rather than the Duke of Rutland’s family.
The 1901 address for Emma Jane is a Drummond residence whilst the older Emma is in Kent with the family.
Have I gone wrong somewhere?
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Hi Heywood, no your'e not wrong.
When Emma was at Knipton Lodge in 1881 one of the Drummond children was Adeliza who was named her grandmother Adeliza Norman whose mother was a Manners.
I have noticed that when Emma is working as a nurse in 14 Belgrave Square in 1901 she isn't down as a nurserymaid or a professionall nurse to the sick as there seem to be three categories of nurse in 1901.
Professional nurse to the sick
Nurse
Nurserymaid
If you read the lists of various households and theyre members staying at Belgrave Square and surrounding squares and streets on that night of 1901 there are peers sons, the Countess of Sefton, William Deedes and Rosa Deedes, Francis Thynne, John York and his wife Sophie who was born in Holland, and Kennelm Digby who sounds familiar plus many others including umpteen footmen coachmen ladies maids domestics butlers equerryies a vast army of servants some in the grand houses others to be found in all of the squares mews.
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Hi Trish youre probably right about Emma's mother being Sara, although as I see Emma on the 1851 census at Great Hale Farm with her brother Frederick she is 18 and a ground breaker or draper and Frederick is a cordwainer. Im guessing her child baby Emma Jane was left with her grandparents as Emma and Frederick are living alone at Great Hale in 1851 so mum Emma probably left baby Emma Jane with her grandparents and sister Sarah to look after. Its interesting to see a marriage for Emma/ mother? in July 1861 Sleaford at Helpringham. Maybe she only married baby Emma Jane's father when Emma Jane was around 10 years old. Could explain quite a bit there. :-\
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Help with Hugh and John Hugh Roos
Can someone look up the birth of a Hugh Roos in Scotland he was born around 1867 and was a Butler in 14 Belgrave Square on the 1901 Census night can anyone trace him on the 1871 or 1881 1911 census as i just draw blanks :-[
A very strange coincidence that on 1901 census night another John Hugh Roos also born in Inverness Scotland was boarding with a couple called Lambert who were in the joinery trade in Horsely Road Paddington London where he is shown as aged 30 and a furniture remover. :-\
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Thanks for the connection :)
George J Drummond’s probate in 1917 gives his address as 14 Belgrave Square and 14 Charing Cross. This is the 1901 address for Emma Jane.
It looks as though she remained with the Drummond family.
Where do you have her nursing in the Duke of Rutland’s household?
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Hi Heywood I should have been more than happy to be able to follow one Emma Knight around the country let alone two who worked together, Emma senior the ladies maid and general servant in Swaylands House, Penshurst and her daughter Emma Jane the Nurse at Belgrave Square later on she too went off to Swaylands.
The Drummonds must have been out on the night of that census possibly travelling abroad with theyre children as theyre not shown on the 1901 census for Belgrave Square perhaps they were at theyre bank house in Charing Cross as you said no 17.
They were bankers in a very old London bank which was used by royalty of the time and seem to have been born in Stanmore Middlesex inter marrying with the Manners family at various points. I suppose that explains Drummonds at Belvoir on 1871 and in Knipton at the Drummond household. George James Drummonds wife was Elizabeth Cecile Drummond nee Norman whose mother was Adeliza Norman nee Manners she married Reverend Norman He was the rector at Bottesford the ancient family church and tangled up in the Manners family too. There are also these combinations at Belvoir census a Robert Norman Manners cousin,an Alfred Manners Drummond, Elizabeth Fredericka Drummond nee Manners- Charles Manners- Duke of Rutlands sister and George Manners brother of Charles Manners DoRutland.
I found that the english aristocracy seemed to make dynastic marriages amongst themselves so can be quite intertwined genetically. Although the Drummonds seem a very kindly family to have kept the two Emmas on long after they were nurse and a ladies maid. ::)
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The Drummond family are at Swaylands in 1901 with a host of servants etc.
Emma snr is listed.
1891 census also shows all the houses in Belgrave Square with just a few servants. I presume they were just their ‘London homes’.
I had read about the banking family as a result of this interesting thread.
I just did not understand about Emma Jane being a nurse in the household of the Duke of Rutland when it seems clear that she was employed by the Drummonds, for the main part in Kent.
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Well Heywood thanks for your input, but you must remember I am just a newbie at this and it took me a while to sort out the two Emmas to begin with. Im guessing the older Emma threw me out a bit now I realise she started off at Belvoir and worked with the Drummond Norman household and secured a position for daughter Emma Jane as a nurse. Id really love to know if Emma Jane ever travelled abroad with the Drummond's as the children she looked after at Knipton , Adeliza, Cecilia and Ida M Drummond were grandchildren of Lady Adeliza Gertrude Manners who died in 1877 she was the 5th Dukes daughter. She must have adored her grandchildren they added to theyre family as well and I have records for all of them and they mostly all died in the mid 1960's except for one or two of the elder ones. It may be possible the Lucans' banked with Drummonds im sure most of society seemed to have theyre custom. Its touching that they valued the two Emma's from fenland Swineshead so much family retainers if you like. :'(
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Hopefully they were good employers as the two ladies remained with them for many years.
I have just looked at Find my Past newspaper records. I can only see snippets -you need a subscription.
These are some mentions
August 1917
Banker leaves ...
£100 to Emma Knight late his children’s nurse.
December 1943
Miss Emma Jane Knight 92yrs
A sweet and outstanding personality. She had been the nurse and greatly beloved friend of the late Mr and Mrs George Drummond, their children and grandchildren..
Isn’t that lovely!
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Another one
December 1943
“One of the oldest members our Club, Miss Emma Knight, aged 93. is lying seriously ill, and I would like us to send her many happy thoughts. She is wonderful little lady and I shall always feel privileged te have met her.”
Sorry, if you already have these plus do you have her will details?
Emma Jane Knight died December 1943 - probate granted to a solicitor.
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Emma Knight snr’s probate
‘Of Swineshead, Lincolnshire , spinster died August 1914.
Probate to Maurice Joseph Johnson, estate agent and Emma Jane Knight, spinster.’
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Hi Heywood that's Absolutely made me weep!
I knew Emma Jane was more than just the children's nurse.
She was a much loved and valued friend to this family over generations. Being the women she was described as in your clipping (which I shall treasure) she was motivated by love, for George James Drummond who was only two years younger than her, his wife, children and grandchildren. I am thinking of writing an account of her as there will be much to write about and she deserves it.
You have absolutely put the icing on the cake for me, by your kindness in sharing your clippings, well thats no too well put, but thanks im still wiping moist eyes. :-*
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Sorry its me again had to break to feed the cat - so I just missed those Will snippets and the other cuttings of news of her illness, that's really blown me away, I don't have those and Never would have discovered them Either! you've definitely spurred me on to write a book of her life now.
Was doing some research into
Celtic studies but will now abandon them for the writing of Emma Jane's story which I sure will exert a fascination for readers as its totally gripped me :) perhaps I shall present a copy to Belvoir Castle if its well written enough it would merit that.
Better sign off the midnight hour is here but you are Very generous indeed
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If you go to Find my past and search the Newspaper records - her name and Swaylands you can see the snippets.
They are to be treasured - she seemed to be a lovely lady from the notice when she was ill.
You can also order copies of the wills.
Did you see this - the Drummonds with Princess Mary of Teck (later Queen Mary)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Princess_Mary_of_Teck_at_Swaylands.jpg
Here it is again with more information re the family.
https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Swaylands
Good luck with the account :)
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no i didnt tomorrow will be another day of discovery - a clairvoyant recently told me i would write a book about a very well dressed remarkable victorian lady in my family i just chuckled most unlikely i said, although i love history and then i remembered my late grandmother writing about an usual lady called Emma Knight who'd travelled to Russia and i was fascinated - i only started my research last week but i just cant believe what your sharing with me i feel privileged to try and write her account i only wish i had a photograph of her but still you cant have everything! Fascinating that she'd met royalty and was true to herself as always, a loyal, modest discreet little lady.
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Can someone look up the birth of a Hugh Roos in Scotland he was born around 1867
I think the surname is more likely Ross?
2 possibles although favouring the 1868 from familysearch although downloadable from scotlandspeople.gov.uk (pay-per-view) by credits
Hugh Ross 14 November 1868
Inverness, Inverness, Scotland
Father: James Ross
Mother Isabella Gallie
Hugh Ross 9 November 1870
Duthil with Rothiemurchus, Inverness, Scotland
Father: William Ross
Mother:Ann Munro
Annie
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John Hugh Roos also born in Inverness Scotland
I'm not finding a John Hugh but there's a few named John.
Does it state on the census Inverness or Inverness, Inverness-shire or Inverness-shire?
Annie