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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: harfielc on Monday 20 August 18 20:04 BST (UK)
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Hi there
I've searched best I can on Ancestry, Folio3, Forces war Records, Internet. I cannot find my way around the national archive site.
William Kell born 1796 Wiltshire
Army number 81
1811 joined 62nd regiment on foot - 25/6/1811 - 31/12/1828
1829 62nd Regiment - 1/1/1829 - 31/10/1830
1930 transferred to 81st regiment on foot - 1/11/1830 - 6/6/1843
Service shows Spain for 1.5 years, Holland and France for 9 months, N.America for 8.5 years - BUT no dates.
He ended up as Drum Major having once being demoted to drummer after a drunken event in 1833.
Source of above Folio3 copies of enrolment, discharge papers.
One possible source (http://www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/the-81st-loyal-lincolnshire-volunteers-regiment-of-foot/) suggests garrison duty 1817 - 1853 in canada, Gibraltar, W Indies, England, Ireland but that's all.
Specifically I'd like to know:
1. Where can I find a summary including dates of this regiments movements? Specifically where and when in Ireland as I am also trying to trace his daughters birthplace and marriage details.
2. Where would he and his family have lived during that time as he had all his kids during his army career.
Thank you very much in advance.
C
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From TNA British Army worldwide Index ref WO 12/8554:
William Kell
Service number 81
Drum Major 81st Foot
In 1841 at Charlesfort, Kinsale
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at
1816.03.24 81st Regiment of Foot
redesignated upon disbandment of 2nd Battalion (absorbed its personnel)
1817 Ireland
1822 Nova Scotia
1826 New Brunswick
1829 West Indies
1831 England
1832 Ireland
1836 Gibraltar
1839 West Indies
1843 Canada
1847 England
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Hi
Wow that was fast - how did you find that in the national Archives?
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Hi
Second Wow - How did you find all that out so quick? I've spent all day!
Where in Ireland?
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Just checking something as the 1841 index has him in Ireland....but the regiment were supposed to be in the West Indies ?
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https://web.archive.org/web/20071221233636/http://regiments.org/deploy/uk/reg-inf/081-1.htm
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Victorian era Edit
1817 – 1853: Garrison Duty in Canada, Gibraltar, The West Indies, England and Ireland Edit
The regiment garrisoned the Ireland until being transferred to Canada in 1822. After seven years in Canada, the regiment were sent to the West Indies, spending two years in Bermuda before being returned to England in 1831.[40] After rotating through stations in England and Ireland, the regiment was on the move again, being stationed at Gibraltar in 1836, reinforcing the garrison there when tensions started to escalate during the First Carlist War. After nine years on the Rock, the regiment was once again sent back to the West Indies. Three years in the West Indies' outposts of Barbados, Trinidad and Tobago, and St. Kitts were followed by years in Canada. The regiment would be returned home to England in 1847.[41] After serving in various stations in England and Ireland, the regiment was sent on foreign service again, this time to India in 1853.[42]
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From GRO Regimental Birth Indices (1761 To 1924)
Catherin Kell
b 1835 Dublin
Regiment 81st Foot
Volume 23 p 43
Archive reference REG1
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From Gro Regimental Birth Indices (1761 To 1924)
Mary A Kell
b 1832 Dublin
Regiment 81st Foot
Volume 23 p 40
Archive reference REG1
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From same source:
William Kell
b 1837 Clare
Regiment 81st Foot
Volume 23 p 48
Archive reference REG1
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Do you know his wife's name?
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1851 census in Manchester states his wife is called Margaret. Do you have the marriage?
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Hi
His wife is Margaret. But I don't have maiden name. Can't find marriage certificate. All the children birth places are from the census. For Thomas, born later, there are lists of maiden names which might be a possibility. I have not checked each of these out.
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Looks like William also became a drum major.
From TNA ref WO 97 - British Army Service Records 1760-1913
William Kell b 1838, Clare
Service number 2775
DRUM MAJOR 46th Reg Of Foot
Attestation date 3 Apr 1852 aged 14
Same regiment & service nbr on discharge
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Looking at the original image of the damaged 1851 census.......the Samuel you have looks like Sarah. Clearly states daughter?
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haha you've better eyes than me! I agree.
I wish i could use the national archives and find people on the GRO military list you use.
Thanks
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haha you've better eyes than me! I agree.
I wish i could use the national archives and find people on the GRO military list you use.
Thanks
I'm not using the national archives. I'm using findmypast. And Irish genealogy.i.e
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Bear with me......there is this baptism
DUBLIN (RC) , ST. JAMES
CATHERINE KELL bapt 8 December
daughter of WILLIAM KELL & ROSE DOORIS
Sponsors JOHN KELL & JOHANNA GRIFFIN
Book Number 2 Page 70 Entry 1092 ref DU-RC-BA-332079
There is also a birth in Cheshire in 1839
Benjamin Kell birth reg Jun qtr 1839 mms Doris RD Great Boughton Cheshire
Volume 19 p 31
Benjamin seems to disappear from the records after this.......so did the parents decide to call him Thomas after that?
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I know the mum isn't Margaret in the baptism record......but ?
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Benjamin is the only birth with mother's maiden name Doris recorded in the GRO registers.
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Maybe if we can find the wedding cert. for William Kell or them listed on 1841 census we might have better idea.
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Unless William went on his own....we know he was in Ireland in 1841.....as per 1841 army index.
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I would order one of the army birth records for the children first. Although I have no idea what format they take. You can order a pdf certificate for £6 from the GRO.
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I believe that the army birth certificates do not give mother's maiden name.
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Some certainly do have MMN, Gortonboy. I
have several from the same family have looked through can find one [in Galway in 1881]. There are errors on the entry in the Army Register though compared with the GRO version. Date of birth on Army certificate 15 April, dob on GRO 5 April; child's name Philip James on GRO - same as death in 1882 - but James Renmore on Army register - Renmore being the name of the barracks family were living at. So I don't think the Army register was the best kept :-[
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I stand corrected. The ones I have looked at from the Army Group births did not. Can you post an example?
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This one for example does not.
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Here is one that does - James Renmore Murray [also the GRO entry with different details].
ADDED: Just noticed also that father is a sergeant on Army register, corporal on GRO...
Sorry for poor quality of pics, scanner out of use & I had to use phone camera.
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Hi
Thanks for all your help so far. Here's where I am at:
I have ordered BC for the babes born overseas.
1851 census - I am not convinced Margaret is correct mothers maiden name and I don't know where her place of birth is.
1841 census - Nope can't find even though he was still in the army then. Where are soldiers listed?
Marriage certificate - Nope can't find it
No record I can find of William Kell and Margaret Kell in 1861, 1871 etc.
No record I can find of William Kell's death
And...I don't understand how to find the births if stationed in Chatham say for Sarah Kell 1831 - how do you find UK born army kids?
He was in the 62nd regiments 25/6/1811 - 31/10/1830
He was in 81st regiment 1/11/1830 - 6/6/1843
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Unless William went on his own....we know he was in Ireland in 1841.....as per 1841 army index.
The 1841 army index is basically a military census. So William was in Kildare,Ireland in 1841.
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Allegedly died 1862 according to pension document.
From: Chelsea Hospital Admission Books etc 1702-1876 TNA ref WO 23/50 71-90 Foot
Wm Kell
Regiment 81st Foot
Pension year 1843
Death year 1862
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William Kell
Death regitered Mar quarter 1862 Birmingham RD
Vol 6D Page 69
His pension was transferred from Manchester district to Birmingham district as noted in this pension record
From WO22/4 Pension Payments 1842-1883
William Kell
Regiment 81st Foot
Pension year 1843
Date of return Nov 1855
Piece description Birmingham District: comprising the places of payment, Birmingham; Lichfield (up to 30 September 1860); Tamworth (up to 30 September 1860); Alvechurch; Solihull (up to 31 March 1859); Henly in Arden (up to 30 September 1860); Sutton Coldfield (up to 31 March 1859); Wolverhampton (from 31 March 1861); Dudley (from 31 March 1861); Walsall (from 31 March 1861); West Bromwich (from 31 March 1861), and Wednesbury (from 31 March 1861).
Year range 1852-1862
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Age at death as given by GRO was 63
KELL, WILLIAM 63
GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 69
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Can't see him in the 1861 census in Warwickshire though 🤔
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Can't see him in the 1861 census in Warwickshire though 🤔
He could be on one of the missing pieces, GB. There are many in the 1861. I think FindMyPast lists them.
Gadget
Added - listed here - scroll down
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/world-records/full-list-of-united-kingdom-records/census-land-and-surveys/1861-england-wales-and-scotland-census
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Possible death for his wife....if indeed she is a Margaret. Again I cannot see her in the 1861 census in Birmingham.
Margaret Kell aged 60 death registered Birmingham RD Mar qtr 1866
Volume 6D p 96
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Possible death for his wife....if indeed she is a Margaret. Again I cannot see her in the 1861 census in Birmingham.
See my previous post .
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Only three districts. In Rugby not transcribed. So unless they were living there?
Think I will quit on this thread...the lack of a token thank you has really got my goat. And I don't often make comments like that !!!
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Oh dear - I think the OP is grateful to you.
I know there were stray missing pieces which aren't listed. I'm still trying to find my grt grandfather in an area that's not listed. I trawled through many places ::)
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Hi
The help you have both provided is amazing, especially the speed. It can take me hours just to find the evidence source you mention. I am truly grateful and have learned a lot.
This week i have followed up on all your pieces of advice and tried to track back to the sources and ordered any certificates suggested that may unravel the evidence I need to continue building my tree.
I don't understand the "token thanks", what did I not do?
Hoping to hear back from you.
C
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Hi Can I ask whether you can give me the link to the evidence of the reallocation of W Kell pension. Post #32 made today?
I thought I had really studied his army record and couldn't find that about the reallocation.
Thanks
C
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Hi
The help you have both provided is amazing, especially the speed. It can take me hours just to find the evidence source you mention. I am truly grateful and have learned a lot.
This week i have followed up on all your pieces of advice and tried to track back to the sources and ordered any certificates suggested that may unravel the evidence I need to continue building my tree.
I don't understand the "token thanks", what did I not do?
Hoping to hear back from you.
C
I just thought that a thank you in one of your replies would be a nice comment.
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Hi Can I ask whether you can give me the link to the evidence of the reallocation of W Kell pension. Post #32 made today?
I thought I had really studied his army record and couldn't find that about the reallocation.
Thanks
C
The pension records are not in his service records...but are separate records . They are available on findmypast.
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William Kell age 63 buried 14 Mar 1862 St Martin, Birmingham
He was residing g in Suffolk Street.
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Hi Gorton
Thank you very much for getting back to me. I will ensure I am courteous on all future communications. I apologise for any offence caused. I do really value the help provided.
I've ordered the certificates for William and Margaret's deaths. So let's see what they uncover.
If you are up for some more... I'd like to look again at finding a wedding certificate for these 2 AND finding out where brinny Ocean is as stated as place of birth on 1851 damaged census. I've looked through page after page on that census looking for other entries for xxxx ocean or brinny ocean and couldn't see any. Does it refer to the Atlantic? Could she be Canadian?
C
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I would suggest that the 'Briny Ocean' is just a way of saying 'the briny' as in 'the sea' in general. Perhaps the enumerator was just told 'born at sea'.
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Hi..no problem....a small thank you is always appreciated.
I have searched and searched again for a marriage...but cannot locate one. Hopefully,one of the army birth records will confirm her first name.
I have no idea what the birthplace reference on the 1851 census is referring to. Just that the second word does look like ocean. I am assuming she was born at sea.
Let us await confirmation of her first name.
Regards the deaths ..I am a hundred percent confident that we have identified Williams ..the Margaret one was only a possible.
I have searched every name in Suffolk Street in the , 1861 census in Birmingham...I cannot find William.
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hi
Thanks. Mmmmmm the plot thickens! I'll be in touch once the certificates are in - be a week or 2.
Enjoy the bank holiday.
C
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Mary Ann Kell m Lawrence Kendrick 15 Nov 1852 at St Mary, St Denys and St George, Manchester
Her father's name was William Kell, husband's father was William Kendrick
William is noted as a musician.
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I would suggest that the 'Briny Ocean' is just a way of saying 'the briny' as in 'the sea' in general. Perhaps the enumerator was just told 'born at sea'.
I agree, Josey. I mentioned it on the other thread yesterday but I think it got buried in other info.
Gadget