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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: emmacx17 on Tuesday 21 August 18 22:43 BST (UK)
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Im hoping someone recognises these names as I would love to know more about my mums dads side :) I only know what ive found on ancestry.
George Ronald Kirk and Wilhelmina Kirk (maiden name trainer) are my great grandparents, All I know is that the Kirks (Georges family) are from Scotland but moved down to Newcastle Northumberland which is where Wilhelmina lived. They later moved to Woolwich, London in the 1940's and had 2 sons and 2 daughter, Ronald, Christina, Jean and David, after a few years in Woolwich George died very young he fell from Blackheath church in 1949.
I would really appreciate the help
Regards
Emma,
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Welcome to Rootschat
From freebmd
Births March qtr 1921
Trainer Wilhelmina mothers maiden name (mmn) Duxfield Newcastle on Tyne 10b 97
Marriages December qtr 1921
Duxfield Elizabeth
Trainer William Newcastle upon Tyne 10b 284
You will need to use www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk to look for George's birth. You can download a copy of his birth cert to get his parents names
No marriage showing for George and Wilhelmina in England
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Did Wilhelmina marry Walter H Kelly in 1953?
Where was George Ronald Kirk born?
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That is all correct and yes she did marry Walter :) I just cant seem to find anything on George other than his death and a few electoral records when he was living in woolwich
Im not sure where George was born all I know is Scotland
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They married in Ayr in 1939 as per Scotlands People. You can download a copy of the marriage cert from that site which will give you George's parents names and mothers maiden name. He is only shown as George on the marriage entry
but SP is showing a birth for a George Rogan Kirk in the timescale
Ignore that birth - he died aged 1yr
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Its a tricky one isnt it I wished I knew where in Scotland he was born. I really appreicate your help and time :)
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There's this possible birth on scotlandspeople;
KIRK GEORGE 1912
614/ 26 Stair (Ayr)
Annie
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Go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and buy a few credits. Use 6 of these to download the 1939 marriage certificate. It will tell you the full names of both of his parents, including their mothers' maiden surnames. It will also tell you how old he was, from which you can work out approximately when he was born. You can also look up his parents' marriage and see where they lived, which should give you an idea where he might have been born.
I see from https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl that he was said to be 35 when he died in 1949. That gives a birth year of 1913/1914.
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I don’t think he was born in Scotland but until you establish his parents names from the marriage cert you won’t be able to move on
Was his middle name definitely Ronald on his death cert?
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I agree the marriage cert. is the only way forward.
Looking at any births prior to the marriage isn't going to help as he may have been illegitimate & possibly even born Ronald George i.e. swapping names round (which has been known).
The possible I posted was for a later date i.e. after the marriage which was in Ayr too although he may have been born anywhere depending on his father's job etc?
Having checked SP, I think he may have been illegitimate although I may be wrong?
Annie
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I brought some credits from the site :)
Yes defiantly george ronald kirk on his death certificate but on his sons marriage certificate he goes by first name ronald states his occupation painter and decorator and that hes deceased the marriage record was from 1965 so that makes sense he died in 1949 :)
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Hi
You haven't answered the vital question - who were his parents on the 1939 marriage cert?
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Ive only just seen the ayr record have been trying to find it :) and now ive just used the credits his parents are john and mary kirk :D Thank you guys so much for your help and directing me to this site. Greatly appreicated :)
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What was his mothers maiden name?
How old is George on the marriage cert?
What was the full marriage date?
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Marriage date - 24th October 1939. Its hard to read it either he is 25 or 35.
His mothers maiden name is Williams. Both his parents deceased
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As he was 35 when he died in 1949 he was probably 25 when he married
The only John Kirk & Mary Williams marriage in England was 1890 in Liverpool
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A possible but after the birth of George, maybe a step-father?
KIRK JOHN WHITE & WILLIAMSON MARY JOHNSTON 1926
597/ 150 Kilmarnock (Ayr)
Annie
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Another possible & a better fit for timing?
KIRK JOHN & WILLIAMSON MARY 1899
621/ 39 Avondale (Lanark)
Maybe a check of 1901 then 1911 for occ.
Annie
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Good find - John was a ploughman in 1901 born 1877 Carscadden, Renfrewshire - is any occ shown for him on the 1939 marriage cert?
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Do you know if George had siblings as there's a
sis daughter Mary C Kirk aged 11 mnths b Strathaven, Lanarkshire on 1901?
Annie
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Birth in Avondale 1900 - Mary Carmichael Kirk
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Good find Carole!
Think she drops the 'C' in 1911 if I have the correct family?
John 35
Mary 33
Mary 11
Robert 9
John 7 (I'd missed him 1st time) ::)
James 1
Bit of a gap between John & James!
1911
KIRK JOHN 35
626/A2 5/ 29 Cadder (Eastern), Lanark
Annie
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If John & Mary were both deceased by the time of the 1939 marriage - the only John Kirk death I can find in Lanarkshire was aged 60 died 1938 Pollok
3 possibles for Mary
1917 aged 39 - Cathcart
1923 aged 41 - Bridgeton
1937 aged 57 - Tradeston
I wonder why George and Wilhelmina married in Ayr if his family were from Lanarkshire
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Mary Carmichael Kirk married Thomas Robertson in 1921 Linwood Renfrewshire
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Mary Carmichael Robertson aged 71 died 1971 Girvan
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If John & Mary were both deceased by the time of the 1939 marriage - the only John Kirk death I can find in Lanarkshire was aged 60 died 1938 Pollok
That would fit Carole as he was 24 (1901) c1877 & 35 (1911) c1876 & that death b c 1878.
3 possibles for Mary
1917 aged 39 - Cathcart
1923 aged 41 - Bridgeton
1937 aged 57 - Tradeston
I wonder why George and Wilhelmina married in Ayr if his family were from Lanarkshire
If he was a Painter & Decorator he may have moved around?
Looks like John from Valuation Rolls
KIRK JOHN
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE 15 WARD STREET, AVONDALE 1915 (which may have been Strathaven)?
VR010700304-
Possibly in Strathaven (Avondale) by 1920 but 2 to choose from with surname Kirkland?
Possible for 1930?
KIRKLAND JOHN
Tenant
HOUSE DUNLOP STREET STRATHAVEN, AVONDALE
1930
VR010700492-
Ditto 1935?
KIRKLAND JOHN
Tenant
HOUSE 10/A DUNLOP STREET STRATHAVEN, AVONDALE
1935
VR010700601-
Can't check further as the VRs end 1935
This would mean he'd moved or died in hospital if he died Pollock?
Annie
Got the alert...doing well there Carole ;)
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Hi Annie
If he was a Painter & Decorator he may have moved around?
Yes - that's a possibility he went where the work was
Be interesting to know what John's occ was on the 1939 marriage cert and also whether George was a painter and decorator when he married
What bothers me is the absence of a birth record for a George Ronald Kirk. There is a birth in 1914 in Cadder Eastern for a George Kirk which fits the 1911 location and the birthyear
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Wow im trying to keep up with you guys haha Thank you :) and yes it says john kirk was a ploughman :D and for George it says Hotel waiter (batchelor)
Also yes I have been told that George had a sister but that is all I know :)
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Yes defiantly george ronald kirk on his death certificate but on his sons marriage certificate he goes by first name ronald states his occupation painter and decorator and that hes deceased the marriage record was from 1965 so that makes sense he died in 1949 :)
Marriage
KIRK MARY CARMICHAEL & ROBERTSON THOMAS 1921
568/2 3 Linwood
It's very possible the middle name was added after his baptism/christening as I've come across some who 'acquired' middle names which weren't on their BCs ;D
Annie
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for George it says Hotel waiter (batchelor)
I'm confused, where, when & who does the Painter & Decorator refer?
Annie
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George had a son ronald kirk my grandfather, on ronalds marriage in 1965 the last occupation for george was painter decorator. Im assuming before he moved from scotland he was a hotel waiter but when he moved to london changed occupation and started doing decorating
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Thanks Emma, that makes sense.
Death
KIRK MARY 48
1927
573/2 18 Johnstone and Elderslie (Renfrew)
Corresponding Reg. No. for Mary WILLIAMSON
Annie
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Found Georges Birth :D
George kirk 1914 SEPT 25TH Cadder eastern - parents john kirk ploughman. Mary Williamson
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Carole,
What do you think?...
Mary Carmichael Kirk married 1921 Renfrew
Mary (Snr) died 1927 Renfrew
Death (same yr George married)?
KIRK JOHN 62 (b c 1877) fits with age on 1901
1939
573/2 5 Johnstone and Elderslie (Renfrew)
Annie
P.S. Well done Emma & thanks to Carole ;)
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KIRK JOHN & WILLIAMSON MARY 1899
621/ 39 Avondale (Lanark)
Does George's birth agree with the above as this marriage is what you need to move back another generation as it will give all 4 parents names with mothers maiden names.
Annie
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Yes Annie. I think those deaths make sense. Renfrew rather than Lanarkshire given that Mary married there
So we now have George (Ronald) born 1914 Lanarkshire
Parents John & Mary nee Williamson
Sister Mary Carmichael b 1900
Brothers Robert, John, and James born 1902, 1904 and 1910
So if Emma downloads the 1899 marriage cert another generation could unfold ;D
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Yes on his birth it states Mary Williamson 1899 29th December Avondale :)
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There is an 1891 entry for a John Kirk aged 15 shown as born Garscadden Dunbartonshire parents Robert & Eliza - see earlier 1901 entry Carscadden Renfrewshire
Let’s know when you download the 1899 marriage cert and if it’s the right parents I’ll post the full entry
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Carole,
I edited my post with the possible 1911...
John 35
Mary 33
Mary 11
Robert 9
John 7 (I'd missed him 1st time) ::)
James 1
Emma, what was the address for George's birth please?
Annie
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Have now added John to my earlier “list” ;D
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I'll blame my varifocals, hopless when scrolling when one is tired :P
We've done ok after all!
Annie
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There is an 1891 entry for a John Kirk aged 15 shown as born Garscadden Dunbartonshire parents Robert & Eliza - see earlier 1901 entry Carscadden Renfrewshire
Let’s know when you download the 1899 marriage cert and if it’s the right parents I’ll post the full entry
Births for siblings on the 1891 if the parents are correct from the marriage?
KIRK WILLIAM SMITH 1868
629/ 150 Carluke
KIRK DAVID SMITH 1878
500/ 262 New or East Kilpatrick
Possible for John?
KIRK JOHN 1876
500/ 151 New or East Kilpatrick
I wonder if this family had a tent :D They did some moving around for sure ;D
Annie