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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: John Falvey on Thursday 23 August 18 15:17 BST (UK)
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I'm puzzled by the official history of the Guinness Brewery and Paul Espinasse's role. It's said that Paul died after falling off his horse outside The Bull in Drogheda in 1750, but Paul would have been far too old to be riding a horse if he had arrived in Ireland in 1689 as some sources say.
The famous 1759 Guinness lease refers to property formerly held by Paul Espinasse and John Espinasse. They would appear to be father and son if the Betham extract at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99LW-XSH8?i=297&cat=224404 is the right one. This will for a Paul Espinasse, brewer, was made in 1739 and proved in 1740 and names a son John. Co-incidently there is a John Espinasse who dies in 1750 - https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/de0ffa0317187. He is buried on 10th July, eight days later Margaret Espinasse is appointed administrator of the estate of John Espinasse, brewer. Seven years later Patrick Doyle becomes administrator as executor of Margaret - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99LW-2FQP?i=79&cat=224404.
Is there a contemporary source for the Drogheda story? Or was it John who fell off the horse there?
There is a PS to this story, the will of 1739 refers to Paul's granddaughter Anne, who through her father Charles Ward was first cousin to the Mark Ransford who granted the 1759 lease.
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I'm puzzled by the official history of the Guinness Brewery and Paul Espinasse's role. It's said that Paul died after falling off his horse outside The Bull in Drogheda in 1750, but Paul would have been far too old to be riding a horse if he had arrived in Ireland in 1689 as some sources say.
The famous 1759 Guinness lease refers to property formerly held by Paul Espinasse and John Espinasse. They would appear to be father and son if the Betham extract at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99LW-XSH8?i=297&cat=224404 is the right one. This will for a Paul Espinasse, brewer, was made in 1739 and proved in 1740 and names a son John. Co-incidently there is a John Espinasse who dies in 1750 - https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/de0ffa0317187. He is buried on 10th July, eight days later Margaret Espinasse is appointed administrator of the estate of John Espinasse, brewer. Seven years later Patrick Doyle becomes administrator as executor of Margaret - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99LW-2FQP?i=79&cat=224404.
Is there a contemporary source for the Drogheda story? Or was it John who fell off the horse there?
There is a PS to this story, the will of 1739 refers to Paul's granddaughter Anne, who through her father Charles Ward was first cousin to the Mark Ransford who granted the 1759 lease.
Depends on how old he was when he arrived in Ireland in 1689... 61 years earlier!!
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Jean Paul Espinasse, who ran a brewery in Dublin, fell from his horse during a trip to Drogheda and died. The brewery was bought by a man called Arthur Guinness!
https://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/localnotes/book-about-towns-past-a-labour-of-love-for-ted-27161361.html
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That book is the only one that calls him "Jean Paul" and that's not the name on the lease!!
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R. Espinasse, Esq. This last seat was the country residence of the deans of Christ-Church, Dublin, and is part of the estate of Kill of the Grange of Clonkeen, but has been held by lease for above 120 years by the Espinasse family.
https://www.libraryireland.com/topog/K/Kill-Rathdown-Dublin.php
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He's a descendant of William Espinasse. The 1739 will calls him a "relation".
Kill Abbey was the subject of a long court case in the 1750s and 1760s.
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That book is the only one that calls him "Jean Paul" and that's not the name on the lease!!
No it's not
"I Never Knew That About the Irish" By Christopher Winn gives same names.
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Do any of them quote sources?
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What names are in
Journal Article
Some Residents of Monkstown in the Eighteenth Century
Francis Elrington Ball
The Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland
Fifth Series, Vol. 9, No. 3 (Sep. 30, 1899), pp. 233-243
Published by: Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland
??
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I can't comment on his age when he had accident but it depends on how old he was when he arrived in Ireland in 1689... 61 years earlier!!
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Who did they originally get the Land from? Year?
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It's all in https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5TBFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA12#v=onepage&q&f=false - 22 pages of it.
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Seems to only start 1754...
With regards to the 1728 Leases, was William his brother?
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I don't think he was a brother. The Paul whose will dates from 1739 refers to a William Espinasse as a "relation" which is unusual, but could be explained by William being married to Isabella Ward (in 1721) and Paul's daughter Susanne being married to Isabella's brother Charles Ward (in 1723). Both Ward's are referred to in this 1730 deed - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSN1-6QCQ-9?i=505&cat=185720
There is a deed from 1734 where both are described as of the "sd City Brewers" - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-L9QW-J?i=384&cat=185720 In this deed Paul "declares that the considn money paid by sd Paul Espinasse to sd Wm Lightburne was the proper money of the sd Wm Espinasse". However there is another deed out there that says they owned different breweries.
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Consolidated Index to the Records of the Genealogical Office
Dublin, Ireland
ESPINASSE MS 223-54
Betham Will Abstracts 5/27, 17/233, 20/373, 30/211 -
Lodge 6/197
_________________________
21 Pages for the MS... wow
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Grrrr... MS 32 pages! ;D
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Yep, I've read all those and am still looking for the answer. Throw in the Huguenot Parish Registers, plus various COI Registers, or even http://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/ee/espinasse1.php
The missing detail is the source of the Drogheda story. It's not mentioned in 1928 version of "Guide to St. James's Gate Brewery" https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cbi5AAAAIAAJ&q=drogheda#v=onepage&q=espinasse&f=false or the 1931 version https://books.google.co.uk/books?redir_esc=y&id=k7i5AAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=drogheda but is in 1939 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-7u5AAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=drogheda
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Well if he's not in the 32 page MS it's very difficult to say...
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Have you asked HUBERT MURPHY?
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The famous 1759 Guinness lease refers to property formerly held by Paul Espinasse and John Espinasse.
Have you the Link to the famous 1759 Guinness lease which I presume was registered?
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A transcription is at http://movetonanaimo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Lease-1759-Transcription.doc
The registered version is at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-SS24-P?i=298&cat=185720
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Didn't see a reference to ESPINASSE in it... so one would be inclined to think lease expired at his death.
Was there a previous lease registered to ESPINASSE?
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There were 3, including this one https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-935H-J?i=54&cat=185720
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Didn't see a reference to ESPINASSE in it... so one would be inclined to think lease expired at his death.
Was there a previous lease registered to ESPINASSE?
Difficult to read but the name Espinasse is there
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Ok. Was there a previous lease registered to ESPINASSE?
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There were 3, including this one https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-935H-J?i=54&cat=185720
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Thanks...will look at them some day
Strange he is not in the MS.
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...and here is Sir Mark Ransford's full will https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-M3RV-1?i=72&cat=185720. it doesn't mention who he left the brewery to but it may be that it is "the Estate he had by Aldm Gyles Mee go after the death of his son Mark" - as he had inherited the brewery from his father in law Gyles Mee in 1691.
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https://comeheretome.com/2012/11/12/a-former-lord-mayor-sir-mark-rainsford/
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Didn't know about the statue...
Not sure what to make of this deed https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-9432-F?i=174&cat=185720 It looks like Mark Ransford is leasing Sir Mark's house to William Espinasse, What I can't understand is the bit about it being "a security to Capt Paul Espinasse". Both William and Paul are brewers.
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJM-GQSR?i=572&cat=185720 explains a lot.
This 1717 deed says William is Paul's nephew and William is marrying Mary Gunning and I recognise quite a few of the other names (sad I know).
Now who fell off that horse?
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Have you asked HUBERT MURPHY?
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Who's Hubert Murphy?
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJM-GQSR?i=572&cat=185720 explains a lot.
This 1717 deed says William is Paul's nephew and William is marrying Mary Gunning and I recognise quite a few of the other names (sad I know).
Now who fell off that horse?
You will of course as it is all wheels within wheels!
I even recognize names on the Deeds, one of which was a previous Lord Mayor... ;D
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Who's Hubert Murphy?
A few seem to have Jean Paul.... the ODS
Georgian Society too!
Has one copied from the other or was there an Autopsy??
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Who's Hubert Murphy?
He wrote an article naming him as Jean Paul.
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I found his email address quickly enough, but this as you've pointed out this story has done the rounds and I doubt that a journalist would be the original source.
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I'm puzzled by the official history of the Guinness Brewery and Paul Espinasse's role.
Trouble is he had no role in it and was just an ordinary run of the mill Dublin brewer who died years before Guinness went near the place!!
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Arthur Guinness acquired what was then a small, disused and ill-equipped brewery at St James's Gate.
The lease, signed on 31 December 1759, was for a whopping 9,000 years at an annual rent of £45. The premises comprised of four acres with a copper, a kieve, a mill, two malthouses, stabling for twelve horses and a loft to hold 200 tons of hay.
On 1 December 1759, Arthur entered his signature, as a new brewer, in the Minute Book of the Dublin Brewers and Maltsters Corporation.
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It was John Espinasse, Paul's son, who died from being thrown from his horse on the road to Drogheda, it happened on Sunday July 5 1750, and he died either through fracturing his skull (General Advertiser, Dublin, Friday July 17 1750, p2) or dislocating his neck (Belfast Newsletter, Monday July 13, 1750, p2. His name is given as John, not Jean Paul. Paul Espinasse had died some 10 years earlier: his will was proved in 1740.
Pro tip: if you go hunting for this sort of stuff in pre-1830s publications, search substituting f for s in the middle of words, eg Efpinaffe, horfe: those long s's cause chaos with OCR
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Thanks Martyartie,
That's perfect. Next step is to work out what happened to John's children who were still minors when their mother Margaret died in 1757.
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All Espinasse did was rent a Brewery that made Beer and died 10 years before Guinness went near the small, disused and ill-equipped brewery at St James's Gate.....
Guinness then made Beer until he brought a Brewer from London to start brewing Guinness Porter rather than beer.
Other than being an old dead tenant, he had no role in Guinness Brewery!!
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Sorry Hallmark,
I didn't read the bit in the Rootschat Terms & Condtions that said all threads had to be approved by you. I will endeavour to ask better questions in future, that is of couse subject to you finding information that couldn't be found in a simple google search.
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It avoids others trying to find "the connection" between the Espinasse Family and Guinness family as there isn't any!!
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If John Espinasse hadn't fallen off his horse and died, it's probable Arthur Guinness wouldn't have been able to lease St James's Gate, as Espinasse would still have been in possession of the brewery, and therefore any Guinness brewery in Dublin would have been developed somewhere else. That's a clear connection between the two, and I'm puzzled why you keep saying there's "no connection".
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I've just found this thread. I'm a related Espinasse. It's fascinating to learn more about the brewery. Family legend always had it that we owned the site at the time Guinness bought it, but I think my mother found out the true story, back in the '80s-90s(?) and put us straight! I believe there's an Espinasse chair (and maybe a portrait?) in the current brewery, which I don't really see the relevance of if there's no real connection. Maybe we should ask for it back!
My mother and sister visited Dublin to try to understand the estate. I think there is still some property there, on 999-year leases for tuppence a year (maybe it was 9,000 years is that's the term of the brewery site?). I seem to recall that they were warned off – politics and fear of reprisals. They couldn't really find anyone to help them, and the enquiries they were able to make discovered the records are 'unavailable', so no one knows who holds them or who's been collecting the rent!
They did go and look at Kill of the Grange though. I understand that that's the name of an area, but there was a family house. Is that the one now listed as Fairholme? The boar in the mosaic floor would suggest that it is. The family crest is a boar with an arrow through its head.