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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: WillowG on Tuesday 28 August 18 20:55 BST (UK)
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After starting a thread for the will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset 1530 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=797967.0), and receiving so much kind help here, I have been trying to map out the different brances of the Aylmer family, as Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset, left a legacy to an Anne Aylmer. Aylmer was also the name of the famous tutor the Marquis' possibly even more famous granddaughter, Lady Jane Grey, the Nine Days' Queen.
In addition, a lady by the name of Frances Aylmer was in the household of Princess Mary Tudor together with the Marquis' daughter, Katherine Grey, Lady Maltravers. This Lady Katherine Grey was the aunt of Lady Jane Grey.
With the incredibly kind help and skills of the people here we have been able to get a closer look at the life of this gentlewoman here:
Will of Frances Aylmer 1540
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799215.0
And mapped out the family line of Sir Laurence Aylmer through the translation of his son Anthony's will of 1518 here:
Will of Anthony Aylmer 1518
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799361.0
This will is a little longer than the two above, but it can still not rival the eight (!) pages of the Marquis' :)
It is of a length of about a page.
The will can be found on Ancestry.
The testator is, according to Ancestry, from Norwich in Norfolk.
Norwich
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwich)
The physical proximity to our Aylmers, the relative rarity of the name, and the fact that we thanks to the kind translation of Anthony Aylmer's will now have enough clues about the elder generation to possibly be able to link the Aylmers of 1493 to the Aylmers of the 1520's, gives me hope that this will might contain clues that will help us to determine how some of these Aylmers were related to each other.
My hope is that this will give us enough information to piece together a possible family relationship between the Aylmers we already know of.
Thank you so much in advance.
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In dei Nome amen the iijd day of the moneth ^of July^ in the year of ou(r) Lord god y ^t^ cccclxxxxiijth
I Robert Aylemir citezin and alderman of Norwich in my good and hole mynde at Norwich make
my testament and Last Wyll in this Wyse first I comende my soule to allmighty god ou(r) Lady Seint
Mary moder of Christ J(e)hu seint andrew and all his seintes and my body to be buryed in the church of
seint Andrewe in Norwich by the funte in the same church, And to the high Aulter of the same church
in recompence for my tythes I bequeith xl s And to the mending of the same church I bequeith
x marke Item I bequeith to e..ch of the iiij orders of friers in Norwich xxvj s viij d to pray for my
soule Item to the amending of the collegiate church of ou(r) Lady in the feldes of Norwich to pray for
my soule xl s And to the amneding of the hospitall of saint Gyle in Norwich to pray for my soule
I think the Hospital was St Gyles.
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Thank you so, so, so much Goldie!!! :) :D :)
I love the civic mindedness of these early wills!
He is probably buried in this church, which is still standing:
St. Andrew's Church, Norwich
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Andrew%27s_Church,_Norwich
Wow! St. Giles's Hospital is still in operation! :) (perhaps thanks the donation from our guy? *g*)
The Great Hospital is a medieval hospital that has been serving the people of Norwich, Norfolk, England, since the 13th century. It is situated on a 7-acre (2.8 ha) site in a bend of the River Wensum to the north-east of Norwich Cathedral. Bishop Walter de Suffield founded St. Giles's Hospital, as the hospital was originally known, in 1249. What makes the hospital notable today is its continuous record of care, the range of existing medieval buildings on the hospital grounds, most of which are still in use, and the extensive archives that record the hospital's long history.
Great Hospital
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hospital
Thank you so much again! :) :D :)
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Snippet 3
others xl s Item I bequeith to the modre church of the holy trinitie in Norwich xxs to pray for my sowle
Item to ev(er)y Nine at Carrowe (?) viij d And to ev(er)y suster at Normans iij d It(e)m to *Jhe Ankerys in
Norwich xij d Item I will that ev(er)y poure pursones in the castell And in the guyld halle whan
myn executoure come there to visite them have ij d Item I will have a seculer p(rie)st to sing and
pray for my soule my frendes soules and all *x soules by the space of viij yere next after my
decese in the church of saint Andrewe beforesaid Item I will that Elisabeth my wif have all that
‘modre’ church - mother church?
* thought this was John, but not the right letter; could also be Aukerys
* possibly an abbreviation for Chistian?
Snippet 4
my place that I dwell in in the p(a)risshe of Saint Andrewe in Norwich with thappurtenances to have
and hold to hire, hire heires and assignes for evermore Item I bequeith to Elisabeth my wif all my
stuff of household with all my plate Item I bequeith unto the same Elisabeth my wif CCC m(ar)ke
in money to be paide to hire hire executours or certaigne attorneys in forme folowing that is to say,
in the yere next after my decese C marke And in the yere than next after C marke And in
the yere next after that C marke Item I will that ev(er)y lepere both man and woman beying And
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From here:
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa&cc=moa&view=text&rgn=main&idno=AJQ4429.0001.001
7.-1493. Robert Aylmer, Mayor in 1481 and 1492. This mark, with his initials, is in several of the South windows in the clerestory. His gravestone, dated 1493, lies under the font.
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Just a couple of additions to goldie's work:
Snippet 2 - third last line: ...Item I bequeith to ev(er)ich of the iiij... [= every]
Snippet 3:
...ev(er)y Nune at Carrowe...
...It(e)m to Iche Ankerys in... [Iche = each / Ankerys = anchorite?]
...ev(er)y poure prisoner in the castell...
...and all xpen soules...
xpen = christen in the same way as xpofer = christofer
The xp is from the Greek letters chi & rho, which stand for the christ part of the word.
ADDED:
Goldie is right about modre church.
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Some minor matters in Snippet 1:
...Lord god ml cccclxxxxiijth...
ml = millesimo = one thousand
His surname is spelt Aylemer. The upper part of the e is touching the r.
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Thanks HD.
Do you think the place the nuns are IS Carrowe? I wasn't sure.
I can see 'prisoner' now. The scribe must use at least 3 different forms of 'r' in this writing! Very confusing!
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I agree it is Carrowe.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/norf/vol2/pp351-354
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I can see 'prisoner' now. The scribe must use at least 3 different forms of 'r' in this writing!
Yes, the style used in ...poure prisoner... is very rare.
A late thought on the Ankerys: (perhaps) = Anchoress = A female anchorite
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Thank you so much, Goldie, Bookbox and HD!!! :) :D :)
Both for the transcription and the links! It really takes a village :) :) :)
It really is a window into a different world, isn't it?
I got claustrophobia just reading about the anchorites and anchoresses, lololol, HD! :) But super-fascinating! Elizabeth of York apparently had a few whom she regularly donated to!
From here:
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa&cc=moa&view=text&rgn=main&idno=AJQ4429.0001.001
7.-1493. Robert Aylmer, Mayor in 1481 and 1492. This mark, with his initials, is in several of the South windows in the clerestory. His gravestone, dated 1493, lies under the font.
That is so fascinating! Another mayor ... That is very interesting :) Thank you so much, Goldie!
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I agree it is Carrowe.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/norf/vol2/pp351-354
Thank you so much, Bookbox! :) :D :) i loved reading about this :)
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snippet 5
dwelling by and without the v yate of Norwich whan myne executours thydre come to visite
them have ij d Item I bequeith to Richard my sonne so that he be curtous gentyll and humble
to his modre my wif C marke to be paide to hym his executours or certaigne attorneys in forme
folowing that is to say in the yere next aftre my decese L mark And in the yere than folowing
other L mark in full payment of the said C marke, Item I bqueith to Thomas my sonne C
marke undre like condition as is afore rehersede of Richard his brother to be paid to the same Thomas
Snippet 6
whan he commeth to thage of xxj yere in forme folowing that is to say when he is of the said
age of xxj yere L mark And other L mark in the yere than next ensuyng And if the said Thomas
dey or he come to the said age Than I will that the said C mark bequithen to him be disposed by
myn executours for my soule and the soules aforesaid item I bequeith to Cealie my daughter C mark
to be paid to hire therof such tyme as she ys maried or such tyme as she cometh to thage of xxj
yere L mark And in the yere than next ensuyng aftre the said mariage or next aftre the said age
other L mark Item I will that Thomas my sonne have all my Landes and tenementes in Higham
There is a contraction mark over at least 2 of the words 'than' in clipping 6.
Which reads as though it is 'then' in context, but if it's a contraction............
Do you know what the whole word would be HD or Bookbox?
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There is a contraction mark over at least 2 of the words 'than' in clipping 6.
Which reads as though it is 'then' in context, but if it's a contraction............
Do you know what the whole word would be HD or Bookbox?
These are the kind of semi-spurious contraction marks sometimes seen in these documents, where the contraction isn't obvious or necessary.
I agree than is written and then is the meaning. I would transcribe as you have done.
The alternative is to force something like than(ne).
Note that in the first line of #5 he writes whan with a mark and in the first line of #6 the same word twice without the mark. All mean when.
Some small enhancements to goldie's text:
...withoute the v yat(es) of Norwich... [It's the -es brevigraph, therefore plural.]
Same line: ...come thydre... [Words reversed in the transcript.]
...curteis... [There's a line across the fifth letter.]
...dey or he come... [I agree with the transcript, but I'm sure or is to be read as ere = before]
...Cecile my dought(er)... [possibly Cecilie, but unlikely, comparing the final e to that in age in the line above.]
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Thanks HD.
I'd seen the whan/when ones too.
I'd wondered about the 'double n' as the contraction - as you often get in 'sonne', but as you say, seems a little contrived.
Quite odd.
Glad you made 'or' to be 'ere'. That makes better sense. I couldn't make sense of it in context - just transcribed what was there.
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Thank you so much, the both of of you!!! :) :D :)
Oh, things just got exciting here! For a while I was worried he was going to stop at the name of his wife, but instead another family line is materialising :)
This is very exciting! Thus far we have a Robert Aylmer (d.1493), his wife Elizabeth and their sons Richard and Thomas and their daughter Cecil(i?)e ...
Are we going to make an educated guess that the Richard Aylmer (d.1512) in the link Goldie posted yesterday could be the Richard mentioned in this will, our testator's son?
Richard Aylmer, Grocer, Mayor in 1511. He was buried at the East end of the nave in 1512. On a seal to a deed dated 1506.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa&cc=moa&view=text&rgn=main&idno=AJQ4429.0001.001
There is also a 1494. Richard Aylmer, Grocer. (?) mentioned in the same text.
The namesake of our testator's son and the possible father of our testator?
Still no Franceses, Annes, Johns or Edmunds :) That is interesting ... Very interesting indeed.
Thank you so much again!!! :) :) :)
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Snippet #7:
...beside Norwich to hold to hym his heires and his assignes for ev(er)more whan he co(m)eth to laufull
age under condition that ^he^ be curteis humble and diligent to my wif his modre And I require
Richard my sonne as sonne and heire to me to make a state of the same landes and tenementes
in higham in fee simple to myn executo(r)s or to such p(er)sonnes as they shall name whan so ev(er)
the said Richard by myn executours therto be requyrede so that myn executo(r)s may do fulfill therof
this my last will Item I will that Elisabeth my wif have all my landes and tenementes in...
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Snippet #8:
...helmyngton and other townes therto adioynyng with that appurtenannces to hold to the same
Elisabeth here heires and assignes for ev(er)more Item if the said Richard my sonne be Curteis humble
and diligent to my wif his modre as the sonne owith tobe to his modre Item I will than he have all
that my mes called the bell in the parissh of saint Petre of Mancroft in Norwich with all the
tenementes therto belonging to have and to hold to the foresaid Richard his heires and assignes for ev(er)
more Item I will that all myn other landes and tenementes in Norwich and in Northfolke be sold
by myn executo(r)s And the money therof co(m)myng disposed in paying of my dettes and in p(er)formance...
mes = mese
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Oh, thank you so much, HD!!! :) :D :) This was wonderful!
Does anybody have any idea where Helmyngton might be?
He is clearly fond of his wife, Elizabeth :) I wonder if the sons' behaviour is already giving him cause for concern? He adds no such stipulation for his daughter, Cecile.
Thank you so much again, HD! :) :) :) Wonderful work!
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(The probate is clearly blank? In case I have missed something obvious? Will at Ancestry - Last page (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311108-00434?pid=882594&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D5111%26h%3D882594%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DUSg329%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=USg329&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=40611_311108-00436)
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'Our' Elizabeth?
Short title: Knyvet v Aylmer.
Plaintiffs: Sir William Knyvet, knight.
Defendants: Elizabeth, late the wife of Robert Aylmer, and William Ferrour, his executors, and Thomas Cause and John Westgate, executors of John Wellys.
Subject: Detention of property of Robert Toppis.
Norfolk.
9 documents
Date: 1493-1500
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7460759
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A Richard Aylmer was one of the two Sheriffs of Norwich 1501. A Robert Aylmer was one of the two sheriffs 1471
from "A compleat history of the famous city of Norwich; from the earliest account, to the present year1728" - published 1728
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A Richard Aylmer was one of the two Sheriffs of Norwich 1501. A Robert Aylmer was one of the two sheriffs 1471
from "A compleat history of the famous city of Norwich; from the earliest account, to the present year1728" - published 1728
Oh, excellent! Thank you so much! :) :) :)
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Snippet #9:
...of this my testament and last will and in other dedys of mercy for my soule and the soules afore
said Item I bequeith to William Gylbert xl s Item I require all my feoffes of and in all my landes
and tenementes beforesaid to make astate therof to myn executo(r)s or to such p(er)sonnes as myn exe
cutours shall name or assigne according to the affecte of this my last will whan so ev(er) my said feoffes
by myn executours therto be requyred The Residue of all my goodes and Catalles with all the...
Does anyone know exactly what is meant when someone (often feoffees, as here) is required to make astate?
I have several similar requests in wills from the early decades of the C16th.
Internet search engines just return results for the noun state.
(Willow, note that this term is used in #7, except it is written: make a state of the same landes and tenementes)
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Snippet #10:
...dettes to me owing. I geve and co(m)myte to the good disposition of myn executo(r)s they to pay my
dettes to p(er)fo(r)me this my testament and last will and dispose in other dedys of pitie and m(er)cy
for my soule and the soules beforesaid to the most pleasure of god and profite to my soule of this
my testament myn executours the foresaid Elisabeth my wif Thomas [Beairfeld? / Beawfeld?] Thomas
Cans citezins and aldermen of Norwich and William fferro(r) the younger citezine of Norwich
scryvener I make and ordeigne by this p(re)sentes And I bequeith to ev(er)ich of them for theire Labou(r)
C s yevon undre seale day yere and place above writen
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https://archive.org/details/historicalcollec00stryuoft
Click on link. You can either turn pages to find page 126 or click on magnifying glass to right of book (search inside) and search for "richard aylmer" - page 126 has wife's given name.
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Robert Aylmer, of Norwich, alderman and grocer, occurs several times in the records of Common Pleas. For example, in 1480:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no871/aCP40no871fronts/IMG_0456.htm
Trinity term, 1480, third entry:
Norwich. Thomas Kyng, clerk, vicar of Scothowe, versus Philip Curson, of Norwich, draper; and Robert Aylmer, alderman of Norwich, grocer. Debt of 23 marks.
And an earlier Robert Aylmer, in 1422:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no647/aCP40no647fronts/IMG_0335.htm
Michaelmas term, 1422, sixth entry:
Suffolk. Thomas Robekyn versus Robert Aylmer, of Norwich, notary. Debt of 16 pounds.
The records that have been indexed can be searched here:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40_Indices.html
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Thank you so much, all of you!!! :) :D :) HD, this is wonderful work! And the extra information is really valuable!
I think we have between us almost certainly worked out a complete family tree :) :) :)
Robert Aylmer, of Norwich, Notary in 1422.
His son, Richard Aylmer, Grocer (d.1494).
His son, Robert Aylmer (d.1493), Sheriff of Norwich in 1471, Alderman of Norwich in 1480, Mayor in 1481 and 1492. Married to Elizabeth and had by her two sons, Richard and Thomas, and a daughter, Cecile. After his death Elizabeth was involved in a suit with Sir William Knyvett - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Knyvett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Knyvett)
His son, Richard Aylmer (d.1514), Grocer, one of the two Sheriffs of Norwich in 1501, Mayor in 1511. Married to Joan (still alive in 1514).
According to this book: https://archive.org/stream/miscellaneagenea4191bann#page/n49/search/Aylmer (https://archive.org/stream/miscellaneagenea4191bann#page/n49/search/Aylmer), the English and Irish Aylmers sprung from the same family and remained close. This ties in with John Strype's description of John Aylmer's coat of arms as 'argent, a cross sable, between four choughs of the same', which is the coat of arms of the Irish Aylmer family.
https://archive.org/stream/historicalcollec00stryuoft#page/2/search/crest
This same book also gives me the first attempt of a family tree of the olden Aylmers that I have seen:
Family Tree of Aylmers
https://archive.org/stream/miscellaneagenea4191bann#page/n55/search/Aylmer
In 1425, around the same time that we find a Richard Aylmer in Norwich, we find a Thomas Aylmer and Alice his wife in Essex:
http://esah1852.org.uk/images/pdf/ffines/F1400000.pdf
The start of these two branches of the family from the same family tree?
Thank you so much, everybody, again!!! :) :D :)
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"Does anyone know where Helmyngton might be?"
Proving somewhat elusive!
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/search?query=helmyngton
Only Nos. 2 and 3 can be viewed.
Checked out Helmingham (in case it might originally have been called Helmyngton) but has been known as Helminghham since at least the Domesday Book.
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There was a Helmington Hall, Hunwick, Durham
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Thos must be the same Thomas Aylmer in Essex and Alice, his wife, who was his administratrix in 1430.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no677/bCP40no677dorses/IMG_1570.htm
Easter term,1430, third entry:
Essex. Robert Huthom; Alice, his wife, administratrix of Thomas Aylmer, versus John Cokstone, of Canefeld, tanner; Robert Lamberd, of King's Hatfleld, butcher; Robert Broke, of Great Canefeld, tanner; John Jerdevyle, of Machyng, laborer. Debt.
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Yes, Helmyngton is proving very elusive indeed! :) :) :)
There was a Helmington Hall, Hunwick, Durham
There is also a Helmington Row in Durham.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmington_Row
Following the link you posted, I saw Helmyngton, co. Suffolk, manor, 68
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/search?query=helmyngton
There appears also to have been a Helmyngton of Helmington Church in Suffolk.
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924031319944/cu31924031319944_djvu.txt
Thos must be the same Thomas Aylmer in Essex and Alice, his wife, who was his administratrix in 1430.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no677/bCP40no677dorses/IMG_1570.htm
Easter term,1430, third entry:
Essex. Robert Huthom; Alice, his wife, administratrix of Thomas Aylmer, versus John Cokstone, of Canefeld, tanner; Robert Lamberd, of King's Hatfleld, butcher; Robert Broke, of Great Canefeld, tanner; John Jerdevyle, of Machyng, laborer. Debt.
I completely agree. Does this mean that Thomas Aylmer was dead by 1430? And that she had remarried Robert Huthom?
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Does this mean that Thomas Aylmer was dead by 1430? And that she had remarried Robert Huthom?
Yes to both questions.
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Oh, thank you so much! :) :) :)
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Found an earlier Richard Aylmer, mercer, in 1403 and 1417. The father of Robert Aylmer, of Norwich, Notary in 1422?
Probably the same as Richard Aylemer of London, citizen and mercer, in 1412
Appointment of attorney
Reference: FC 94/L1/2/3
Title: Appointment of attorney
Description: Richard Aylemer, mercer, William Ruston and Thomas Panter, citizens of London, appoint John Aylemer of Wilby attorney to negotiate with Richard Manshep of Worlingworth, and John his son and Geoffrey Esthawe of Wingfield
Date: 5 Nov. 1403
Held by: Suffolk Record Office, Ipswich Branch, not available at The National Archives
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/4daab212-fb37-4954-8129-3d6458d8145b
Title: Grant from Thomas Cotton and Thomas Panter, jnr., citizen of London, to Thomas Burgeys of Gretnerssh [Greatness] and Richard Marchall of Seal.
Description: Meadow called Childesmede at Childesbrigge in Seal abutting S. and W. on land of David Stidulf, N. on land of William Baker, E. on the King's highway; which meadow they held jointly with Robert Grafton, esq., Sir William Norhampton, clerk, and Richard Aylemer of London, citizen and mercer, by feoffment of Walter Wy of Kemsing and his son William Wy of London, citizen and mercer, by the name of all lands, tenements, rents and services which they (Walter and William) had in Seal and Kemsing.
Witnesses: William Fremelyn, Reginald Dyne, John Osbarn, John Fuller, Thomas Thebalde, John Melwer, William Othys.
Given at Seal.
Date: 26 Nov 1412
Held by: West Sussex Record Office, not available at The National Archives
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/3554d7c8-65df-435b-a9a1-75ecfd73bcd1
Conveyance
Reference: FC 94/L1/2/4
Title: Conveyance Description: Richard Aylemer, mercer, William Ruston, Thomas Panter, citisens of London, and John Aylemer of Wilbey, to Richard Manshep of Worlingworth, and John son of Geoffrey Esthawe of Wingfield; one acre of meadow called Clyntmeadow, with appurtenances in Worlingworth
Date: 4 Nov. 1417
Held by: Suffolk Record Office, Ipswich Branch, not available at The National Archives
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/b7d73570-9f59-4b2f-b882-7491e6823d65
Note of also the mention of John Aylmer of Wilby, attorney in the same documents in 1403 and 1417.
Could the Richard Aylmer, mercer, in 1403, be the Richard who is son of John Aylmer and Anne de Legh here?
https://archive.org/stream/miscellaneagenea4191bann#page/n55/search/Aylmer
John Aylmer of Wilby, attorney, could even be his father, the John who married Anne de Legh and fathered Philip, Walter and Roger and Richard Aylmer with her ...
(The Thomas Aylmer and Alice his wife in Essex 1425, Thomas dead and Alice remarried Huthom by 1430, could even be the Thomas Aylmer of Devonshire from that pedigree, the father of John and grandfather of Richard ...)
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Here are a some more Aylmers in Norfolk, in Common Pleas. Robert Aylmere win 1416 had property in Baconsthorp, about 20 miles north of Norwich. There was a Reginald Aylmer, of Baconsthorp in 1420. And there's a Walter Aylmere of Horsham, St Faith, a couple miles north of Norwich.
Easter term, 1416
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H5/CP40no621/bCP40no621dorses/IMG_1790.htm
d 1790, sixth entry:
Norf. Robert Aylmere versus John Wagestaf, of Baconnesthorp, yeoman. Trespass: breach of close belonging to Robert at Baconnesthorp.
Easter term, 1416
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H5/CP40no621/bCP40no621dorses/IMG_1401.htm
d 1401, fifth entry:
Norwich. Walter Aylmere, of Horsham St Faith, spicer; Robert Baroun, of Brokford, Suff, yeoman; Simon Clesse or Cleffe, of Bishops Lynne, dyer; John Bylman, of Wode Norton, yeoman, outlawed to answer Thomas Cok, of Norwich. Debt.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H5/CP40no636/aCP40no636fronts/IMG_0713.htm
Hilary term 1420, f 713, 2nd entry:
Norf. Robert Brougham, prior of Holy Trinity Priory, Norwich, versus Reginald Aylmer, of Baconsthorp, yeoman. Debt of 20 pounds.
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It appears that Helmington, Suffolk is Helmingham. The Anchoress could be Julian/Juliana of Norwich 1342-1416.
Just suggestions.
francoso
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It appears that Helmington, Suffolk is Helmingham. The Anchoress could be Julian/Juliana of Norwich 1342-1416.
Just suggestions.
francoso
Ooh, well spotted! My gut instinct says Suffolk too.
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Here are a some more Aylmers in Norfolk, in Common Pleas. Robert Aylmere win 1416 had property in Baconsthorp, about 20 miles north of Norwich. There was a Reginald Aylmer, of Baconsthorp in 1420. And there's a Walter Aylmere of Horsham, St Faith, a couple miles north of Norwich.
Easter term, 1416
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H5/CP40no621/bCP40no621dorses/IMG_1790.htm
d 1790, sixth entry:
Norf. Robert Aylmere versus John Wagestaf, of Baconnesthorp, yeoman. Trespass: breach of close belonging to Robert at Baconnesthorp.
Easter term, 1416
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H5/CP40no621/bCP40no621dorses/IMG_1401.htm
d 1401, fifth entry:
Norwich. Walter Aylmere, of Horsham St Faith, spicer; Robert Baroun, of Brokford, Suff, yeoman; Simon Clesse or Cleffe, of Bishops Lynne, dyer; John Bylman, of Wode Norton, yeoman, outlawed to answer Thomas Cok, of Norwich. Debt.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H5/CP40no636/aCP40no636fronts/IMG_0713.htm
Hilary term 1420, f 713, 2nd entry:
Norf. Robert Brougham, prior of Holy Trinity Priory, Norwich, versus Reginald Aylmer, of Baconsthorp, yeoman. Debt of 20 pounds.
That is the first mention of a Walter Aylmer. That is very, very interesting because it ties in with the pedigree quoted in Miscellanea Genealogica Et Heraldica.
1416, Norwich. Walter Aylmere, of Horsham St Faith, spicer.
Spicer. Some who purchases and sells spices?
Compare with Richard Aylmer, mercer, in 1403 and 1417, probably the same as Richard Aylemer of London, citizen and mercer, in 1412.
Brothers?
And our Robert Aylmer, Alderman of Norwich, Grocer (d.1493), and father Richard Aylmer, Grocer (d.1494), and his son Richard Aylmer, Grocer (d.1514).
Indenture - Agreement
Description:
1) John Fyncham the elder, gent. and John Fyncham the younger his son and heir
2) John Pagrave of Norwyche, Esq. and Henry Falyate of the same, merchant
Agreement re release made by John Fyncham the elder to Thomas Brewys, Knight, Hugh Fenne, William Tendale, Esq., Richard Holdich, Esq., John Sulyard, Robert Aylmer grocer and John Cook, draper of the manor of Grymston called Brokeles Halle, the advowson of the same with appurtenances and lands and tenements in Grymston, Congham, Rydon, Pawsey and adjoining towns
9 Edw IV
Date: 3 Nov 1469
Held by: Norfolk Record Office, not available at The National Archives
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/9917e2f7-efa7-492e-a2f7-dd39e8ca8c79
Short title: Howarde v Aylemer
Plaintiffs: Sir Thomas Howarde, knight, and John Felde.
Defendants: Robert Aylemer, grocer, of Norwich.
Subject: Deeds concerning messuage, land, etc in Rackheath (Much Rakkey and Little Rakkey.). Norfolk
Date: 1465-1471, or perhaps 1480-1483
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7444356
A family of grocers?
There is also Sir Laurence Aylmer, Merchant Taylor, from the other thread.
Reference: C 146/596
Description: Grant by Mark Walker, citizen and grocer of London, son of Walter Walker, late citizen and grocer of London, deceased, to William Bracebrigge, Richard Batte, Laurence Aylemer, drapers, and John Parker, scrivener, citizens of London, of a tenement called 'le Crowne' in Westchepe, in the parish of St. Mary of Colchirche, and a void plot of land adjacent; also of a tenement called 'le Ball' in the parish of St. Martin Pomers in Ironmongerlane, within the ward of Chepe: [Middx,] Endorsed: Memorandum of enrolment in the Hustings Court of pleas of land, London, Monday after St. Faith, 2 Henry VII.
Dated: London, 12 August, 1 Henry VII.
Date: [1485-1486]
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5885055
It is my belief that he descended from another one of the four brothers, Roger.
Reference: MC 610/4, 781 x 1
Title: Grant by John Neve to Robert Wyngffeld Knight, Thomas Brews Esq., William Gryis, Roger Aylemere and John Dory of his lands, rents etc. had by gift of William Deye and others together with William Gyle and others in vills of Mendham, Withersdale, Weybread and Fressingfield, 31st May 1439.
Date: 1439
Held by: Norfolk Record Office, not available at The National Archives
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/eadcb7ad-2853-4b3a-afd1-85bf971d7911
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Robert Aylmere win 1416 had property in Baconsthorp, about 20 miles north of Norwich. There was a Reginald Aylmer, of Baconsthorp in 1420.
One of the Roberts we have previously uncovered, I wonder, or a completely new branch?
Going back to what we know about the earliest Aylmers (or at least what people have written about them :) ):
THE AYLMER FAMILY BY HANS HENDRICK AYLMER, OF KERDIFFSTOWN
The Aylmers deduce their descent from Athelemar or Ailmer, Earl of Cornwall, who lived in the reiGn of Ethelred (979-1016).* Athelmar, descended from Ethelred the brother of Alfred the Great, founded the Benedictine Abbey of Eynsham in Oxfordshire before 1005. Nicholas Aylmer, patron of Eynsham, was living there some two centuries after ; and his descendants lived in Herefordshire and
Shropshire. In later times the Aylmers were found chiefly in Norfolk, Suffolk, and Leicester.
https://archive.org/stream/journalofcountyk01coun#page/n375/search/Cornwall
MISCELLANEA GENEALOGICA ET HERALDICA
[A]n Aylmer pedigree, in which the first Aylmer in it is described as " the Founder of Eynsham Alley." This man lived in the fourteenth century. He could not have been the founder, for, as I have shewn, this abbey was founded in the tenth century by the great Earl. I referred the matter to Mr. Freeman, the Anglo-Saxon historian, and he said the word "founder" was used in those days to describe the lineal successor of the founder, or what we would call the patron of the living, and Freeman allowed that a man so described must be the head of the family and the male representative of the founder.
https://archive.org/stream/miscellaneagenea4191bann#page/n53/search/Freeman
So we know that Nicholas Aylmer and Cecily Hoo lived in the 1300's. Their possible son Thomas Aylmer dead between 1425 and 1430.
I also found this site, History of Norfolk/Volume 4, https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Norfolk/Volume_4, which is like a virtual treasure trove of Aylmers:
1492, Rog. Aylmer, Esq. he gave 2l. 6s. 8d. to mend their books and vestments, to each of the four friars that carried him into the church, 20d. For a solemn mass yearly in the church for four years, 8l. Friar John Fisher to be his priest, and go to the church of Rome in pilgrimage, and sing mass for his soul at Scala Celi there, and to have 10 marks when he goes out, and 40s. when he comes home.
In 1503, Joan, widow of Will. Aylmer, buried by Ralf Moor, her first husband, in this porch, and gave 5 marks towards painting the rood-loft.
The following inscriptions are in the nave; and first of those on brass plates, beginning at the most eastern part, just by the step out of the chancel, lies a large stone, having the effigies of a mayor in his robes, between his two wives; by the first wife are the effigies of her children, two boys and two girls; and by the second four girls; it being placed here in memory of Richard Aylmer, mayor in 1511, son of Robert Aylmer, who was mayor in 1481, and 1492, and Joan his first wife; he died in 1512. This inscription is printed in Weever's Funeral Monuments, fo. 802, as imperfect, though it is legible at this day:
Aylmer Ricardus Procerum de stipite natus, Is quondam Maior Urbis, iacet hic tumulatus, Hatis cum prima atque suis Consorte Johanna, Moribus ornatus, Bonus omnibus atque benignus, Anno Milleno, D, bind, cum duodeno, Jous semtembris trino, migrabit ob orbe. O bone Christe Thesu, fons bite, spes, Medicina, Votis inclina, te quesumus aure Benigna, Ut sibi sit Requies, bibat terum sine fine.
Hic iacet Robertus Osburn quondam Cibis et nicecomes Ci bitat' istius, obiit rrro die Mens' Marcii Ao Millimo' cccco nona gesimo quinto, cuius anime propicietur Deus Amen.
On a north isle window,
Orate pro bono statu Chome Thome Thirsby, ct Cliz. Ur. et pro aiab: Johis: et Rob. Aylmer quondam maiorum Cibitatis Normici.
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1518, Eliz. Thursby, widow, some time wife of Rob. Aylmer, gave 5 marks to repair the church, a vestment of 20s. and her next best chalice.
1500, Tho. Aylmer, grocer, in the church by his kindred.
1518, Eliz. Thursby, widow, buried in the church by alderman Rob. Aylmere, her late husband, and gave 10 marks towards finishing the church, and her best gilt chalice.
The font is placed on a stone that hath lost four shields, two effigies, and an inscription, but thus much of the circumscription remains.
Prey for the Soule of Robert Aylmer Citezeyn and Alderman of the Moneth of July in the Yer of our Lord God mocccco lxxxxiijo. on whose Soule God
Near it lies a stone with an effigies and this,
Orate pro anima Elizabethe filie Roberti Aylmer nuper Civis et Aldermanni Norvici que obiit xvo die Sept. Ao Dni. mocccco lxxxxiijo. cuius anime propicietur deus.
1459, Alice Aylmer, wife of John Penning, alderman, was buried in the church
Rectors
1308, Master Eustace de Kimberle purchased the house and land joining to the north-west part of the churchyard, with the advowson of the church, of Rob. de Gotherston and Cecily his wife, son and heir of Sir Jeffery de Gotherston, Knt. and settled them for a parsonagehouse and glebe for ever, but conveyed the advowson to Aylmer de Sygate of Erpingham, the founder of the family of the Aylmers in Norfolk.
1309, Eustace resigned to Will. Stone of Aylsham, priest.
1328, Will. son of John de Berton.
1333, Will. Stone again.
1335, Adam Umfrey of Gillingham; all which were presented by John son of Aylmer de Sygate of Erpingham; whose son, John Aylmer of Erpingham, presented Ralf Cat of Berningham, in 1345.
1351, John Sparhauk by lapse. In
1355, Cat took it again, on his former patron's presentation, and in 1359, changed it for Saxthorp free-chapel with Simon Maschal, who in 1361, changed it for Oxwick, with John Mathew. In
1367, Walter Gudeman of Burgate was presented by Agnes Horn, to whom John Aylmer sold the advowson; he died and was buried in the chancel, in 1387.
Vicars
PRESENTED BY THE PRIOR AND CONVENT, AND DEAN AND CHAPTER.
1426, Rob. Aylmer.
I can't read the Latin though.
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I can't read the Latin though.
Unfortunately, the Latin is rife with mistranscription (b for v; m, n, u and w all confused, etc.), which has necessitated some guesswork:
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Aylmer Ricardus Procerum de stipite natus, Is quondam Maior Urbis, iacet hic tumulatus, Hatis cum prima atque suis Consorte Johanna, Moribus ornatus, Bonus omnibus atque benignus, Anno Milleno, D, bind, cum duodeno, Jous semtembris trino, migrabit ob orbe. O bone Christe Thesu, fons bite, spes, Medicina, Votis inclina, te quesumus aure Benigna, Ut sibi sit Requies, bibat terum sine fine.
Richard Aylmer, born of noble stock, a former Mayor of the city, lies buried here (...) with his first wife Joan; he was adorned with qualities, and was good and kind to all; he departed this realm on the third(?) day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand five hundred and twelve; O good Christ Jesu, source of life, hope and remedy, we beseech you hear our prayers with a kindly ear, so that he may be at rest and may enjoy everlasting life.
Hic iacet Robertus Osburn quondam Cibis et nicecomes Ci bitat' istius, obiit rrro die Mens' Marcii Ao Millimo' cccco nona gesimo quinto, cuius anime propicietur Deus Amen.
Here lies Robert Osburn, once a citizen and sheriff of this city, who died the third(?) day of the month of March in the year One thousand four hundred and ninety five, on whose soul may God have mercy. Amen.
Orate pro bono statu Chome Thome Thirsby, ct Cliz. Ur. et pro aiab: Johis: et Rob. Aylmer quondam maiorum Cibitatis Normici.
Pray for the health of the soul of Thomas Thirsby and of Elizabeth his wife, and for the souls of John and Robert Aylmer, once Mayors of the City of Norwich.
Orate pro anima Elizabethe filie Roberti Aylmer nuper Civis et Aldermanni Norvici que obiit xvo die Sept. Ao Dni. mocccco lxxxxiijo. cuius anime propicietur deus.
Pray for the soul of Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Aylmer lately a citizen and alderman of Norwich, who died on the 15th day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety three, on whose soul may God have mercy.
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Oh, thank you so much, Bookbox!!! :) :D :) This is brilliant! What would we do without you? :) You're a star!
I can't read the Latin though.
Unfortunately, the Latin is rife with mistranscription (b for v; m, n, u and w all confused, etc.), which has necessitated some guesswork
Especially when the Latin was mangled, to boot! So impressive.
There we have the exact day of death of Richard Aylmer, 3rd of September 1512, excellent :)
And he is buried with his first wife Joan.
Pray for the health of the soul of Thomas Thirsby and of Elizabeth his wife, and for the souls of John and Robert Aylmer, once Mayors of the City of Norwich.
This has to be the same Thomas Thursby that we encountered here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799215.9
So he ended up married to this Elizabeth Aylmer.
It's a small world after all :)
Kirkpatrick saw the merchant’s mark of Robert Aylmer, mayor in 1481 and 1492, in each of the south clerestory windows. Aylmer was a grocer, councillor for Middle Wymer ward in which the church stands, and later alderman for East Wymer, sheriff and mayor in 1481 and 1492; he died in 1493. His widow Elizabeth left 10 marks to finishing the church and her best gilt chalice in 1518. His mark is still at the top of some of the south clerestory windows.
http://www.cvma.ac.uk/publications/digital/norfolk/sites/norwichstandrew/history.html
In a record on Ancestry (https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1610&h=938005&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=USg345&_phstart=successSource) concerning this will which I find referenced everywhere (the actual will is nowhere to be found of course ::)) I find the following sentence: 1518 Thursby, Elizabeth, Norwich, wid., "Robert Aylmer late my husbond" 97 to 100 Gylys
Could Gylys (Gyles, Gillies, Giles?) be Elizabeth's maiden name? (See also the court case involving Roger Aylmer and William Gyle in 1439. Could Gyle be Elizabeth's maiden name?)
Thomas Thursby was Mayor three times, in 1477, 1482, and 1502. Thoresby College, King's Lynn, was built in 1500 or about 1510, a testamentary foundation of Thomas Thoresby, sometime mayor and member of a leading burgess family.
https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/genealogie-richard-remme/I537438.php
I cannot find a John Aylmer on either the list of former mayors of Norwich in The History of the City and County of Norwich: From the Earliest Accounts to the Present Time (https://books.google.no/books?id=kntbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA358&lpg=PA358&dq=mayors+of+Norwich+Robert+Aylmer+Richard+Aylmer&source=bl&ots=HrjexwHLfx&sig=gy0lg8cHSGHXVfnmQzalx1f7sWo&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8n8_P3qTdAhVLh6YKHfREBtIQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=mayors%20of%20Norwich%20Robert%20Aylmer%20Richard%20Aylmer&f=false) or on Wikipedia's list of former mayors of Norwich.
List of mayors of Norwich
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Norwich
I do however find a John Aylmer in what could be the right period in a list of freemen of Norwich:
John Aylemer Leche 16,17,&18H.VI
16 Henry VI 1 Sept 1437
17 Henry VI 1 Sept 1438
18 Henry VI 1 Sept 1439
19 Henry VI 1 Sept 1440
Calendar of the Freemen of Norwich from 1317 to 1603 (Edward II to Elizabeth inclusive) by John L'Estrange (1888)
https://archive.org/stream/freemennorwich1317#page/n25/search/Aylemer
(More Lestranges :) )
Could this be an ancestor Robert? Or would the epitaph have been written differently then?
I have no idea what his occupation, Leche, could mean, though. I assume he had not taken up a new, exciting career as milk, or as an antelope from Tswana (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/leche) :)
He would have been supremely unlikely to have been elected mayor if he had believed himself to be either of those things ;D
Pray for the soul of Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Aylmer lately a citizen and alderman of Norwich, who died on the 15th day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety three, on whose soul may God have mercy.
Is it Elizabeth, the daughter, or Robert Aylmer, who died on the 15th day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety three?
Thank you so much again, Bookbox, this was wonderful! :) :) :)
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There we have the exact day of death of Richard Aylmer, 3rd of September 1512
Please do be careful when drawing conclusions. In my reply #41 above, I did say there was some guesswork, and you will see that I have queried this particular date. That is because the so-called ‘Latin’ provided -- Jous semtembris trino – has been mistranscribed and is meaningless in this form. While the year 1512 is clearly correct, and supported elsewhere, the exact date 3 September is a guess at what the original might have been. Also, the word Jous might possibly be a mistranscription of Jovis (= Thursday), and that’s yet another guess. Caution is advised.
Is it Elizabeth, the daughter, or Robert Aylmer, who died on the 15th day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety three?
As the memorial is for Elizabeth, I imagine the date of death will be hers, not her father’s.
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In a record on Ancestry (https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1610&h=938005&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=USg345&_phstart=successSource) concerning this will which I find referenced everywhere (the actual will is nowhere to be found of course ::)) I find the following sentence: 1518 Thursby, Elizabeth, Norwich, wid., "Robert Aylmer late my husbond" 97 to 100 Gylys
Could Gylys (Gyles, Gillies, Giles?) be Elizabeth's maiden name? (See also the court case involving Roger Aylmer and William Gyle in 1439. Could Gyle be Elizabeth's maiden name?)
No, Gylys is the name given to the Register that holds that particular will. (Registers of wills are often designated by the surname of the first testator whose will is recorded in them.)
When you say the will is nowhere to be found, perhaps you mean it is not online? While Ancestry's reference is not particularly helpful, it does at least give you the probate court, the Consistory Court of Norwich, which in turn points to the Norfolk Record Office, where Elizabeth Thursby's will is held, as catalogued here ...
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=41&dsqSearch=%28%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29AND%28Date%3D%271518%27%29%29
You could contact NRO and ask for a copy.
ADDED - Elizabeth Thursby's will is online after all ...
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSND-39XD-9?i=122&cat=278818
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There we have the exact day of death of Richard Aylmer, 3rd of September 1512
Please do be careful when drawing conclusions. In my reply #41 above, I did say there was some guesswork, and you will see that I have queried this particular date. That is because the so-called ‘Latin’ provided -- Jous semtembris trino – has been mistranscribed and is meaningless in this form. While the year 1512 is clearly correct, and supported elsewhere, the exact date 3 September is a guess at what the original might have been. Also, the word Jous might possibly be a mistranscription of Jovis (= Thursday), and that’s yet another guess. Caution is advised.
You are of course entirely correct. It is still good to have the year confirmed as 1512.
Is it Elizabeth, the daughter, or Robert Aylmer, who died on the 15th day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety three?
As the memorial is for Elizabeth, I imagine the date of death will be hers, not her father’s.
Normally I would not have been at all in doubt either, it's just that in this case it seemed to coincide so perfectly with this:
In dei Nome amen the iijd day of the moneth ^of July^ in the year of ou(r) Lord god y ^t^ cccclxxxxiijth I Robert Aylemir citezin and alderman of Norwich in my good and hole mynde at Norwich make my testament and Last Wyll
(Written on the third of July 1493 if I am not mistaken. And this Robert Aylmer (whom I assumed to be her father) does not mention a daughter Elizabeth in his will. He does however have a wife named Elizabeth, increasing the likelihood for a daughter named Elizabeth. So in a lot of ways it would make more sense if this was Robert Aylmer's date of death ... But then life and history does not always make sense. And I thought the phrasing rather ambigious, so I wanted to hear other people's opinions.)
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In a record on Ancestry (https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1610&h=938005&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=USg345&_phstart=successSource) concerning this will which I find referenced everywhere (the actual will is nowhere to be found of course ::)) I find the following sentence: 1518 Thursby, Elizabeth, Norwich, wid., "Robert Aylmer late my husbond" 97 to 100 Gylys
Could Gylys (Gyles, Gillies, Giles?) be Elizabeth's maiden name? (See also the court case involving Roger Aylmer and William Gyle in 1439. Could Gyle be Elizabeth's maiden name?)
No, Gylys is the name given to the Register that holds that particular will. (Registers of wills are often designated by the surname of the first testator whose will is recorded in them.)
This is actually brand new information. I never knew this! Thank you.
When you say the will is nowhere to be found, perhaps you mean it is not online? While Ancestry's reference is not particularly helpful, it does at least give you the probate court, the Consistory Court of Norwich, which in turn points to the Norfolk Record Office, where Elizabeth Thursby's will is held, as catalogued here ...
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=41&dsqSearch=%28%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29AND%28Date%3D%271518%27%29%29
You could contact NRO and ask for a copy.
I had no idea this was a possibility :)
ADDED - Elizabeth Thursby's will is online after all ...
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSND-39XD-9?i=122&cat=278818
Oh, this is great, thank you so much! Right off to look at it now :)
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Is there a link for the search function to those wills?
There are several Aylmer wills that I have seen referenced, but have been unable to find ...
I was beginning to think the Olden Historians must have had a magic box with them in their attic or something ... :)
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Is it Elizabeth, the daughter, or Robert Aylmer, who died on the 15th day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety three?
As the memorial is for Elizabeth, I imagine the date of death will be hers, not her father’s.
Normally I would not have been at all in doubt either, it's just that in this case it seemed to coincide so perfectly with this:
In dei Nome amen the iijd day of the moneth ^of July^ in the year of ou(r) Lord god y ^t^ cccclxxxxiijth I Robert Aylemir citezin and alderman of Norwich in my good and hole mynde at Norwich make my testament and Last Wyll
(Written on the third of July 1493 if I am not mistaken. And this Robert Aylmer (whom I assumed to be her father) does not mention a daughter Elizabeth in his will. He does however have a wife named Elizabeth, increasing the likelihood for a daughter named Elizabeth. So in a lot of ways it would make more sense if this was Robert Aylmer's date of death ... But then life and history does not always make sense. And I thought the phrasing rather ambigious, so I wanted to hear other people's opinions.)
According to TNA, the probate of Robert's will was dated 2 August 1493, so he cannot have died on 15 September.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D980772
I appreciate the probate details have not been entered in the register copy of the will, so this date presumably comes from another source-record held at TNA (e.g. the original will, act book, etc.).
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Is it Elizabeth, the daughter, or Robert Aylmer, who died on the 15th day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety three?
As the memorial is for Elizabeth, I imagine the date of death will be hers, not her father’s.
Normally I would not have been at all in doubt either, it's just that in this case it seemed to coincide so perfectly with this:
In dei Nome amen the iijd day of the moneth ^of July^ in the year of ou(r) Lord god y ^t^ cccclxxxxiijth I Robert Aylemir citezin and alderman of Norwich in my good and hole mynde at Norwich make my testament and Last Wyll
(Written on the third of July 1493 if I am not mistaken. And this Robert Aylmer (whom I assumed to be her father) does not mention a daughter Elizabeth in his will. He does however have a wife named Elizabeth, increasing the likelihood for a daughter named Elizabeth. So in a lot of ways it would make more sense if this was Robert Aylmer's date of death ... But then life and history does not always make sense. And I thought the phrasing rather ambigious, so I wanted to hear other people's opinions.)
According to TNA, the probate of Robert's will was dated 2 August 1493, so he cannot have died on 15 September.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D980772
I appreciate the probate details have not been entered in the register copy of the will, so this date presumably comes from another source-record held at TNA (e.g. the original will, act book, etc.).
Excellent. Thank you. So weird that he doesn’t mention her, though. That is something new with these wills (both the Aylmers and the Greys, actually). The ones I have looked on before usually mentions everybody and their mother-in-law and every second cousin they have. Everybody has been so conscientiously listed :)
Thank you so much again. Love that we found definite proof.
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Is there a link for the search function to those wills?
There are several Aylmer wills that I have seen referenced, but have been unable to find ...
The Norwich wills are not indexed on FamilySearch, but the published "Index to Wills, Consistory Court of Norwich, 1370-1550" has been digitised by Ancestry and can be searched here ...
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1610
Or you can search the NRO catalogue here ...
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/public/searches/nroprobate.htm
(Make a note of the folio numbers for whichever will is of interest.)
The FamilySearch wiki then helps you convert the NRO catalogue numbers to FHS film numbers ...
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Court_of_the_Bishop_(Episcopal_Consistory)_of_Norwich#Records
Enter the film number in the FamilySearch catalogue ...
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/search
Scroll down the results to the relevant film number, click the camera, and browse to the folio numbers given in whichever index you used (Ancestry or the NRO catalogue).
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Oh, this is great! Thank you! :)
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FWIW
Snippet #8:
...helmyngton and other townes therto adioynyng with that appurtenannces to hold to the same
Simon's Suffolk Churches http://www.suffolkchurches.co.uk/helmingham.htm
"St Mary is that rare thing in Suffolk, an estate church. At the west end of the graveyard is a large ornamental lake; a herd of deer graze among the trees beside it, and beyond that is the splendid pile of Helmingham Hall, home of the Tollemache family for generations."
"They were living here in the 15th century, and it was John Tollemache who signed the contract for the tower in 1488 - it survives in the Bodleian Library. The Tollemache arms and Marian symbols decorate it, and along the bottom is the outrageously Catholic inscription Scandit Ethera Virgo Puerpera Virgula Jesse ("The Virgin Mary, branch of Jesse's stem, is assumed into Heaven")."
This is the same inscription appearing in https://archive.org/stream/cu31924031319944#page/n68
House Mottoes and Inscriptions p.45.
Regards
francoso
-
FWIW
Snippet #8:
...helmyngton and other townes therto adioynyng with that appurtenannces to hold to the same
Simon's Suffolk Churches http://www.suffolkchurches.co.uk/helmingham.htm
"St Mary is that rare thing in Suffolk, an estate church. At the west end of the graveyard is a large ornamental lake; a herd of deer graze among the trees beside it, and beyond that is the splendid pile of Helmingham Hall, home of the Tollemache family for generations."
"They were living here in the 15th century, and it was John Tollemache who signed the contract for the tower in 1488 - it survives in the Bodleian Library. The Tollemache arms and Marian symbols decorate it, and along the bottom is the outrageously Catholic inscription Scandit Ethera Virgo Puerpera Virgula Jesse ("The Virgin Mary, branch of Jesse's stem, is assumed into Heaven")."
This is the same inscription appearing in https://archive.org/stream/cu31924031319944#page/n68
House Mottoes and Inscriptions p.45.
Regards
francoso
Oh, this is wonderful!!! :) :D :) Well done! Then we were right about Suffolk!!! :)
I know I have come across the Tollemaches before in some capacity. This really is very exciting. There is something deeply satisfying about charting waters that so many have tried and failed before, and succeeding! :)
As a group, I must say that we are really, really good :) :D :)