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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: jma09 on Thursday 30 August 18 09:31 BST (UK)
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I am looking for a birth record for Hellen GRANT born 14 August 1866 in Kiama. Her father was Abraham GRANT and her mother was Ellen (noSurname)
Hellen and her father moved up to Mudgee and then Cobborah, NSW in 1867. I don't know where Ellen went. (maybe she died in childbirth?)
I have checked the NSW BMDs and the Kiama independent BMDs but no luck.
Can anyone help please? I don't really know where to look next. Cheers J
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"........Hellen GRANT born 14 August 1866 in Kiama. "
What is your source for this information?
"..Hellen and her father moved up to Mudgee and then Cobborah, NSW in 1867."
How do you see them at Mudgee and Cobborah?
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Hi there,
Did Hellen marry in NSW? Is that her marrying in the Dubbo district in 1893, and if so, do you have that m.c. and .... does it have some blanks on it? Until around 1895 there was a long running (4 decades) dispute between the Churches and the Civil Administration of the Registrar General re BDMs... Most of the rural registrations for marriage were only summary info sent through to Sydney. So lots of information was on the Church registers but not sent to Sydney Reg Gen. :)
IF that's likely, for Hellen's marriage registration to John SUTTON ... then perhaps you could spare a moment to go through the following thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0 to help find that elusive info... which should include the maiden name of Hellen's mum... :)
NSW BDM #3230 of 1893, deduced date from online index 4 October 1893
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
JM
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You are researching the origins of this Hellen? And you have the death certificate?
Do you have the marriage certificate, 1893?. Can you list the information on it please.
BDM NSW marriage
3230/1893 GRANT Hellen m. SUTTON John T @ Dubbo
death
1745 / 1937 SUTTON Hellen Elizabeth parents Abram / Mary @ Dubb0
The Dubbo Liberal and Macquarie Advocate 9 Jan 1937 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131588552?
....obituary for Ellen Elizabeth SUTTON.......aged 71 years.....wife of John SUTTON.......survived by a brother Mr O KNIGHT....
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Ok
This my gggrandmother. She was bought up in cobborah/dubbo in the family of john knipe and mary bramhall.
I have the details for her marriage to john T Sutton from the SAG parish record presb. Church dubbo. Placeofbirth = Kiama father abraham GRANT mother Ellen.
Her death in 1937 lists her father as Abraham but her mother as Mary.
Hellen’s brother Oscar Abram Knight (from the dubbo liberal) is a misspelt Knipe, as Oscar is the son of John/mary.
Abraham is on the 1869/70 electoral roll for Cobborah.
That’s about all I know, which is mostly after her marriage. But who is abraham/ellen?
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You have said that Hellen and her father moved up to Mudgee and then Cobborah, NSW in 1867.
Where are you seeing Hellen's father with her, and in 1867?
Can you please list all the information on the marriage certificate. It should have occupation, witnesses, father's occupation, ....for Hellen and husband John T SUTTON. Can you give all the information please.
When did Hellen start to live with the KNIPE family?
Where did you find the birth date...14 Aug 1866?
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http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=1&cid=160
1872 Grevilles PO Directory ... Abraham was not listed in that for Cobbara ... but there's a search engine option that you may find useful.
JM
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The full marriage register is attached. Hellen's birthday was in the family bible and it aligns with her age at marriage.
I also have looked at the gazettes and there is some unclaimed mail for Abraham GRANT at Mudgee for 1867 and 1873/74.
Abraham is not on the 1872 Grevilles but he is on the (supplementary) Bogan electoral roll for 1869-70, residing at Cobbera, Talbragar River. John Knipe is in the 1872 Grevilles also at Cobbera, Talbragar River.
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What is the earliest evidence you have of Hellen GRANT, before her name on the marriage certificate?
How and where do you see her with her father?
How and where do you see Hellen GRANT with the KNIPE family?
Can you please scan, and place here, the whole page in the bible which has the birth reference.
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What is the earliest evidence you have of Hellen GRANT, before her name on the marriage certificate?
I don't actually have anything except the bible entry - which is just "Gran 14 Aug" and then someone has added 1866 next to it.
How and where do you see her with her father?
Never. I can see where Abraham is and I can see where John Knipe is. Hellen was bought up by the Knipes (Family 'myth').
How and where do you see Hellen GRANT with the KNIPE family? I have a photo of Mary & Hellen taken in 1904. There is a bit more info on Oscar from a newspaper article but nothing on Hellen. My grandmother thought she was a KNIPE.
Can you please scan, and place here, the whole page in the bible which has the birth reference.
The entry is a page by itself, as above. The rest of the entries are all post Hellen's marriage.
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We really need to determine the status of the information you are giving a forum to work with.
........ "Gran 14 Aug" and then someone has added 1866 next to it...........
The fact that 1866 fits with her age at marriage might be the reason that 1866 was added on the bible..........and added many years later by a grandchild.
...........Hellen was bought up by the Knipes (Family 'myth').....................
This is useful to know.......
...........I have a photo of Mary & Hellen taken in 1904.............
How do you know the details of the photo ie names and date? Anyone else in the photo? can we see the photo please -back and front.
......The entry is a page by itself, as above. The rest of the entries are all post Hellen's marriage....
Where you have family information in the bible, can you scan these pages for us to see. Presentation of information is useful.
....My grandmother thought she was a KNIPE.......
Where do you see Hellen thinking that she was a KNIPE? You mean that Hellen told....who?....that she was a KNIPE....and she married as GRANT?
What do you know about the KNIPE family?
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This is the only birth on NSWBDM with father Abraham and Cooma could easily have been misheard as Kiama.
6534/1860 GRANT ELLEN parents ABRAHAM and BETSY COOMA
A death in Forbes, maybe the family were on the way from Cooma to Dubbo:
4546/1862 GRANT BETSY mother ELIZABETH at FORBES
Jamjar
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Thanks everyone .. loving the help and the testing of my assumptions
Yes, I have seen the Cooma entry (attached) but had discarded it as being too early 1860 - 1937 would have made Hellen 77(71) when she died and 33(26) when she got married. Is this assumption too constricting?
I really don't have much more information than I have put in this chat. The Knipes lived at Cobborah until the mid 1870s and then moved to Dubbo. John died in 1884 and Mary was in Dubbo until 1913 and she died in 1917 in Sydney (with Oscar).
Hellen never thought she was a KNIPE - always a GRANT. But the family, 2 generations on, thought there was a link between the KNIPES and Hellen and Oscar Knipe was always treated as Hellen's brother.
I was hoping for some left field sources or ideas I could look at as I seem to have exhausted the normal ones - eg are there any adoption sources for Country NSW in the late 1860s.
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"..Oscar Knipe was always treated as Hellen's brother."
Do you mean "treated" by later researchers, and based on the reference to O KNIGHT in the obit, 1937, for Hellen SUTTON?.
I would keep an open mind about Hellen being 26 years old at marriage, 1892. I think Hellen is possibly older. Harmless human vanity often caused men and women to fudge their ages.
NSW BDM
marriage
2177/1857 KNIPE John m. BRAMHALL Mary Ann @ Mudgee
birth
13641 / 1872 BRAMHALL Oscar Abraham parents - / May Ann @ Mudgee
13641 / 1872 BRAMHALL Oscar A parents - / Mary A @ Gulgong
death
13044 / 1946 KNIPE Oscar Abram parents John / Mary Ann @ Redfern
Do you have birth certificates for daughters Eileen b. 1894 and Edna b. 1898.
Can you p[lease consider my questions about the photo and the written entries in the bible.
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Trove, 20 June 1861:
JERSEY.— If this should meet the eye of Abraham Grant, or Nicolas Francis Lempriere, late of Jersey, they will please send their address to N. De La Cour, 287 Spencer street, friends at home being very anxious to hear from, them.
Finding his death may be useful. I can’t find him.
Jamjar
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BDM VIC birth
1859 / 10172 GRANT Abraham Phillip parents Abraham / Elizabeth (Maguire)
b. Indigo
I cannot see a marriage in VIC
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An Abraham Grant getting a medal in 1897, Newcastle, first column.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article231816989
Jamjar
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Unassisted passengers VIC
"Exact" Nov 1852 GRANT Abraham origin JER age 37
numerous French family names on this ship - but not Lempriere
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Does the wonderful brains trust think that Ellen from Cooma is my Hellen?
To summarise the differences
1. Age Ellen is 6 years older than Hellen
2. Cooma vs Kiama
3. Mother is Ellen on marriage record, but Cooma has Betsy as mother.
4. Where did the Elizabeth come from when Helen was buried?
I have also attached some other bits that Wivenhoe wanted.
The photo is the only one I have with something written on the back
The names from the bible are mostly Sutton except for "ellen" and Mary Knipe. (my family are not very good documenters!)
The birthdate came from my G'mother's birthday book 14 Aug
Janine
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Thank you for these images.
"..Where did the Elizabeth come from when Helen was buried?"
It came from the informant. Who is named as informant?
On birth certificates of her children - what age and birth place for mother Hellen?. Hellen might not have been so fussed about her age as mother of her children, and given other opportunities, people will sometimes give a slightly different location for birth place.
On the photo - I am only seeing "gran". I cannot make out anything else. And this is grandmother GRANT.....or grandmother SUTTON?
My interest in the details you are using is to separate the work of earlier researchers, from information recorded at the time of the event.
Where and when was the bible printed?. Might have been brought out to Australia from.....where?....by?...... Some were printed by Bible Societies.
You have a photo of Mary and Hellen taken in 1904. This is additional to the one you have attached here?. Can we see it please.
If Hellen has a connection to the KNIPE family, it might be more specifically through the BRAMHALLs.
I think it would be useful to know more about them....and what the birth registration of Oscar as BRAMHALL, 1872, is about.
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There is a probate packet for Oscar Abram KNIPE at NSW archives https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/685823
which I can photograph for you next time I am there. It should contain a death certificate and occasionally there are other certificates.
Ros
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Just adding a link to marriage notice for Mary BRAMHALL and John KNIPE
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12993936 (Sydney Morning Herald 9th april 1857)
On the 4th March, at Mudgee, in the Registrar's Office, by Mr.
Murray, the District Registrar, Mr. John Knipe, of Cobbera,
farmer, to Mary Ann, daughter of William Bramhall, of Windsor,
England.
Ros
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Thanks Rosball, Oscar's probate pack would be very useful.
I have not got a full copy of Eileen Sutton's birth certificate (only an extract!) so I'll get that in train. You are right Wivenhoe, her birth certificate may give us a bit more information.
"..Where did the Elizabeth come from when Helen was buried?" The first time Hellen uses the 'elizabeth' is at the marriage of Eileen in 1917. She was also an executor for a friend in 1933 and used 'elizabeth' there. Her dc also has 'elizabeth'. Who is named as informant? Walter Aldridge is the informant - Eileen's husband.
The photo was of Hellen Sutton nee GRANT. I only have a photocopy of the other 1904 photo which does not scan well and nothing was noted on the back.
If Hellen has a connection to the KNIPE family, it might be more specifically through the BRAMHALLs. Mary Bramhall came to Australia as a cook in 1855, with her sister Emma. She was born in Windsor and her father was in the 1st lifeguards. Mary was pregnant when she arrived and a daughter (Amelia) was born 4 months after the ship docked. She was also bought up by John Knipe but he wasn't the father.
what is birth registration of Oscar as BRAMHALL, 1872 about. Don't know ... he was christened BRAMHALL but all other doco says KNIPE. "Abram" as his second name has always confused the issue.
I'll order the birth certs for Eileen and Edna.
Cheers
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Possibly Abraham on the 1841 UK census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M771-6L5
The 1851: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG8T-BQ5
Looks like he may have had a sister Elizabeth and Ellen’s mother was Elizabeth, hence (H)Ellen’s middle name. Also, a brother Philip, middle name of first son in Australia.
Elizabeth not being on the birth certificate doesn’t mean she didn’t have a middle name. I have a ancestor who was registered as Ellen and after that she was always Helen, with two middle names, on all other documentation.
Jamjar
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Age and birthplace of mother Ellen might be interesting to see? I am sure your Hellen is several older than the 26 that she has on the marriage certificate. Hellen is ready to describe herself as older than husband John...but only just.
NSW BDM birth
12895 / 1883 GRANT Lila M parents - / Ellen @ Dubbo
I don't know if your Hellen likes creative variations of names......Hylene, Hellen etc or if she is just not fussed about spelling. I would expect to see her as Ellen / Helen / Hellen.
The name ABRAM appears as given name and family name in NSW BDM index. I do not know if it was an abbreviation of Abraham, and assumed use as a given name, or if it is really a family name, and confused with shortened form of Abraham, given name.
Betsy MAGUIRE, 25 at 1860, b. Limerick....no marriage 1858, Victoria.......
If Betsy is married (to someone else) you might hope to find births in Victoria pre 1858 with mother
Betsy / Elizabeth / Eliza M*GUIRE. I am not seeing any, assuming that they were registered.
If Betsy is unmarried, then, arriving in NSW, she has........died?....parted from Abraham?...... free to marry as Betsy M*GUIRE?
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Dubbo Liberal and Macquarie Advocate 30 Jul 1932 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131613995?
...Oscar KNIPE returning to Dubbo....left 1897....meeting old friends.....
(no mention of Hellen SUTTON)
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I'll order the birth certs for Eileen and Edna.
Please consider ordering the Official Transcription for Edna, and wait until you have closely examined it before considering ordering Eileen's. Official transcriptions come already transcribed, and with all the info on the real deal certificate and are not as expensive. (NSW BDM birth certs also include info about the baby's older siblings :D - so I am suggesting Edna's should have info about Eileen on it :D )
NSW BDM online lists its three approved Official Transcribers : (All are excellent)
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#Askafamilyhistorytranscriptionagent
Eileen's is ref # 12023/1894
Edna's is ref # 30244/1898
JM
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Are you using information that is passed to you by another researcher?
It would be really useful to sort out the information, the better to work with it. No information is better than misinformation. Your statements, and my comments / questions -
"Hellen and her father moved up to Mudgee and then Cobborah, NSW in 1867"
"She was bought up in cobborah/dubbo in the family of john knipe and mary bramhall."
You have no information about people involved in Hellen's life, or locations she might have lived in, before her marriage, 1892, when Hellen gives her birthplace as Kiama.
"Hellen's birthday was in the family bible and it aligns with her age at marriage."
"the bible entry - which is just "Gran 14 Aug" and then someone has added 1866 next to it. "
The entry in the bible is Ellen SUTTTON 1866.....later notated to include...... nee GRANT.
"I have a photo of Mary & Hellen taken in 1904."
You have a photocopy of a photograph, and not useful to place here because of poor definition. How have you identified people in the photo to be Mary and Hellen, and the year to be 1904? If another researcher has this photo you need to ask them about these details.
"Mary (KNIPE) was in Dubbo until 1913"
How do you know this and what happened in 1913?
"The birthdate came from my G'mother's birthday book 14 Aug"
If you have the birthday book it would be useful to see the image. Do you have the book?
You have a studio portrait photo, taken in Orange, of a woman, and the word "Gran" has been written on the back. And you do not have a name for this woman.
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Are you using information that is passed to you by another researcher? No, this is the first time anyone has researched it. I am however, using my grandmother's stories. photos and her birthday book to fill in the gaps. My Grandmother is Eileen, Hellen's daughter
"Hellen and her father moved up to Mudgee and then Cobborah, NSW in 1867" No evidence as such although there was AG in Cobbora in 1869-70 (from electoral roll)
"She was bought up in cobborah/dubbo in the family of john knipe and mary bramhall." Grandmother's story
You have no information about people involved in Hellen's life, or locations she might have lived in, before her marriage, 1892, when Hellen gives her birthplace as Kiama. True, except from my Grandmother. Hopefully once I have been through the forum's wonderful advice I will have more.
"I have a photo of Mary & Hellen taken in 1904."
You have a photocopy of a photograph, and not useful to place here because of poor definition. How have you identified people in the photo to be Mary and Hellen, and the year to be 1904? If another researcher has this photo you need to ask them about these details.
Not possible unfortunately, the photo was copied by me about 1980s from another cousin who has since died.
"Mary (KNIPE) was in Dubbo until 1913" How do you know this and what happened in 1913? 1911 Census and Electoral rolls. She went to Sydney to stay with Oscar so I suspect she was too old to look after herself alone.
"The birthdate came from my G'mother's birthday book 14 Aug" If you have the birthday book it would be useful to see the image? Attached
You have a studio portrait photo, taken in Orange, of a woman, and the word "Gran" has been written on the back. And you do not have a name for this woman. The women is Hellen Sutton. The Gran was written by Eileen, so she was identifying her mother.
All of the "unsure" bits are from Eileen (my grandmother), as a line of research I don't have any other until I can disprove her. Which as we know I am still yet to prove or not prove her stories. Or do I?
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i am finding some confusing information, but I will share it here, now.
1913, NSW Electoral Roll Ellen Elizabeth SUTTON and John Thomas SUTTON are shown on the NSW ER 1913, as at the Showground, Dubbo. He, a carpenter. NO others with that address by the surname Sutton.
1913 ER prepared after writs called for NSW general elections. Writs called 6 November.
1913, NSW electoral roll Oscar Abraham KNIPE, Barney St Parramatta, a warder. Also with same surname, Mary, Barney St, home duties and Mary, senior, Barney St, home duties. There are several electors on that Parramatta roll with surname SUTTON, but none named Ellen Elizabeth or John Thomas.
I am interested in learning about the 1869 Roll you mention and the 1911 Census too.
I have the hardcopy of the particular 1870 NSW electoral roll at hand. I have the CD for the 1913 NSW roll, and I have paper copy of the 1902 roll.
Ancestry and FindMyPast likely have uploaded the 1903-4 roll and the 1913 roll. I have no knowledge of a NSW census document giving names and identifying detail about any NSW residents.
ADD, I will continue to look for Mary KNIPE (senior) in Dubbo circa 1900-1913) :)
JM
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Hi peoples who have helped me ..
I have received the certificate for one of Hellen's kids - Edna. (see attached)
The certificate says that Hellen was 31 in 1898 (b.1867), and that she was born in Kiandra. The witness was Mrs Knipe (and as Mary Knipe was a midwife) I am going to call Ellen Sutton b.1860 in Cooma to Abraham and Betsy Grant as the person I have been looking for.
Do my helpers think this is the case even though the docs consistently say she was born in 1866/7?
If these are my people then it looks like Betsy died in Forbes in 1862. Abraham arrived back in Jersey in 1874 to a family who had already declared him dead!
Janine
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majm
"..am interested in learning about the 1869 Roll you mention and the 1911 Census"
The supplementary Electoral roll for Bogan in 1869/70 came from the Mitchell Library (the link on the digitised transcription is dead). (see attached page) and sorry I meant 1901 Census not 1911.
Cheers and thanks J
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If you are interested to pursue the possible connection between Mary Ann KNIPE and your Hellen SUTTON, the death certificate of Mary KNIPE would be useful.
Children listed on her death certificate might lead to a connection between your Hellen GRANT and other children born to Mary. Given that Oscar is registered as BRAMHALL would suggest that Mary is not living with husband John?.
You might expect that an ageing Mary KNIPE might stay in Dubbo to be cared for by Hellen GRANT. Adult daughters usually looked after ageing parents.
I suspect that any GRANT - KNIPE association is not quite as family stories might suggest.
And, how have you attached names and date to the photo.........Hellen and Mary, 1904. Otherwise all you have is a blurred image of a photo you copied 40 years ago.
I think this birth record would be worth a closer look for age and birthplace of mother, birthplace of Lila, and name of informant.
12895 / 1883 GRANT Lila M 12895/1883 parents - / Ellen @ Dubbo
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I would certainly be encouraged to see your Hellen to be the 1860 birth. The 1862 death of Betsy GRANT, Forbes also looks good, and worth a closer look.
Abraham arriving back in Jersey, 1874....I think I missed that one. Where are you seeing that?.
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Kiandra ... yes, births there would have been registered in Cooma, you will find that the NSW BDM online index drills down to 10 July, 1860 ... so that's different from the birthday book entry by the date/month, as well as the year.... I wonder if the birthday book actually has the date of baptism ... just speculating of course... but as an aside, my Auntie Mary always celebrated a particular date from 1909 as her birthday, and until I checked all her papers for her, so too did her siblings and off spring etc ... All of them had been celebrating the date of her christening ... she was actually nine weeks older ... We sorted it in time for her 100th :) and she got TWO celebrations that year, as a surprise treat.
Socially, in the 1880s and 1890s ladies often gave their age as though they were the same or younger than their husbands, so I see nothing unusual in the 1895 birth cert info that John gave about himself, his wife, and their children on Edna's birth cert. The info was given verbally, and recorded in a ledger facing the clerk, who likely turned the large ledger around and simply said "sign here' when the entry had been recorded.
Many thanks for confirming the 1869 electoral roll, and thanks for clearing up that Census ref, all of us likely have troublesome keyboards that specialise in making typos just to trick those reading the info.
The 1862 d.c. may well name Abraham and Betsey's children and give their ages ... but if you are ordering, please do consider the official transcriptions ... you will have pennies left over for further NSW bdm records to further your quest ... :)
JM