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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: rkive82 on Friday 31 August 18 00:31 BST (UK)
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For George Denis Meadows who was born 23rd June 1889 in Wandsworth and died in December 1978 in Connecticut, USA (or Cheltenham, Gloucestershire) we have:
MEADOWS, GEORGE DENIS mother MOLLETT; GRO Reference: 1889 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 668
I believe his mother was Etta Mollett - MOLLETT, ETTA mother SMITH; Order GRO Reference: 1864 D Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 517
However, a record in the 1881 census has an Etta Davis with her father Charles Davis and it is an Etta Davis who married John Meadows in Shepherds Bush in April 1883.
In Q Sept 1901, Etta Meadows married Henry Motteram. I believe this is the same Etta in all cases, but ...
I haven't been able to find a death record for Etta anywhere. I don't know what happened to John Meadows or Charles Davis; did Charles adopt Etta?
Any help will be much appreciated.
Richard
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Well this seems strange -needs to be looked into further
I haven’t yet found Charles Davis in 1871 but here he is, I would say in 1861
1861 2112/6/6
Charles Davis 40 yrs Game Keeper b Hindlip, Worcestershire
Ann Davis 42 yrs wife
John Meadows 11 yrs Nephew b Pershore, Worcs.
Nephew is written in the ‘occupation’ box and I can’t read what is written for John in the relation to head of family.
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John Meadows with Charles and Ann in 1851
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGCD-88J
John Meadows 1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB6X-346
John Meadows 1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-T7H5
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Thanks. I think it also says Nephew for relation to Head in the 1861 Census.
So ... Etta Davis who is said to be the daughter of Charles Davis in 1881 married John Meadows in 1883.
For this to happen, I'm assuming that they are not blood relatives ... or certainly not that close.
Richard
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In the FreeBMD index we have Charles Davis and Ann Meadows in the marriage records for Q Dec 1848 in Worcester vol 18 page 130.
I am guessing that they married each other and not someone else on the page.
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I ordered the pdf version of the birth certificate for George Denis Meadows in 1889 to see if it gives us more information about his parents.
Richard
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I am not sure how much information you already have but you will have this...
1891 31/121
Boarding in Kensington
Etta Meadows married 30 yrs Teacher of Languages b Brighton, Sussex
George Meadows 21 months b Brixton
George b 1889 mmmn Mollett
School record
21st February 1898
George Denis Meadows birth 23 June 1890 (wrong year) Father John
Address 85 Finboro’ Road
Then ..
1891 126/ 134
5 Chenies Place Pancras
John Meadows m 41 yrs Railway Porter b Pershore
Frank Meadows 7 yrs b St Pancras
Frank Meadows b Pancras mmn Davis
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For George Denis Meadows who was born 23rd June 1889 in Wandsworth and died in December 1978 in Connecticut, USA (or Cheltenham, Gloucestershire)
FreeBMD shows George Denis Meadows born 23 June 1889 died Jan/Mar.1979 Cheltenham district so not sure why you think he could have died in Connecticut :-\
This is confirmed by Probate record- (1979) George Denis Meadows of Penn House, 18B Tivoli Rd., Cheltenham died 24 Dec,1978. See here to search for full extract-
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
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1901 49/149/63
Hammersmith
Henry Motteram 41 yrs
Etta Motteram 36 yrs midwife b St John’s Wood
George D Meadows 11 yrs b Clapham
Irenee Meadows 6 yrs b Clapham
Alice Wright servant 25 yrs
Lucy Upchurch visitor 64
Claude M Macdonald visitor 8 months
Etta has been transcribed as Ellen and George D as George W but they do read as correct names
There are two births
Irene Meadows 1896 Lambeth no mmn
Irene Annie Elizabeth 1894 mmn James
The 2nd one is elsewhere in 1911 so seems to be the Lambeth one.
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Frank Meadows is a boarder in Wealdstone in 1901. His occupation supports 1939 entry which supports a date of birth found in baptism of Frank to John and Etta.
Possibility for father John in 1901 157/37 because of occupation ???
Leavesden Asylum, Hertfordshire
John Meadows married Patient 53 yrs Railway Guard b St Pancras described as a ‘lunatic’.
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Good morning. I am in California and probably eight hours behind most of you.
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George Denis Meadows - George was a naturalised US citizen and his Social Security death record stated Dec 1978 and no more. Thanks for the probate record.
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John Meadows - I haven't found a death record for him. Would the fact that he was a "lunatic" be grounds for Etta remarrying Henry Motteram or could there be a divorce record out there?
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Etta Mollett/Davis/Meadows/Motteram - Henry died in 1928 but Etta was still alive in 1934. I can find no death record, marriage record, immigration record or 1939 Register record for her. Where did she go?
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Irenee (Irence) Meadows - MEADOWS, IRENCE HERCK mother DAVIS; GRO Reference: 1894 D Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 534
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We still have lots of unanswered questions. It's a challenge isn't it.
Thanks for your help everyone.
Richard
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The birth certificate of Etta that you have the reference for would be good re parent/s.
No sign, as yet, if Etta or Charles David in 1871 :-\
Did you know about Frank?
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I am thinking that William Mollett and Emily Smith are Etta's parents, so what happened to them?
I may have to purchase that pdf cert too.
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I did know about Frank. I was reluctant to add too many family members to my Anc tree as this branch is a little distant. But now that we're spending a lot of time on it and I don't see them on other trees, I'll add Frank too.
Thanks
Richard
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Yes I wondered about that marriage and I think they are in 1861 ???
Just found 10 Askew Terrace in 1871 and it is one of 5 unoccupied houses.
1871 63/98/41
It does help if you post relevant details you already have -stops unnecessary searches and reports.
I thought you didn’t have John anywhere, that is why I searched for him and thus found Frank.
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Could Etta have emigrated or visited US and then died?
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Thanks for that info re 10 Askew Terrace.
My initial post -
"However, a record in the 1881 census has an Etta Davis with her father Charles Davis and it is an Etta Davis who married John Meadows in Shepherds Bush in April 1883.
In Q Sept 1901, Etta Meadows married Henry Motteram. I believe this is the same Etta in all cases, but ...
I haven't been able to find a death record for Etta anywhere. I don't know what happened to John Meadows or Charles Davis; did Charles adopt Etta?"
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So to be more specific, I am still looking for death records for Etta Motteram born 1864, John Meadows born 1850 and even Charles Davis born about 1820.
Thanks
Richard
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I did try a US search and a google search for Etta Motteram, but have found nothing so far.
Richard
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Thank you for the reminder re the initial post - no need to repost. I could have gone back.
It would still have been best to indicate that you had John in censuses, especially as they were possibly living separately in 1891.
Yes the Molletts are together in 1861.
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Good point. Do you think it is acceptable to mention that I have this branch on my public Ancestry tree?
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There are so many "players" here, it's difficult to list all of them. :o
Richard
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No worries.
Just as long as we are now just looking for the people you haven’t found.
But again, good to give that info at the beginning also.
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According to freebmd, Etta Motteran married in 1935 to a John Nolan in Kensington.
In the 1939 register they are living together in Battersea along
Etta Nolan d. 1952 aged 88, in Battersea.
Her probate is found in 1953 (probatesearch.service.gov.uk ) and records her death as 29 November 1952, and her last address as 5 Bolingbroke-grove, Wandsworth. She left a will (probate not administration). The two names listed with her are likely not related (the executors are not necessarily those who received the money).
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That’s a great find jorose :)
And a birthdate :)
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Well done jorose. I have added the information to my tree and it does tie everything together in as much as Etta's birth date fits perfectly i.e. 26th September 1864.
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I added a postem to the FreeBMD index marriage record to give the correct spelling of Motteram and will do the same on Ancestry.
Thanks so much,
Richard
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I had forgotten I had found William and Emily Mollett in 1871 too.
1871 622/36/20 living in Newington but no Etta.
William Mollett 42 yrs b Bolton Percy, Yorkshire
Emily Mollett 33 yrs b Newington, Surrey
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William Mollett must be the one who died Dec 1871 in St. Saviour district (aged 43).
There is an Emily Mollett died in the same district in 1887 but age recorded as just 40...
I think the 1864 birth certificate is needed to understand the situation. The Mollett name is fairly rare but Smith is not and there is at least one later Mollett/Smith pairing (married 1871, several children from marriage onwards but no possible for Etta) to muddy the waters.
Has anyone be able to find Etta in 1871?
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The death record for William fits but I wasn't able to find anything for Emily with an age that fits with the census information.
I am waiting to get a pdf of the birth of George Denis Meadows and perhaps I'll order another for Etta's birth in 1864.
I haven't been able to find Etta in 1871.
Richard
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From the marriage of William Mollett and Emily Smith on 24th July 1860 comes this info:
William is a widower and a hairdresser by profession. His father was John Mollett (decd.), innkeeper.
Emily is a spinster; her father was William Smith, butcher.
Both are of full age living at Pratt Street.
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I shall try looking for the Smith family and see if Etta is with any of them in 1871.
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N.B. The above marriage date contradicts another record which has the date of marriage as 29th April 1860. The marriage was registered in the Sept quarter, so July seems more likely to me.
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Etta's a bit indiscriminate about what maiden name she uses. There's a further child on 1911 - this is her registration
MOTTERAM, HENRIETTA
mother's maiden name MEADOWS
Q1 1902 RICHMOND-SURREY Volume 02A Page 445
Could this suggest Etta was potentially an Henrietta?
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I wonder how much Mr Motteram and others knew about Etta's past? The connection with Charles Davis and Mollett family?
I will order the 1864 birth cert today.
Richard
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Possibility for father John in 1901 157/37 because of occupation ???
Leavesden Asylum, Hertfordshire
John Meadows married Patient 53 yrs Railway Guard b St Pancras described as a ‘lunatic’.
There are workhouse records for John Meadows being admitted from Leavesden Asylum c1906-10 (dates of records a bit lacking). One notes "wife Etta Meadows?"
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In the 1901 Census (taken 1st April 1901), Etta is listed as the wife of Henry Motteram.
They married officially later in the year - registered in the September quarter anyway.
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I still haven't found a death record for John Meadows.
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I haven’t checked this out, but someone has Etta on their family tree as marrying John Nolan in 1935. Dying as Etta Nolan in 1952 in Battersea
ADDED You already know this! Sorry, I missed that when reading through.
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Well here's a surprise. :o
Etta Mollett was born on 26th September 1864 at 7 Charles Street, Marylebone.
Her father was BENJAMIN Mollett, a butler.
Her mother was Harriett Mollett previously PEARMAN formerly SMITH.
Harriett, of 7 Charles Street was the informant.
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So I shall have to take a look at my tree and make some changes.
Richard
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Just shows that you shouldn’t put unsubstantiated information on your tree ;)
Interesting though. Both Benjamin and William Mollett were born Bolton Percy so perhaps brothers.
Benjamin is unmarried in 1871.
Added
Yes they do seem to be brothers - Father John, innkeeper
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So here's Harriet's marriage - I can;t find one to Benjamin Mollett, which supports his calim of being single in 1971
David Pearman - stableman, residence All Souls, full age
Father James Pearman - farmer
Harriet Smith - spinster, full age, residence District
Father George Smith shoemaker
Marriage 15 Sep 1857, Langham, Westminster
Witnesses Fred Minton [?] and Charlotte Smith
Register Type: Parish Register
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Thank you Mabel. I haven't found a marriage for Harriett and Benjamin either.
If Etta was born out of wedlock, I suppose it's not surprising if she was adopted.
Richard
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I can’t see David Pearman and Harriet or Harriet on her own or with a child called Etta - very odd.
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Possible death
1860 St George Hanover Square
David Pearman 26 yrs
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1861 -
George Smith 55 - shoemaker b Bristol
Charlotte Smith 55 - shoemaker b Pytchley Northamptonshire
Matilda Smith 20 - b Cambridge
Emma Smith 18 - b Cambridge
Ann W Smith 16 - b Cambridge
Ellen Smith 12 - b Cambridge
Henry G Pearman 3 - grandson, St James Westminster
William A Pearman 1 - grandson, St George Hanover Sq
1851 George & Charlotte have daughter Harriet b Cambridge c1841
RG 9, 41, 7, 16
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1871 William is with his Pearman grandparents in Sherfield Upon Loddon, nr Winchester
There's also visitor - Ella Smith aged 6 b St John's Wood, Surrey [sic]. Could this be Etta??
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Thanks everybody,
Here is the GRO death record for David Pearman:
PEARMAN, DAVID 26 Order
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE
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Ella Smith could well be our ETTA. We have yet to find her anywhere else.
Richard
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William Albert Pearman baptised Sherfield Upon Loddon July 1861, son of David and Harriet
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Great finds Mabel :)
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I;ve been following the boys to see if they can help find Harriet, but not much luck. William appears to return to London and settle down as a cabinet maker. Henry however appears to be rather light fingered and might have convictions for stealing from the workplace in the 1870s and 1900 (when he is said to have alias Thomas Harrison) after which I lose him
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1861 Harriet Pearman 25 widow b. Cambridge is a nurse in the household of the Countess Waldegrave in Hastings RG9/562 folio 92 pg 1
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There's a Harriet Wymark b c1835 who marries Edward Pearman in Brighton in 1857. She turns up on earlier and later censuses but b Brighton, so could be 1861 is the wrong person?
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Edward & Harriet Pearman are together in Brighton on the 1861 RG9/562 folio 92 pg 1, so the one in Hastings born Cambridge seems a possible candidate for the mother of Etta. Certainly working in the right sort of household to meet a butler.
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There's a marriage record for a Harriett Pearman in Q Dec 1874 in Hemel Hempstead vol 3a page 612.
The groom is either a Henry Lane or a George Oldring.
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Could this be our Harriett?
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George Oldring married Ellen Lovell and the Harriet married to Henry Lane is 29 in 1881 and born Abbots Langley.