RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Andcarred on Friday 31 August 18 00:35 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
Is anyone else concerned about the 50 year closure on Marriages. I personally do not think it is long enough. My marriage details have now appeared on the NSW BDM site and while this does not particularly worry me I know there are some of my friends who married around the same time who are quite concerned that this information has been made public.
It is quite common now for couples to celebrate their 60th wedding anniversaries so I query whether a 50 year closure period is satisfactory. What do other RootChat members think?
Andcarred
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:) NSW BDM has 50 year closure, but I think Vic BDM has a different process, I think, (not sure) that there's a lengthy number of years for the restriction, but also that both bride and groom need to be deceased.
We married in 1974, in NSW. My older brother married in NSW too, and so too all my siblings, all my first cousins, my parents, my grandparents (and their respective siblings) my greats etc... I know that I could spend some pennies and obtain the m.c. for my living relatives who married more than 50 years ago. But on the other hand, I actually attended the weddings for my cousins, sometimes in the official party. As they are living relatives if I want confirmation of their details I would simply ask them for those details. If they are not family history buffs, then I would gently mention of course that their m.c. is publically available, anyone can purchase without id etc... and if I were to purchase I would give them a copy of that record/document.
There is an increasing trend to tighten the already tight privacy rules/practices etc, so perhaps this is a sensible time to share a pdf file about Australia's privacy (Office of Australian Information Commission)
https://www.oaic.gov.au/resources/agencies-and-organisations/guides/what-is-personal-information.pdf
https://www.oaic.gov.au/media-and-speeches/news/the-oaic-welcomes-the-appointment-of-angelene-falk-as-australian-information-commissioner-and-privacy-commissioner
What information is actually on a NSW marriage Certificate ? from NSW BDM website: https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/registry-records.aspx
Bridegroom's full name, occupation, place of residence, conjugal status, place and date of birth, age, father's name and mother's maiden name.
Bride's full name, occupation, place of residence, conjugal status, place and date of birth, age, father's name and mother's maiden name. Celebrant's name and witnesses.
So there's lots of personal/sensitive information there.
JM
ADD, I have checked my copy of the NSW BDM registration of my marriage (needed to obtain certified copy for passport purposes) and the depth of detail gives not just my father's occupation, but by virtue of his occupation, it gives his employer details too... :) Similarly for my husband, because of his occupation as described on the 1974 registration, it is obvious to any NSW family history buff who he worked for at that time. :) privacy ! ummmm....
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I think you will get a varied response to your question :-\
Personally, I think most people are only interested in the genealogy side (dates) i.e. not interested in 'personal lives' & probably wouldn't give a thought to the people still being alive & by that I mean, it wouldn't cross their minds :-\
You can actually get in touch with them to ask for your details to be removed if you so wish.
Annie
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....
You can actually get in touch with them to ask for your details to be removed if you so wish.
Annie
:)
Annie, I am not so sure that you can ask for your marriage cert details to be removed from the NSW BDM registry. I am actually certain that the registry does not have authority to remove entries from its records.
JM
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I think
30 50 years is too soon Andcarred.
I am in Qld and our unrestricted availability is:
- births that took place more than 100 years ago
- marriages that took place more than 75 years ago
- deaths that took place more than 30 years ago.
Proof of ID is required to purchase certificates for more recent events. Several years ago I applied for my grandparent's marriage certificate knowing that I was a few weeks short of the 75 year cut off, but as they had unusual names and ages, and my surname is the same, I thought they might overlook this. No. I had to go to a JP with proof of relationship in order to re-apply for their marriage certificate.
I always thought it odd that you could purchase d/cs from 30 years ago. Death certificates contain just as much information as the other more restricted certificates - more in fact as they contain more personal information such as children's names, other marriages, and cause of death. If a person has left a will the d/c is contained in the file so is free to view by anyone at the Qld State Archives..
You should count yourself lucky though. My children were born in '92 and '95 in the UK and their births are on the free index on Ancestry. I'm not very happy in that knowledge. I don't know what proof, if any, is necessary for anyone to purchase these certificates.
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Hi JM,
What is more concerning is I have just found a full copy of my parents marriage certificate as signed by them in the Church which is downloadable on Ancestry. My main concern is that some Banks use mother's maiden name as security question. I suppose I should be pleased I have not had to pay to get a full copy of this certificate but I do wonder how it came about. Does Ancestry have permission from the Registry to do this? I rather think not as the Registry would be missing out on the fee.
As far as only family historians being interested in these details, I feel hackers all over the world would love to get their hands on such sensitive information, just as the Police and other authorities love Facebook.
Andcarred
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Ruskie,
As far as I know, to order any cert. listed on BMDs on the indexes of GRO & SP you only have to request with the indexed ref. & pay the fee, no questions asked.
Annie
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:)
Most of my NSW ancestors married C of E. Those that married in Sydney Diocese ... yes all those marriages are easily findable via Ancestry. I can definitely confirm that my parents marriage is there, and that I recognise their signatures ... not just the info there. Same with both sets of Grandparents, I recognise their signatures too ...And aunties/uncles etc... :)
My concern is not for family history buffs, but for the unscrupulous scammers who may well phone some of my older rellies and say "Hello Fred (or whatever), this is Joe (or whatever) from next door to JM (or my real name) and JM says that you will be able to help support our local charity drive with a donation. I wrote down the bank account details that JM gave me, but I want to check with you. Can you please confirm your credit card number ...... (etc).... and your mother's maiden name .... so we can go online and organise your donation on JMs behalf....
It is something that NSW senior police officers express concern about regularly when addressing community forums in regional and rural NSW...
JM
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Hi JM,
What is more concerning is I have just found a full copy of my parents marriage certificate as signed by them in the Church which is downloadable on Ancestry. My main concern is that some Banks use mother's maiden name as security question. I suppose I should be pleased I have not had to pay to get a full copy of this certificate but I do wonder how it came about. Does Ancestry have permission from the Registry to do this? I rather think not as the Registry would be missing out on the fee.
As far as only family historians being interested in these details, I feel hackers all over the world would love to get their hands on such sensitive information, just as the Police and other authorities love Facebook.
Andcarred
What collection is that under Andcarred?
I think Ancestry syphon information from many sources, some of it may be from private collections, or posted by a relative on another site which Ancestry have "done a deal" with maybe. :-\
Is there any information about the source of the certificate?
You could contact Ancestry and request that it be removed. I did that once and it was surprisingly easy. They responded reasonably quickly and said they would remove it in their next "batch" which they did - so presumably they get many requests to remove this kind of material.
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Ruskie,
As far as I know, to order any cert. listed on BMDs on the indexes of GRO & SP you only have to request with the indexed ref. & pay the fee, no questions asked.
Annie
That's a bit worrying. I don't expect anyone to want to steal my or my children's identity, but the easy availability doesn't sit well with me.
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Ancestry has agreement with Sydney Diocese. Doesn't need NSW BDM permission, as it is NOT the document that NSW BDM holds.
I explain:
From 1856 with commencement of civil registration in NSW, when a couple are married by clergy, then there's two ceremonies happening concurrently... the religious one and the civil one. The civil record is a separate set of documents signed by the parties.
So for example when I married:
I signed the church registers (two off)
I signed the civil registers (one was a form for the clergy to keep for proof, and the other was a for the clergy to forward to NSW BDM etc)
I signed the 'bride certificate' (the document handed to the bride by the clergy at end of the ceremony.
Two off church registers ... C of E rules, keep these two registers separate from each other, never deliberately destroy them.
JM
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http://www.sydneyanglicanarchives.com.au/index.php/p2/family_history.html
Ancestry and Sydney Diocese Archivist :)
We are currently preparing for a mass digitisation project with Ancestry.com, which will provide even wider public access to the information contained in our baptism, confirmation, banns, marriage, and burial registers.
JM
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:)
Most of my NSW ancestors married C of E. Those that married in Sydney Diocese ... yes all those marriages are easily findable via Ancestry. I can definitely confirm that my parents marriage is there, and that I recognise their signatures ... not just the info there. Same with both sets of Grandparents, I recognise their signatures too ...And aunties/uncles etc... :)
My concern is not for family history buffs, but for the unscrupulous scammers who may well phone some of my older rellies and say "Hello Fred (or whatever), this is Joe (or whatever) from next door to JM (or my real name) and JM says that you will be able to help support our local charity drive with a donation. I wrote down the bank account details that JM gave me, but I want to check with you. Can you please confirm your credit card number ...... (etc).... and your mother's maiden name .... so we can go online and organise your donation on JMs behalf....
It is something that NSW senior police officers express concern about regularly when addressing community forums in regional and rural NSW...
JM
Oh, I didn't know that images of (relatively recent) Australian marriages were on Ancestry. I will have to see what I can find.
Good point about the possibility of scammers JM. I never trust anyone but I can imagine my "ridiculously trusting" father being taken in by someone saying they know someone who knows him, though he would not give his card details to anyone. (though I can imagine many might)
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http://www.sydneyanglicanarchives.com.au/index.php/p2/family_history.html
Ancestry and Sydney Diocese Archivist :)
Thank you JM. I don't have any connections with Sydney so that will explain why I haven't seen this.
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Hi JM,
The copy from Ancestry says "Register Book for the use of Ministers authorised to celebrate Marriages under the Acts Nos. 15 and 17, 1809." so obviously from the Church register which was Church of England then, now Anglican. I now live in Queensland and here we have to produce identification if we order certificates, be related to the people we are enquiring about and say why we need the certificate. Too bad I married in NSW. Concerning situation about the Sydney Diocese.
Sorry can't continue this very interesting top as out to lunch.
Cheers,
Andcarred
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Yes the NSW marriage act 1899 is readily available online.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/ma1899n15112.pdf
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/robdama1899n17429.pdf
later one:
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/ma1934n1192.pdf
harmonising in 1960s
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/ma1934n1192.pdf
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/lrpa1964n17310.pdf
current
https://www.justice.nsw.gov.au/Pages/media-news/media-releases/2018/NSW-first-to-harmonise-marriage-act.aspx
Here's the heading from Ancestry : Sydney, Australia, Anglican Parish Registers, 1814-2011
yes, 2011.
JM
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I am in Qld and our unrestricted availability is:
- births that took place more than 100 years ago
- marriages that took place more than 75 years ago
- deaths that took place more than 30 years ago.
I was unable to obtain a marriage cert. i wanted due to the 75 year restriction. I then ordered their divorce records from the State archives [which off the top of my head had a 30 year restriction] There was a copy of their marriage cert. in the divorce records. So at times these records can be found amongst other data so it seems. Not that it should make any difference but the couple were young when they married and divorced when aged early 70's.
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Ruskie,
I was doing a family tree for a friend as a gift & was able to purchase the marriage cert. of the parents to get back to the next generation as the people in question were still alive i.e. the mmn wouldn't be on the index of deaths & I had no problem.
I also have a BC of someone born as late as 1950s which has 'Adopted' on their record!
The child was adopted 'by' another family, rather than being adopted 'by' the 'birth' parents named on the BC.
I ordered that cert. in the same way as the marriage above, both not being downloadable, wait for it...
Because of the 100 yr birth rule & 75 yr marriage rule ???
I don't actually see the difference of being able to purchase yet not download the certs?
The only difference is the price if compared with the privacy rules which could be incorporated for those later certs. ::)
Annie
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Lucky you were not buying the certificates for evil means Annie. ;) ;D
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I just checked the Victorian BDM and it is 60 years after the registration.
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Lucky you were not buying the certificates for evil means Annie. ;) ;D
Indeed Ruskie but equally those registrations are accessible at New Register House (Edinburgh) i.e. I would like to know where/when/who/what reasons 'privacy' relates to in this day & age :-\
It seems to me to be 'at/not at liberty' depending on who/where/when i.e. no definite rule across the board.
Annie
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I just checked the Victorian BDM and it is 60 years after the registration.
The online site only has 1950 and before
Pedantic I know :D
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I just checked the Victorian BDM and it is 60 years after the registration.
The online site only has 1950 and before
Pedantic I know :D
So they are taking their time putting them up. ;D ;D
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Lucky you were not buying the certificates for evil means Annie. ;) ;D
Indeed Ruskie but equally those registrations are accessible at New Register House (Edinburgh) i.e. I would like to know where/when/who/what reasons 'privacy' relates to in this day & age :-\
It seems to me to be 'at/not at liberty' depending on who/where/when i.e. no definite rule across the board.
Annie
It doesn't help that privacy is so different from country to country and state to state. Sometimes I wonder if they haven't thought it through properly. Rather than tightening up it seems they are becoming more lax in some areas.
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Replying from England, so legislation different to Australia.
The fact of a marriage is public, as the marriage ceremony is a public one. So Joe Smith married Jane Jones on 15th June 1986 in Somewheresville isn't really anything that must be protected. Indeed there's a good chance that it'll me mentioned in the local Press as well; and a more recent marriage will be on Facebook or similar. With a bit of diligent searching of newspapers it would often be possible to establish a MMN, for example.
So the issue is about protecting other personal data on the marriage certificate. However the only sensible way to do that is to restrict access to the entire certificate (as I've discovered when researching Canadian records).
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I just checked the Victorian BDM and it is 60 years after the registration.
I just checked the Victorian BDM and it is 60 years after the registration.
The online site only has 1950 and before
Pedantic I know :D
In Victoria it would now appear that Marriage certificates to 1950 are considered historical ie no identity requirements from the applicant wishing to purchase a certificate. It was for many years to 1942 and then 1945.
Previously I understood that both parties to the marriage had to be deceased before a certificate would be issued to a third party who would have to cite a reason for requiring the certificate and attach copies of their identification. I'm horrified at this recent change in Victoria. I have many friends who married in the late 1950's and I'm in the 1960's. I hope that the 'both parties must be deceased' still stands.
Cando
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I think ACT and Qld are 75 years restricted before members of general public can gain access.
Perhaps if our Federal government were to consider harmonising the laws between the states and territories under one federal piece of legislation for modelling across all the eight jurisdictions, perhaps 80 years on marriage certs would be reassuring for those who are living and who are clearly identifible from the info on these registrations....
Remembering these certificates include information about the bride, the groom, their ancestors, but also information about the witnesses. For rural families, giving informationa about the usual residence of the bride / groom is often giving CURRENT information, not just historic information. Even city folk can stay at same address for generations. I have several relatives who are in their 90s and 100s, and still living at same address as shown against their name on the NSW electoral rolls that Ancestry has uploaded. One cousin born in 1920s still lives at same address as his grandparents who are listed as per electoral rolls for 1902. That cousin is most concerned about personal privacy, and is following this thread, although not an RChatter.
JM
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JM,
What I was expressing to Ruskie earlier on in this thread, info. outwith the privacy dates for online 'downloads' for Scottish certs. are still accessible via ordering at full price as opposed to the cheaper versions outwith the privacy periods at a fraction of the price but for the certs. outwith the privacy terms there's no need to 'prove' any relationship to the person you wish to order a cert for as long as you pay the fee.
It's a worry of course to some who wish anonimity although personally, I have no problem being a 'secret' as there's far more recent info. available about me via many sources from business adverts, electoral rolls, phonebook entries etc.
Annie
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Hi Annie,
In Australia, each of the eight jurisdictions have their own parliaments, making eight sets of laws, PLUS there's the Federal law coming out of Canberra. But all of those 8 jurisdictions restrict access to the bdms for their state/territory. It doesn't matter if they are ordered online or in person, the same restrictions apply. If I want my own birth details, (NSW bdm, registered in rural NSW 1947), I need 100 points of ID before they will consider processing my application. Unless you are named on that document, you have NO chance of obtaining it, until 2047. My younger siblings cannot obtain it, but my older siblings can, for they are named on it. My parents can too, as they are both named on it.
If I consider my 1974 NSW marriage, there's a great deal of sensitive information on it that is simply NOT available for members of the general public to access. The information is not anywhere else on the web. There's no submitted trees online naming my parents or myself or my siblings. Similiarly for my other living relatives who are family history buffs. Nope, trees are not online. My sister in law (the one who is a family history buff) has a tree online... does not include her own generation or her parents generation.
This is not a matter of 'secrecy', it is a matter of respect for the legal expectation of privacy of the individual that has been a tenet of the Australian Democracy for decades and decades, even back into the 1810s when those who had been transported but had served their sentence ie were emancipated, and therefore free, were outnumbering those who were still under sentence. :)
Back at reply #1 I posted the following link :) https://www.oaic.gov.au/resources/agencies-and-organisations/guides/what-is-personal-information.pdf So, in Australia, the concept of privacy of the individual is very different from the UK one. :)
JM
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Hi JM,
What is more concerning is I have just found a full copy of my parents marriage certificate as signed by them in the Church which is downloadable on Ancestry. My main concern is that some Banks use mother's maiden name as security question. I suppose I should be pleased I have not had to pay to get a full copy of this certificate but I do wonder how it came about. Does Ancestry have permission from the Registry to do this? I rather think not as the Registry would be missing out on the fee.
As far as only family historians being interested in these details, I feel hackers all over the world would love to get their hands on such sensitive information, just as the Police and other authorities love Facebook.
Andcarred
I have found many certificates on Ancestry. I don't think they vet what people post and the privacy rules from governments don't apply if they have source information provided by other organisations. I have used the certificates in my research.
I am of the school that has no problems with the 50 year access to marriage certificates. There are many ways other than certificates that someone's maiden name can be determined. In the US most women use their maiden name as their middle name after marriage. Having married in 1968 I was quite pleased to have moved into history & found myself online :)
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JM,
"This is not a matter of 'secrecy',"..
My quote "I have no problem being a 'secret' " was to outline the fact, there's more info. available about me online (of recent dates) which could possibly/probably identify me if anyone was intent on discovering who I am for whatever reason?
They may be scuppered/confused if researching what's available online as my marriage will not appear on the Scottish records system as I was married abroad i.e. may cause a dilemma/curiosity as to why I'm not on SP marriages ;D
I find this hillarious for my future descendants as it will give them something to ponder (as I've had to do) in my own research with an unmarried direct ancestor with 7 illegitimate children with 3 different surnames (using father's surnames) but fun to research although frustrating along the way until I nailed them all :D
Annie
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Hi JM,
What is more concerning is I have just found a full copy of my parents marriage certificate as signed by them in the Church which is downloadable on Ancestry. My main concern is that some Banks use mother's maiden name as security question. I suppose I should be pleased I have not had to pay to get a full copy of this certificate but I do wonder how it came about. Does Ancestry have permission from the Registry to do this? I rather think not as the Registry would be missing out on the fee.
As far as only family historians being interested in these details, I feel hackers all over the world would love to get their hands on such sensitive information, just as the Police and other authorities love Facebook.
Andcarred
I have found many certificates on Ancestry. I don't think they vet what people post and the privacy rules from governments don't apply if they have source information provided by other organisations. I have used the certificates in my research.
I am of the school that has no problems with the 50 year access to marriage certificates. There are many ways other than certificates that someone's maiden name can be determined. In the US most women use their maiden name as their middle name after marriage. Having married in 1968 I was quite pleased to have moved into history & found myself online :)
I read the Opening Post as though Andcarred is referring to New South Wales BDM restrictions for accessing their marriage registrations. I doubt there's many ways to determine my maiden name without accessing NSW BDM records. I have tried, so too have my elderly rellies, including retired clergy, retired Archivist, retired senior officers from NSW BDM and we have challenged the younger set to finding us online.... they have not yet succeeded, despite being given clues like:
Try Trove, try Ancestry, try Find My Past, try NSW state library, try online indexes. none of my generation or those two generations still living, and older than me ... have facebook or similar. The younger set know NOT to share info about us, no photos, no identifying words...
JM
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Many - and I mean MANY - years ago, the RGs of the various states and territories in Australia came together and decided on the closure periods. But then they didn't all implement the same thing!
[It was some time in the 1980s I believe]
They decided 100 years for births; 80 years for marriages; 30 years for deaths.
This, they thought, meant that there would be few people still alive whom the birth and marriage periods would not 'protect'.
At that stage, privacy laws as we now know them did not exist, nor did the current problem of hackers, scammers and the like.
Dawn M
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I read the Opening Post as though Andcarred is referring to New South Wales BDM restrictions for accessing their marriage registrations. I doubt there's many ways to determine my maiden name without accessing NSW BDM records.
JM
You must have a limited internet presence. My mother's maiden name and my maiden name are online with the SMH notice of my birth. Very easy to find. My marriage notice can also be found in the NSWSL and the NLA SMH images. My mothers maiden and married name is on her memorial inscription and on the funeral notice which can be found in local newspapers (index on the Ryerson Index). My married name is on that funeral notice, so not difficult to determine my maiden name from said notice. Her maiden name is also in archive records related to her profession before marriage. My husband and his siblings can be found in the Qld archives school records.
I didn't know it was compulsory on this website to discuss only the exact item as mentioned by the OP. As I demonstrate above, there are many ways to find out a person's maiden name without reference to the NSW BDM records. Consequently I don't have a problem with finding my marriage in the NSW indexes.
I understand that others may not agree with me, but I disagree that the information for many people cannot be found elsewhere, I have found it for many of the people I have researched without access to their marriage certificate.
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They may be scuppered/confused if researching what's available online as my marriage will not appear on the Scottish records system as I was married abroad i.e. may cause a dilemma/curiosity as to why I'm not on SP marriages ;D
Annie
hehehehe - I've been married twice - in 2 different Australian states. Those trying to find my birth from any death notices/memorial inscriptions could have problems - well at least I hope they do. Like to leave the odd puzzle for someone to discuss online. ;D
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I read the Opening Post as though Andcarred is referring to New South Wales BDM restrictions for accessing their marriage registrations. I doubt there's many ways to determine my maiden name without accessing NSW BDM records.
JM
You must have a limited internet presence. ......
Nope, My commercial business has been (as early as 1991) and continues to be quite active and has a full internet presence.
I actually wrote :....
I read the Opening Post as though Andcarred is referring to New South Wales BDM restrictions for accessing their marriage registrations. I doubt there's many ways to determine my maiden name without accessing NSW BDM records. I have tried, so too have my elderly rellies, including retired clergy, retired Archivist, retired senior officers from NSW BDM and we have challenged the younger set to finding us online.... they have not yet succeeded, despite being given clues like:
Try Trove, try Ancestry, try Find My Past, try NSW state library, try online indexes. none of my generation or those two generations still living, and older than me ... have facebook or similar. The younger set know NOT to share info about us, no photos, no identifying words...
....
JM
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Slightly off-topic - it will be tricky for genealogists in the future to track down some registrations, particularly marriages, with so many 'destination weddings'. We have attended family weddings on a Greek island and in Fiji.
I think, at times, we are a bit too precious as to privacy, especially regarding information which is already in the public domain such as on TROVE or other public sites.
Judith
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:)
By a quick check of the NSW BDM online website and the marriages index, I note there seems to be at least 38,000 reference numbers allocated to marriages registered in 1967. (last year that I can use for a full year's check at present, using the YES option,Search by number only). Now, how likely is it that there's anywhere near that many NSW marriages for that year in the SMH or any other newspaper covering NSW....
JM
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Slightly off-topic - it will be tricky for genealogists in the future to track down some registrations, particularly marriages, with so many 'destination weddings'. We have attended family weddings on a Greek island and in Fiji.
...
[Editted] If it was only a celebrant ceremony, unless they civil registered the marriage in the foreign country, wouldn't they still have to register the marriage in their state or territory on return?
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There is an interesting scene in the film The Day Of The Jackal (1973), where the main character (The Jackal), an assassin, walks around a cemetery to find a grave of a person born around the same year as himself, but who died as a young boy. He then goes to the civil registry (likely the General Register Office for England and Wales) for the boy's details (presumably a birth or death certificate) and assumes that person's identity while moving around to conduct the next hit.
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Voltaire's film scenario is precisely one of the reasons for the 100 year closure on birth records in Oz. To stop identity fraud.
Dawn M
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I am quite happy with the way we do things in the UK, particularly Scotland, but just to keep the pot boiling can I just point out that it's not always the obvious suspects who abuse the system:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/22/police-must-reveal-dead-childrens-identities-stolen-parents
Imber
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Slightly off-topic - it will be tricky for genealogists in the future to track down some registrations, particularly marriages, with so many 'destination weddings'. We have attended family weddings on a Greek island and in Fiji.
...
[Editted] If it was only a celebrant ceremony, unless they civil registered the marriage in the foreign country, wouldn't they still have to register the marriage in their state or territory on return?
Nope, many ceremonies conducted in Australia have no formal religious ceremony within the civil service, and in NSW it has been possible for 'registry office' marriages to happen since the NSW Registrar General's Office was established in the mid 1850s. I am confident that if the couple marrying overseas would have been eligible to marry each other in Australia, then that overseas marriage would not need to be registered in Australia for it to be recognised in Australia, I understand that the Family Court system has recognised many overseas marriages when dealing with Divorce ( :) cannot actually proceed with a divorce until the court has proof of marriage - Orders can of course be made in respect of other aspects of the separation, particularly in respect to the children).
Here's some legislation :) that may be of interest.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/robdama1899n17429.pdf
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/ma1934n1192.pdf
The Commonwealth (federal parliament) harmonised the various states Acts into the 1961 Act.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ma196185/
The 2017 Commonwealth Marriage Act
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2017A00129
NSW has recently harmonised the laws to reflect the recent changes to the federal Marriage Act.
If you need more info, please let me know and I will ask some rellies (retired NSW BDM senior officers) if there's a formal registry within NSW BDM regulations etc for overseas marriages. I know there's no such registry for interstate marriages, each jurisdiction has their own statute registration process.
ADD
:)
Also see my earlier replies (#10 and #15)
:)
JM
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https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/marriages-and-relationships/overseas-marriages
While you can't register an overseas marriage in Australia, in most cases, the marriage will be legally recognised in Australia if it's legally recognised in the country you married in
and
Recognition of overseas marriages
While a marriage that takes place overseas can't be registered in Australia, it will generally be recognised if:
It's recognised under the law of the country where the marriage took place
Both parties are at least 18 years of age
Neither party is married to another person at the time of marriage.
Recognised marriages include overseas same-sex marriages that occurred prior to December 2017.
If you married overseas, you need to:
Make sure your marriage is registered in that country
Have evidence of the marriage, including official, commemorative or keepsake documents you got at the time of the ceremony.
Google can be helpful :D
ADD
https://www.ag.gov.au/FamiliesAndMarriage/Marriage/Pages/Getting-married.aspx
JM
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I was married to an Egyptian and divorced in Egypt. He never came to Australia.
Last year, I applied for an Australian Widows Allowance based on the Egyptian marriage/divorce and it was granted. All I needed was to have the divorce document translated into English.
Australia does not recognise marriages if you are to be the second wife in a Muslim household, as stated by Australian Embassy in Cairo.
Married a Scot in NZ, mid 1980s, Centrelink provided for him and divorced in Australia.
Jamjar
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Re: 50 year closure, I was adopted and raised knowing who my real parents were. I always thought they were married in Victoria. One day I was searching for ancestor marriages on NSWBDM and up popped my parents’ marriage in the 50s. You can imagine my surprise and delight. Although I knew everything about my father’s side, I knew nothing of my mother’s. I purchased the certificate and have now completed her ancestry back to Wales early 1800s.
Jamjar
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I read the Opening Post as though Andcarred is referring to New South Wales BDM restrictions for accessing their marriage registrations. I doubt there's many ways to determine my maiden name without accessing NSW BDM records. I have tried, so too have my elderly rellies, including retired clergy, retired Archivist, retired senior officers from NSW BDM and we have challenged the younger set to finding us online.... they have not yet succeeded, despite being given clues like:
Typing something in red doesn't make it any easier or clearer to read. As I said - your people have limited internet exposure. If they don't want to be found online - that is to their benefit.
I do not take kindly to be yelled at on an internet forum & this red type is the same as writing in all caps. Please do not reply to me in this fashion.
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Westward,
There's many opportunities to advance sensible discussions here on the Australia Board and elsewhere at RChat, and I approach each opportunity with good will, as I assume you and everyone else does. To me, it is important when contracting a post for the purposes of quoting a fellow RChatter, that the extracted quote does NOT mis-represent the original quote. I expressed my concern that you were mis-quoting me, by highlighting it in red and underlining it. If you feel this is the same same shouting at you, then that's your interpretation. I know my intent was to emphasise it. If that is not complying with your standards then I suggest you use the R2M button and actively involve a Global Moderator.
You did not actually write or infer that I and.or my rellies had limited internet exposure. You wrote :
I read the Opening Post as though Andcarred is referring to New South Wales BDM restrictions for accessing their marriage registrations. I doubt there's many ways to determine my maiden name without accessing NSW BDM records.
JM
You must have a limited internet presence. My mother's maiden name and my maiden name are online with the SMH notice of my birth. Very easy to find. My marriage notice can also be found in the NSWSL and the NLA SMH images. My mothers maiden and married name is on her memorial inscription and on the funeral notice which can be found in local newspapers (index on the Ryerson Index). My married name is on that funeral notice, so not difficult to determine my maiden name from said notice. Her maiden name is also in archive records related to her profession before marriage. My husband and his siblings can be found in the Qld archives school records.
I didn't know it was compulsory on this website to discuss only the exact item as mentioned by the OP. As I demonstrate above, there are many ways to find out a person's maiden name without reference to the NSW BDM records. Consequently I don't have a problem with finding my marriage in the NSW indexes.
I understand that others may not agree with me, but I disagree that the information for many people cannot be found elsewhere, I have found it for many of the people I have researched without access to their marriage certificate.
and
I read the Opening Post as though Andcarred is referring to New South Wales BDM restrictions for accessing their marriage registrations. I doubt there's many ways to determine my maiden name without accessing NSW BDM records. I have tried, so too have my elderly rellies, including retired clergy, retired Archivist, retired senior officers from NSW BDM and we have challenged the younger set to finding us online.... they have not yet succeeded, despite being given clues like:
Typing something in red doesn't make it any easier or clearer to read. As I said - your people have limited internet exposure. If they don't want to be found online - that is to their benefit.
I do not take kindly to be yelled at on an internet forum & this red type is the same as writing in all caps. Please do not reply to me in this fashion.
It is fine to disagree, but it is also fine to acknowledge when those of a contra-view provide relevant information to support their view and that information is such that it can be substantiated with independent sources cited in the post.
JM edited for some grammar, spelling.
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May we please return to the topic
Hi All,
Is anyone else concerned about the 50 year closure on Marriages. I personally do not think it is long enough. My marriage details have now appeared on the NSW BDM site and while this does not particularly worry me I know there are some of my friends who married around the same time who are quite concerned that this information has been made public.
It is quite common now for couples to celebrate their 60th wedding anniversaries so I query whether a 50 year closure period is satisfactory. What do other RootChat members think?
Andcarred
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Hi
I was married in the ACT in the 1960's. ACT historical marriages are from 1930-1941. If I wanted to get a copy of my marriage I would have to pay a hefty fee and provide proof of identity.
Maybe the state registries are a little generous with their information.
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Hi All,
I did ask for opinions and thank everyone. One unexpected outcome of the NSW 50 year closure has been that if you apply for a passport the passport office will no longer accept the copy of the Marriage Certificate given to the bride and groom by the Minister at the Church. It is now necessary to pay the fee and produce all the identity documents to get a copy of the Registered Marriage Certificate.
I don't know if the Privacy Laws have ever been tested as far as a Certificate posted on Ancestry is concerned. I think it would be against the Australian privacy laws to copy someone else's certificate from Ancestry if it is within the closure period, also illegal to have posted in the first place. Does anyone ever read the privacy statements on the bottom of certificates? Doesn't seem like it. I am sure that is why Ancestry is so willing to remove copies when asked. The question is complicated, starting with the fact Ancestry is an American company operating worldwide so what country's laws apply. Copyright laws are also a minefield. All too complicated for a "little old lady" doing her family tree.
Cheers,
Andcarred
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When my wife and I went to apply for our passports in 2009, we had to get the full BDM copy of our marriage certificate.
Also, just to add to the fun ::) we had to get a full copy of my wifes birth certificate, as her parents had never applied for it at birth.
As we are coming up to our 49th anniversary, we will have to have a look out next year for the release of the information. :-\
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:) I think I needed the NSW BDM certified copy of our marriage registration when we went for our passports too. I think it was for proof of my name change. I know it was not needed for my husband's passport.
:)
JM
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majm, I think you are right about the name change. I cannot remember the details, as it was ten years ago :o
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Hi JM,
I got my first passport in 1987 and I just needed the copy of my Marriage Certificate from the Church. When I went back in 1997 I had to have a certified copy. There used to be some old law that said if a woman was married she had to have her husband's written permission to leave the county. I think Women's Lib took care of that one.
Andcarred
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;D yes, apparently so. Once upon a time a wife needed her husband's permission to go under the knife .... but if she was single, she could sign the authority all by herself.
So, if the restrictions were lifted, ie anyone could buy a certified copy of a NSW BDM marriage registration for any marriage in NSW (give the clergy/celebrant say one month to get the paperwork uploaded etc and matched up to the Intention to Marry papers) ... ) then what will happen from an administrative position .... well perhaps very little will change initially. But the information on the m.c. will no longer be 'secure' or 'sensitive' or 'private' and so cannot be relied on as part of any proof of identity.
This lack of security has a flow on, for NSW BDM marriages include information that is found on birth certificates and other secure documentation.... That puts at risk those other secure systems.
Back in the 19th Century, after the commencement of civil registration, if you wanted to obtain info about a marriage, you basically needed to know where it was recorded - so which deputy registrar had received the paperwork from the clergyman or had conducted a marriage directly... There was a 40 plus years dispute between the Churches and the Colonial Government, and not much information was actually sent through to the Registrar General's Office in Sydney .... so the law was 'obeyed' in principle, but not in content ... summary info only sent through (so about as scant as say English certs were, sometimes not even that much/little).
Just before WWI, the government provided extra funding and the Reg Gen's staff started to 'reconcile' the church registers with their own humble set of records.... and they got through many of the Sydney registers for most of the denominations.... BUT the clerks in the BDM were also needed once WWI commenced. They were able to handle the paperwork for Base Records and thus allow the trained Army Officers to train others for front line overseas work.... So the reconcilation process on NSW marriage registers has NOT EVER been completed. (Several attempts at securing funding have occurred, but only minor reconciliations have occurred).
But until around 2005, the family history buffs who moved over from manual record charting to using CDS and some new software etc systems, needed to rely on indexes that had not been prepared until the mid 1930s, by teams of volunteers (SAG etc) who basically gave the NSW BDM actual INDEX systems ... cross matched, etc. Until then, they were working with by hand thumbing through each volume until they found what they wanted, where they remembered it may well be.... (yes, I kid you not)....
So until around 2005 we family history buffs had graduated from pen and paper to CD look ups and handwriting our results and then putting info into software thingys....
Now the Digger CDs etc are obsolete .... the domestic Reader and microfishe are long gone, and we can look up the Ryerson index and the SMH or other newspapers online and proceed ....
But the restrictions on members of the general public to the BDMs at NSW BDM continue .... once upon a time, marriages were on 60 years restrictions, but now it is 50 years. It was only 60 years because no one had updated the indexes for general publication purposes ... :D
I know that there's many an overseas government that considers the New Zealand and the Australian passport systems as being among the most reliable for security of the information bases upon which they rely. I know that there's a huge difference between how Australian government agencies view securing the privacy of the individual and how perhaps some of the European governments handle those responsibilities covered under the United Nations treaties.
I see no reason to snip/copy/download and thus perhaps encroach or infringe the T&C of websites where there may be copies of Australian documentation that is likely still within restricted access time frames... Just because someone else is infringing a privacy law/regulation (or any law) doesn't mean I should follow suit. :) But it also doesn't mean I need to 'dob'. :D
For those who don't like reading long posts, ... well, you have reached the end of this one. :D
JM
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Westward,
There's many opportunities to advance sensible discussions here on the Australia Board and elsewhere at RChat, and I approach each opportunity with good will,
I have limited the quote to the first few lines, to save space. That you replied with a page of information most of which came from other posts, suggesting I was amiss with my posting makes me assume you do not accept that posters might disagree with your point of view. Repeating something does not change what it says.
On the Topic of releasing certificate information:
I was married over 50 years ago. Many details of this marriage are online both within and without the NSW BDM registry. As far as privacy is concerned this worries me much less than the government wanting to keep all my details and medical records in a large data base from now until 30 years after I die.
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Hi JM,
I got my first passport in 1987 and I just needed the copy of my Marriage Certificate from the Church. When I went back in 1997 I had to have a certified copy. There used to be some old law that said if a woman was married she had to have her husband's written permission to leave the county. I think Women's Lib took care of that one.
Andcarred
To get a passport (1970s) I needed 2 marriage certificates a divorce certificate and a birth certificate. My husband needed a birth certificate. I now understand why women choose to retain their birth name after marriage. :)
The Qld certificate I had from the celebrant was not acceptable, but in the 1970s I simply had to go to the registry, state who I was and purchase my certificate. To the best of my memory I didn't have to show any ID! (times have changed)
And it wasn't only women who had to get their partner's permission to leave the country. When my ex and I were separated, but not divorced, I had to sign papers giving him permission to leave the country. He needed this to get a passport. I don't know if this is still the case today as we have got our more recent passports at the same time.
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Hi Westward, and everyone following Andcarred's thread :)
I cannot fathom why anyone would think that by my quoting earlier posts, that I am somehow not accepting that there are other view points, either on this thread or on any thread across RChat's many boards.
So, Westward, among your recent posts, you wrote directly to me:
That you replied with a page of information most of which came from other posts, suggesting I was amiss with my posting makes me assume you do not accept that posters might disagree with your point of view. Repeating something does not change what it says.
I agree Westward, that repeating something does not change what it says, and I note that by quoting from earlier posts I am simply drawing attention to the matter under immediate consideration. I am not the only RChatter who uses the quote option kindly provided by RChat's owners.
I wonder why you needed to provide the NSW BDM’s 1960s marriage registration, and the Divorce papers when applying for your passport in the 1970s. Surely all you needed was your birth certificate and your then current marriage certificate? I believe the Qld marriage registrations include the bride’s maiden name, and the name of her parent/s including maiden name for mum, and in your instance surely the status would read divorcee ... I believe Qld bdm marriage registrations are very informative and have been so for many decades, back even before WWI.
I am very confident that if you were to seek an Australian passport today, you would not need to provide the NSW marriage registration or the Divorce papers as part of the proving process. Your birth cert and your Qld marriage cert give all the details needed for the application to proceed. Back in the 1970s you would likely have been asked, at least verbally for your date of birth and your mum’s name when seeking your birth certificate. Similarly back in the 1970s you would have been asked, at least verbally, for date of marriage and your then name, when seeking your Qld marriage certificate. The BDM officer was able to verify your information against the information recorded on their registration of your Qld marriage in a discreet way without accessing the computer image readily available today. Different technology, but same principles in the process.
I am sure that apart from yourself on that NSW 1960s marriage registration that is available for purchase by any member of the general public, that there are others identified on it who may well be still alive. You and I both know that Australia has strict privacy laws/regulations/practices. I see no reason to make these less restrictive, and I believe they apply to all the various government agencies, so I am sure that you and I are not the only ones concerned about the megdata issues. If you were to start a thread for a discussion on that in respect to family history, I suggest I may well support your viewpoint.
I know that my next door neighbours’ NSW marriage registration is indexed online. 1966, and I know both sets of their parents are still living (born 1919 to 1925). It is entirely possible, perhaps likely that their official witnesses may well be still living too. So that’s four people (parents of the bride and groom) who many would consider, through age, as becoming vulnerable, and at least two, but possibly up to four people (bride, groom, witnesses) who are approaching an age when they too are becoming vulnerable (baby boomers from WWII). Moving the NSW restriction to access towards the Queensland limit (75 years) may well be the option that protects those older living members of our Australian communities.
JM