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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: beatrice834 on Friday 31 August 18 20:51 BST (UK)
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I would be grateful if anyone could decipher the name of this owner of a Victorian sketchbook dated September 1850.
Many thanks.
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Caitlin?
And if that is correct then surname possibly starts
Calli.........
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Pipped at the post again. ;D
I was just going to suggest Caitlin.
Also Calli...
Possibly Callin...
I wondered about Collingwood, but I don't think the long letter in the middle is a "g", and the second letter looks more like an "a" than an "o"...
The end of the surname looks very "vague" - barely more than a squiggle. It could be all manner of things. ???
Best regards,
Karen
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I’m going through CALLI* Scotland’s people. There are far more Calli.... surnames than I imagined.
How about CALLINGHAM. Although that last flourish almost looks like a Q!
Modified, no, not enough up strokes
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Where was the book obtained, may help to identify someone on 1851 census?
Annie
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Where was the book obtained, may help to identify someone on 1851 census?
Annie
That would be a good idea.
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Although it does look like Caitlin , I thought that was a more modern name. Not one I'd associate with 1850s.
Looby :)
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I originally thought Caitlin but like Looby wondered if it was too modern. However, although it is in common usage today its origins were probably in the past. I believe it is Irish.
May I ask what the sketchbook contains, and whereabouts this signature is situated? Front page? Back page? Below a specific drawing? If so, what is that drawing of?
Are all sketches signed the same way? If so can you post more?
Sorry for so many questions, however I think this is a man's handwriting, so am trying to work out if 'Caitlin' might be the sitter (if this is a portrait). Alternatively, it may be a place name.
Where was the sketch book found? Eg it is a family relic and your family originated in Ireland? It was found at a car boot sale in Essex? Context may help. :)
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Could it be Carlton Callingwood?
Just throwing another name in ;D
Looby
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I can't make up my mind as to whether the last letter of the surname is in fact a letter or a flourish like what looks like a 'B' at the end of 1850 :-\
Annie
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Could it be Carlton Callingwood?
Just throwing another name in ;D
Looby
My first impression was Carlton Collingwood, with the cross for the t going through the L in the first name.
Then I saw the posts about the first name being Caitlin, so I got too indecisive to post, so I'm glad to see I'm not the only one reading it as Carlton!
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The horizontal stroke in the first word looks just like the horizontal stroke in the t of September
so i don't like Carlton.
Am willing to concede Caitlin is a more modern name, but I think it is a derivative of Catherine and anyone named Catherine might have been called Caitlin even though that was not their baptismal name.
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Is there any other writing in the same hand in the sketch book, so we can compare letter formation?
I still think this is a man's writing, though he may have been writing someone else's name.
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I originally thought Carlton, too!
But as Mckha wrote, the "t" in September also changed my mind.
I was also under the impression that Caitlin was a newish name, but found this on the Web:
Etymology & Historical Origin - Caitlin
Caitlín is the Irish equivalent of Catherine and is generally pronounced “cotch-leen” (at least in the Gaelic tongue). The name was brought to the British Isles in the Middle Ages by way of the Norman French name Cateline. The Catherine family of names all derived from the Greek “Aikaterinë” (see Catherine) which translates to “pure one, clear, innocent.”
The more I look at the image, the less certain I am about it. At times I think it looks like the same name written twice, but without the horizontal stroke in the second one, and with a weird squiggle added to the end... ???
Hmmm...
Karen
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Perhaps if the books origins are Irish then it could be Caitlin :-[
It's certainly a name I'd associate with Ireland at that time.
Just don't know if it would be common elsewhere - although obviously today it's usage is widespread.
(I love the name, incidentally, and considered it when I was expecting my first baby - but I had a boy!)
Looby :)
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Caitlin/en was also a surname, so this could be a double barreled name, rather than a first name and surname.
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Caitlin Carlinford
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Caitlin Carlinford
Good call but...
3rd letter of surname looks like an 'L'?
Maybe Callinford?
Annie
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There are only 4 Caitlins (with that spelling) in England in the 1851 census ... none of the surnames look like Car/l......etc
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Equally, there's a family of Callinfords in Suffolk/Norfolk 1861 none named Caitlin/Catherine or similar
Annie
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Lots all over England 1841/1851 with surname variants, not found a Caitlin or similar & need to go out now, hopefully someone will find something?
Annie
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Assuming it's the signature of the owner of the book, a signature which has become more scrawly over the years (as they often do), my money's on Carlton Collingwood.
There were a few of them about at that time.
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I'm hoping that the OP will return soon to give us some background to the sketchbook. :)
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Thank you all so much for taking time to have a go at puzzling this out. I hoped there might be a couple of responses, but never so many! The book belongs to a family member and I don't have it with me. We know nothing of its provenance. I remember there is only one watercolour, of Gibraltar seen from a named boat, and a pencil sketch of an unnamed village, the rest of the pages are blank. I will make contact to get a photo of the written title of the watercolour with boat name, and post it here - I think it was dated 1853.
Again thanks for your helpful suggestions.
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Can you also ask your family member where they found the book. It might give a clue as to where the person lived so we can try to locate him in the censuses.
Rootschatters love these kinds of puzzles so I'm not surprised so many have joined in to try to help you. :)
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Catherine Williams to me :-\
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The more I look, the less I see ::)
If this is a name rather than a place name :-\ I can only see 1 'dotted i'
The writing seems to be continual, no definite spacing i.e. is it a name & surname or a place name & dated when sketched :-\
Annie
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Once again, thanks for your interest. I am attaching the title of the two-page watercolour of Gibraltar, sent to me this afternoon. Is it by the same hand? I had not looked closely at the title before but am sure now that it refers to RN ship "Indus", so maybe the artist was on board and was a naval man?
The book was bought this year from a charity shop in Surrey - no Gift Aid label which might have led to the donor.
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Going by the "Sep", I'd say it was the same hand.
And looking at the "br" in Gibraltar (as well as the - if that's what it is! - "HMS" before "Indus"), the signature or whatever it is could have us guessing for a long while..! ;D
Karen
Edited:
Oops. :-\ There's a "not" missing...
Please read:
Going by the "Sep", I'd say it was NOT the same hand.
(The "Sep" is the only bit which is in both examples, and they are definitely very different.)
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Going by the "Sep", I'd say it was the same hand.
And looking at the "br" in Gibraltar (as well as the - if that's what it is! - "HMS" before "Indus"), the signature or whatever it is could have us guessing for a long while..! ;D
Karen
I don't think thats HMS I think it's 'from' but you are right. It's impossible!
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Maybe it's the following ship (snippet taken from the Aberdeen Herald and General Advertiser 17 September 1853):
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I'm not convinced it's 53, to me it looks like 58 but it also looks as if it's a '£' sign before the year :-\
I wonder if there are crew lists for 'Indus'?
Annie
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Gibraltar
from "Indus"
28 Sep * 58
* this does look like a £ as suggested by Annie, though it would make more sense if it was an abbreviation related to a date (presumably 1858) unless the artist was trying to sell the painting. :-\ £58 is far too much to charge for an amateur work in the 1850s I would think.
Presumably the artist was on board the Indus when they did the painting. He could have been crew or a passenger.
I can see virtually no similarities in the two examples of writing, and would say they are definitely written by different people.
You say this is a two page watercolour? Is it loose within the book or attached at the spine? I am asking in case this watercolour was just put into the book for safe keeping and may not relate to the owner of the book. :-\ Can I confirm that the rest of the pages in the book are blank?
Surrey may be a clue - you wouldn't expect something like that to travel too far. Though the book is very interesting it's monetary (and possibly sentimental) value is low.
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I've copied & enhanced the last image & what I think is £58 looks to have been written separately (at a later date) from the original writing i.e. it's very difficult to determine any facts other than the ship name (Indus) & place name (Gibraltar) :-\
Annie
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I don't think thats HMS I think it's 'from' but you are right. It's impossible!
I would agree, it looks like 'from' i.e. passing by
Annie
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Just a thought but...
My Reply #33, the person who bought it may have added the price paid at the time of purchase?
This may have been many yrs later?
The colour of the ink is different :-\
Annie
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I can see virtually no similarities in the two examples of writing, and would say they are definitely written by different people.
I agree!
I've amended my comment above.
That's what happens when you hurry and don't check things..! ::)
As I have written above, the "Sep" is the only bit which is in both text samples - and is completely different.
I'll try to be more careful in future. :)
Karen
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Just a thought but...
My Reply #33, the person who bought it may have added the price paid at the time of purchase?
This may have been many yrs later?
The colour of the ink is different :-\
Annie
The colour/shading of the paper is different at that part of the paper too - looks like light reflection? This could make the ink shade differ. Another thought- perhaps the ink was running low on the nib ;D
To be honest , although I see where you have spotted a potential £ sign , I'm not convinced . To me it looks like 28 Sep - 58
I think the light line through the - is either a small flaw on the paper or maybe an accidental scratch of the pen :-\
According to a UK inflation calculator online, £58 would be in the equivalant of £7000 circa 1850/60.
Granted the "price" could have been added later - but why would you add it directly next to the date (with no year).
Looby :)
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To be honest , although I see where you have spotted a potential £ sign , I'm not convinced . To me it looks like 28 Sep - 58
I agree. :)
However, I do think the "58" is from (yet) another hand. If the first number is indeed "28", then the "8" is written very differently.
If the "28" is not that but "25", then again, the "5" is very different.
Whatever - I think the "58" has definitely been added by someone else.
I keep going back to the original photo (with the signature or whatever it is) and it's driving me mad. :P :o Woods & trees, 'n all that. It would be wonderful if we could get to the bottom of this one. :D
Karen
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Again, thanks to you all for the thoughtful responses, and thanks especially to bbart for the relevant Indus timetable. The watercolour of Gibraltar from the boat is firmly part of the sketchbook. I think the watercolour title is by another hand and that it is dated 28 September 1858. Would a naval man have the leisure time to sketch and paint on board Indus? Was the book was given by a family member to Mr X the naval man, and the donor carefully wrote X's name on the first page but X then did only one watercolour which he dated?
I am heartened that so many other researchers share my fascination with the puzzles of genealogy!
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I expect that a naval man would have had some leisure time.
What I think unusual is that the sketch book is blank apart from one watercolour. I think paper was a valuable commodity in those days. People used to write on top of other writing to save paper. This makes me wonder if this was a wealthy family. I am sure that many naval people could write, but some could not, so if a naval person owned this, he was probably an officer of some sort. The name in your first post is written in a very confident hand.
Your theory is plausible though I am not sure that an adult would write the name of another adult into a sketch book before gifting it to him. You never know though. :)