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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: Forfarian on Saturday 01 September 18 11:11 BST (UK)
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I have information to suggest that James Leslie, son of James Leslie (born 1754) and grandson of Alexander Leslie of Balnageith (which is in Forres, Moray) and his wife Anne Duff, was the James Leslie who married Mary Culbard, daughter of Alexander Culbard, tanner and leather merchant, and his wife Margaret Murdoch.
This marriage is recorded in Elgin, Moray, in 1816.
In 1841 Mary Leslie, 50 and Margaret Leslie, 20, were living with Alexander Culbard, 80, in Elgin. In 1851 the widowed Mary Culbard or Leslie, aged 61, was living in Elgin with her widowed father, who was 92. In 1871 Mary Culbard or Leslie, aged 81, was living with her widowed daughter Margaret Leslie or Michie, aged 52, born St Michaels, Cornwall.
Margaret Leslie married Alexander Michie, surgeon, in Elgin in 1846. He died in Elgin in 1859.
Mary Culbard or Leslie died in Elgin on 5 June 1879, and an item in the Moray Weekly News of 14 June 1879 describes her as the widow of James Leslie, fruit merchant, St Michaels.
Margaret Leslie or Michie died in Elgin on 12 December 1894, and an item in the Elgin Courant describes her as the daughter of James Leslie, fruit grower.
I am intrigued to know why someone from Moray would turn to fruit growing in Cornwall, which is as far as you cen get from Moray and still be in Britain. When did he go to Cornwall? How long did he live there? What did he grow? Did he die in Cornwall, and if so where and when, and at what age?
Can anyone suggest how I might learn more about James Leslie's life and activities in Cornwall? I have looked at FamilySearch and FindMyPast and found nothing useful.
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Have you tried the Cornish OPC - http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database
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I have now, thank you, but found nothing.
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Hello
Daughter's birth place given as the Azores. James Leslie I think is fruit merchant at one time based in St Michael's Parish, Azores, not Cornwall.
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The Azores? Good heavens, and thank you. No wonder I found nothing in Cornwall!
I have re-checked the original of the 1871 census, and it does say St Michael's, Cornwall, but 'Cornwall' looks as if it has been squeezed in by someone with different handwriting.
In 1861 the original just says St Michaels.
However the 1851 original does say Azores BS.
I now have conflicting information that says that this James Leslie was a son of Alexander Leslie and Isobel Adam, and grandson of John Leslie and Agnes Collie.
Back to the drawing board.
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My wife is descended from Alexander Leslie of Balnageith and his wife Isabelle Adam. Isabelle Adam's brothers set up a citrus fruit importing business working out of the Azores and Lisbon importing into Liverpool. They started off their business in London.
Their son James Leslie m to Mary Culbard in 1816 was buried at sea in the Bay of Biscay in 1830. He worked out of the Azores. My wife's direct ancestor is his brother William who also worked in the Azores and his 2 eldest children were born there before he moved on to Warrington and then the family moved to Manchester.
Investigation has shown that the fruit crop in the Azores was decimated in the 1820s? hence the change in life circumstances of William Leslie.
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My wife is descended from Alexander Leslie of Balnageith and his wife Isabelle Adam. Isabelle Adam's brothers set up a citrus fruit importing business working out of the Azores and Lisbon importing into Liverpool. They started off their business in London.
Their son James Leslie m to Mary Culbard in 1816 was buried at sea in the Bay of Biscay in 1830. He worked out of the Azores. My wife's direct ancestor is his brother William who also worked in the Azores and his 2 eldest children were born there before he moved on to Warrington and then the family moved to Manchester.
Investigation has shown that the fruit crop in the Azores was decimated in the 1820s? hence the change in life circumstances of William Leslie.
Wow! That's quite a story. But I think a little work will be needed to reconcile what I have with that.
The Alexander Leslie of Balnageith I know about was the son of William Leslie of Balnageith, and was born in 1724. July 27, 1724.William Leslie of Bannageith had a child baptised named Alexander. Witnesses Alexander Grant of Conrack and Alexander Gellie minister at Fordyce. [Rothes Parish Register] His mother was Margaret Gellie.
He married Anne Duff, daughter of John Duff of Thomshill and Margaret Gordon of Farskane. They had ten of a family. Their eldest son was William Leslie. 1748, September 11th. William lawful son to Alexander Leslie of Balnageith in Burncrooks and Mrs Anne Duff his spouse was baptized. Witness Mr James Gray minister. [Rothes Parish Register] This William Leslie was the minister of St Andrews-Lhanbryd from 1779 until his death in 1839.
The seventh child of Alexander Leslie of Balnageith and Anne Duff was Alexander. 1756. July 9th. Alexander lawful son to Alexander Leslie of Balnageith in Burncrooks was baptized by Mr Thomas Gray Minister at Dundurcas. Witnesses Mrs Margaret Gordon at Old Milns near Elgin and Mrs Margaret Gellie in the Upper-Glen [Rothes Parish Register]
Isobel/Isabella Adam married Alexander Leslie, in 1787. 1787, March 3. Alexr Leslie in Drainy and Isabella Adam in Spynie were matrimonially contracted and marrd. [Drainie Parish Register]. They had four sons and a daughter, including John, merchant in Elgin, James who married Mary Culbard and William who lived latterly in Warrington.
So far, so good.
However it is not clear (to me, at least), whether Alexander Leslie, husband of Isobel Adam, was the son of Alexander Leslie of Balnageith or the son of John Leslie of Shempston. April 27th, 1760. Alexander lawful son to John Lessly and Agnes Collie in Shempstone was baptised said day. Witnesses Alexander Collie in Inch..., Jean Innes in Causie and Mary Young in Crookmire. [Duffus Parish Register]
Noting that the eldest son of Alexander Leslie and Isobel Adam was named John, and that one of the witnesses at John's baptism was John Leslie In Shempstown 1788, Jany 11. Alexander Leslie in Westerfolds had his lawful son by Isobel Adam born 4th currt baptized and named John. Witnesses John Leslie in Shemstown and John Adam in Westfield. [Drainie Parish Register] it seems reasonable to suppose that Alexander's father was John Leslie, not Alexander Leslie of Balnageith. But it's perfectly possible that it was Alexander Leslie of Balnageith.
I have yet to see, and would be extremely interested in seeing, any primary evidence to prove either that Alexander Leslie, husband of Isobel Adam, was the son of Alexander Leslie of Balnageith or that he was the son of John Leslie of Shempston and Agnes Collie.
Naturally I do not trust anything I find online unless it is an image of an original document (and even then I am wary), but I have seen a tree that suggests that William Leslie of Balnageith, grandfather of the Reverend William, was the son of John Leslie and Margaret Innes of Burncrooks. His putative date of birth is 1690, but I have not found a baptism.
I have also seen it suggested that John Leslie of Shempston was a son of Alexander Leslie and Margaret Innes. November 28th, 1729. John Leslie lawful son to Alexander Leslie and Margaret Innes in Crossmoor was baptised. Witnesses John Leslie there, John Forsyth in C..., Margaret Kessack and Elspet James. [Duffus Parish Register]
This is plainly not the same Margaret Innes because (a) her husband is Alexander, not John and (b) there is a gap of 39 years between the putative date of birth of William Leslie of Balnageith and that of John Leslie in Crossmoor, even assuming that he is the later John Leslie of Shempston.
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We think that he is the son of John Leslie of Shempston and Agnes Collie. For their first child the first named witness is John Leslie of Shempston with Isabelle Adam's father being the 2nd. The first child is also named John and they seem to have been very traditional in naming the first boy after his grandfather. Our direct descendent is the youngest son William. The witnesses at his christening are W Leslie of Shempston, W Allan of Plowland and Penelope Wilet Vickery (wife of James Adam ). The witnesses do not seem to have a connection to the Alexander Leslie and Anne Duff family.
How are you descended from the Leslies?
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So not from Alexander Leslie of Balnageith then?
I am descended from Robert Leslie (d 1720) and Janet Robb (d 1723) in Rothes, which is where the Balnageith family actually lived, even though Balnageith is in Forres. However I have not been able to make the connection between my Leslies and the Balnageith family. I don't think I am related to the Shempston/Westerfolds family either.
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I just wanted to wish you luck with your future research. As you get further back in time it is extremely difficult.
Have you tried the Moray Burial Ground web site?
Sorry I can't be of more help.
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Thanks. As I live almost on the spot, I have the best chance of finding that elusive snippet of information! Yes, I know the MBRG, some of them personally.
Best of luck with yours also.
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Hi, my brother pointed out this post to me. I've just picked up some information that we had about our family, and am trying to reconcile and extend. So a beginner, and new to this forum too.
This is an extract from a fairly comprehensive document that has been made available to us:
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43. JAMES29 LESLIE (ALEXANDER28, ALEXANDER27, ....) was born 09 Mar 1791 in Drainie, Parish of Spynie. Elgin Scotland., and died Abt. 1830 in Bay of Biscay. Buried at Sea.. He married MARY CULBARD 09 Sep 1816 in St Giles Church Elgin Scotland. She was born Abt. 1792 in Drainie Elgin Scotland, and died 11 Jun 1879 in Drainie Elgin Scotland.
Children of JAMES LESLIE and MARY CULBARD are:
49. i. MARGARET30 LESLIE, b. Abt. 1818, St Michaels, Azores Islands.; d. 12 Dec 1894, Elgin Scotland.
ii. ALEXANDER LESLIE, b. Abt. 1820, St Michaels Azores; d. 02 May 1832, Elgin Morayshire Scotland.
iii. MARY MADALINA LESLIE, b. Abt. 1822, St Michaels Azores; d. 07 Nov 1831, Elgin Morayshire
Scotland.
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(sorry, looks like the post doesn't cope with superscripts)
So that corresponds with what another reply said, though I haven't yet got to grips with all the extra info from the post of 12 Dec last - info which will help me!
It looks like our family line comes through James's oldest brother John.
Does that add anything useful?
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Hi DaveL, and welcome to RootsChat.
Thank you for that information. It is helpful because it pretty much matches the information I have. Except that according to the census Mary Culbard was born in Elgin, not Drainie, and her death was registered in Elgin, not Drainie.
It is helpful in particular because it seems to confirm that James Leslie was the son of Alexander Leslie and Isobel Adam, but on the other hand it seems to say that his grandfather was Alexander Leslie, whereas my chart has him as John, and that's the bit I would like to be sure about.
What is you document and where did it come from?
An extract from my chart is below. Once you have made two more posts to the forum, you can send me a Personal Message with your e-mail address and I'll send you the full chart.
1. Alexander LESLIE (b.Est 1697)
sp: Margaret INNES (b.Est 1697)
2. Jean LESLIE (b.1727-?Crocken,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
2. John LESLIE (b.1729-Crossmoor,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
sp: Agnes COLLIE (m.17 Nov 1757)
3. Alexander LESLIE (b.1760-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
sp: Isobel ADAM (m.3 Mar 1787)
4. John LESLIE (b.4 Jan 1788-Westerfolds,Drainie,MOR,SCT;d.22 Sep 1868-Crawford Place,Partick,Glasgow,LKS, SCT)
sp: Janet ADAM (b.1795/1796-,Duffus,MOR,SCT;m.23 Dec 1819;d.15 Oct 1867-Crawford Place,Partick,Glasgow,LS)
4. Alexander LESLIE (b.20 Nov 1789-Westerfolds,Drainie,MOR,SCT)
4. James LESLIE (b.9 Mar 1791-Westerfolds,Drainie,MOR,SCT;d.1823/1831-,,,SEA)
sp: Mary CULBARD (b.1788/1789-,Elgin,MOR,SCT;m.9 Sep 1816;d.11 Jun 1879-,Elgin,MOR,SCT)
4. Janet LESLIE (b.16 Apr 1793-Westerfolds,Drainie,MOR,SCT)
4. William LESLIE (b.7 Sep 1795-Westerfolds,Drainie,MOR,SCT)
sp: Margaret ATHERTON (d.1847-,Warrington,LAN,ENG)
sp: Sarah JONES (b.1823/1824-,Warrington,LAN,ENG;m.1849;d.1870-,Warrington,LAN,ENG)
sp: Margaret STRONACH (m.26 Jun 1762;d.20 Oct 1765-,Drainie,MOR,SCT)
3. John LESLIE (b.1763-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
3. James LESLIE (b.1764-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
3. Robert LESLIE (b.10 Oct 1765-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
sp: Margaret BROWN (m.1768)
3. William LESLIE (b.1768-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
3. Margaret LESLIE (b.1769-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
3. James LESLIE (b.1772-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
3. Catharine LESLIE (b.1774-,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
3. William LESLIE (b.1776-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
3. Charles LESLIE (b.1778-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
3. Margaret LESLIE (b.1780-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
3. Joseph LESLIE (b.1785-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
2. Elspet LESLIE (b.1736-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
2. Alexander LESLIE (b.1738-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
2. Margaret LESLIE (b.1741-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
2. Jean LESLIE (b.1744-Shempston,Duffus,MOR,SCT)
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Thanks for that info, which I'll look at later - first another quick post to count towards the two I'll need!
The document is headed
Descendants of George Leslie, of Drumbarrow 1st Laird Aikenway
dated 8 Sept 2007.
I'm not sure how we (my brother I think) got hold of it, but it's referenced in this link
https://electricscotland.com/webclans/minibios/l/leslie_david.htm
(ah, just noticed, it's downloadable from that link)
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Ah, yes, I see it. It looks as if at least some of it may have been taken from Colonel Leslie's The Historical Records of the Family of Leslie (1869), though some of it disagrees with the information in that book.
It says that Alexander Leslie, the son of Alexander Leslie, 3rd of Balnageith and Ann Duff, was the Alexander Leslie in Westerfolds who married Isobella Adam and became the father of your ancestor John Leslie and of James the fruit merchant.
I think there has to be some doubt about that.
Alexander Leslie and Isobella Adam's first son was named John, and John Leslie in Shempston was one of the witnesses at the baptism. There is a baptism of Alexander Leslie, son of John Leslie in Shempston, in 1760, and Shempston and Westerfolds are quite close to one another. So I would want to see some pretty convincing proof that this Alexander Leslie in Westerfolds was not the son of John Leslie in Shempston, and then further proof that he really was the son of Alexander Leslie of Balnageith.
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Hi again,
having had a look, I agree there seems to be a fair amount of doubt! I begin to realise the importance of looking at the witnesses too:)
May I also ask, have you come across this record: 26/05/1689 LESLIE, William [O.P.R. Births 130/00 0010 0067 DRAINIE]?
I can't decipher all the text (I see rootschat has a thread that offers help)
May 26 - 89 ... The said day Alexander Leslie in ...[..lio?] had his lawful son baptised named William, witnessed Thomas .... and William Man .... in ... [...fold?]
- not that I can see yet how that fits in!
I'll pm my email address now - thanks for the offer!
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and maybe I should add, we've also got Adam family info going back to the same time, dated 30 Jan 1993, again not sure where that came from.
ps: i thought I'd posted this yesterday, but I've found the tab open on my screen, please excuse if in duplicate
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May I also ask, have you come across this record: 26/05/1689 LESLIE, William [O.P.R. Births 130/00 0010 0067 DRAINIE]?
I can't decipher all the text (I see rootschat has a thread that offers help)
May 26 - 89 ... The said day Alexander Leslie in ...[..lio?] had his lawful son baptised named William, witnessed Thomas .... and William Man .... in ... [...fold?]
The said day Alexr Leslie in @lie had his lawll son baptized named William witnesses Thomas Banks weaver yr [there] and William Man weaver in @hlfold.
I used @ because the clerk has twice used abbreviations that I don't recognise.