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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: M S Harmer on Sunday 02 September 18 05:42 BST (UK)
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Looking for any marriage info on a Michael Donovan (possibly born John Michael Donovan) to a Margaret Ford. Also marriage info on possible second marriage to a Kate surname unknown.
Oral history says Michael was a publican some where in Co. Cork. I have found record of a will of a Michael Donovan (died 26 Mar. 1906) with a wife named Kate, says he was a publican from Balmeen Co Cork.
My research shows somewhere in the Queenstown area.
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What sort of era are you talking about?
There is a Michael Donovan - Margaret Forde name match here:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1872/11319/8153824.pdf
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...Oral history says Michael was a publican some where in Co. Cork. I have found record of a will of a Michael Donovan (died 26 Mar. 1906) with a wife named Kate, says he was a publican from Balmeen Co Cork.
My research shows somewhere in the Queenstown area.
Death:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05558/4559792.pdf
That would presumably read across to these folk in 1901?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Ballymoney/Ballyneen_Town/1163829/
But that Michael was recorded as a bachelor in his marriage registration:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1900/10340/5764195.pdf
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Thanks gaffy for the possible marriage info.
Census I think maybe incorrect I forgot to mention they had a son born about 1873, he ended up moving and marring (1895) in South Australia.
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Son's name was?
Is this him
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=629680.msg4776432#msg4776432
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The son John is correct but unsure about parents unless they where married abt 1871_72 and we're or bacame publicans.
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Why not just fully disclose ALL of what you know, in chronological order, so people can see who you are looking for and when etc....
Were there other children apart from the one you didn't mention?
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Is this them or not?
Party 1 Name MICHAEL DONOVAN
Party 2 Name MARGARET FORDE
Date of Event 11 August 1872
Group Registration ID 2821017
SR District/Reg Area Cork
??
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The only extra info we now is once deserting ship in Port Pirie Sth Australia about 1894 he married my g grandmother Elizabeth Ann Brooks 12 Feb 1895. He died 12 Sept 1910 aged 38. The oral history about parents being publicans and his father marring twice came from him. As far as we know he was not cathlic.
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Even searching the following produces nothing....
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Thanks Hallmark, I think the closest I'm going to get for the moment is Michael Donovan and Margaret Forde. Will need to confirm death for both. Thanks again.
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Perhaps the second wife was a Miss Ffrench rather than from France.
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May I offer the following newspaper cuttting, showing Jack DONOVAN was 38 years of age when he died in Sept 1910 in South Australia. I note he was described as an Englishman.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95241468 Port Pirie Recorder, 17 Sept 1910.
The only extra info we now is once deserting ship in Port Pirie Sth Australia about 1894 he married my g grandmother Elizabeth Ann Brooks 12 Feb 1895. He died 12 Sept 1910 aged 38. The oral history about parents being publicans and his father marring twice came from him. As far as we know he was not cathlic.
JM
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Martin, please cite the newspaper, date etc where you read about his mother as Margaret McNamara...
Does any Donovan family researcher have on their tree a John or John Michael Donovan born about 1872 that they now nothing about.
We have one who was put into a monastery as a boy or young man to become a priest, but during his time there ran away and went to sea and ended up in Australia.
We know nothing of his parents or siblings except his mother died and his father possibly remarried a french woman ?.
Father was also a spirit dealer or publican.
In addition to the above I have found his death notice in a local paper giving his parents names as Michael Donovan and Margaret McNamara if that's of any help to anyone.
JM
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I notice that Martin has been online since my recent post but he has not responded. The 1910 death was registered, but the online index does not give clues for names of his parents.
JM
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Hi majm, we only know John's fathers name from news paper artical and marriage registry.
TROVE
DONOVAN—BROOKS.—On the 12th February 1895, at Port Pirie, by the Rev. Leslie Durno, M.'A., John, son of Michael Donovan, to Elizabeth Ann, daughter of John Brooks.
South Australian Marriage Registry
DONOVAN John 23y S (father Michael DONOVAN) m 12 Feb 1895 BROOKS Elizabeth Ann 19y S (father Thomas BROOKS) at Res of Thomas Brooks Port Pirie Dist Cla b1 p500
Other info thats needs looking into;
Name Michael John Donovan
Gender Male
Christening Place CORK NO 3 NORTH CENTRE, CORK, IRE.
Birth Date 21 Jun 1873
Birthplace Cork No 3 North Centre, Cork, Ire.
Father's Name Michael Donovan
Mother's Name Margaret Ford
Margaret Donovan 24 Dec. 1897 Phthiscs Female 45yrs catholic Timoleague Queenstown Married. Buried section A, Row 11, Num. 34, Dec. 26 1987, 1291
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Are you now saying that you have not ever had the info you said you had in the following post:
......
In addition to the above I have found his death notice in a local paper giving his parents names as Michael Donovan and Margaret McNamara if that's of any help to anyone.
JM
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Re Margaret McNamara and the newspaper giving her as Jack's mum in 1910.
May I mention that a chap named Michael DONOVAN married in South Australia in 1879 to a Margaret McNamara. The online index has the following info
1879
119/930
DONOVAN Michael
MCNAMARA Margaret
(registered Adelaide District).
https://www.genealogysa.org.au/index.php?option=com_search&Itemid=32
There's births likely for that couple too :
:) 1880 DONOVAN Patrick
:) 1881 DONOVAN Mary Kate
On reading the images at Trove for the 1895 marriage, I notice that there's no mention of Michael Donovan's locality ... this suggests to me that he was a local in Port Pirie ... many other notices on same pages list localities... :)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/25750258
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208835741
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/93973068
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/73212897
Perhaps you should consider asking for the thread to be moved to the Australia board, until you have confirmed information about Michael from some official records.
JM
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Jhn Donovan was born abt 1873 Co Cork, father was Michael Donovan publicans Co Cork. Parents put him in monastery ? to be trained as a priest but ran away an became a merchant seaman, he eventually deserted ship in Pt Pirie abt 1894. A retraction of his desertion was posted in 1911 from the SS Bradford City
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Jhn Donovan was born abt 1873 Co Cork, father was Michael Donovan publicans Co Cork. Parents put him in monastery ? to be trained as a priest but ran away an became a merchant seaman, he eventually deserted ship in Pt Pirie abt 1894. A retraction of his desertion was posted in 1911 from the SS Bradford City
Very interesting Martin and without supporting info, it is speculative. You may find you need to substantiate/validate each of those statements so that your quest to find out about your Michael Donovan can be effectively helped by the many experienced RChatters.
I will ask the direct questions, I don't need an answer, but I hope it will help you confirm/validate your current research:
:) How have you eliminated the couple who married in South Australia in 1879 ... Michael Donovan and Margaret McNamara ... ? Have you obtained copy of that registration? Who were the witnesses?
:) How have you established that the lad (John, son of Michael and Margaret Donovan - she nee McNamara) who was put into a monastery in Ireland was not actually a Catholic .... assuming of course that you can already prove a) he was born in Co Cork, Ireland and b) he had been placed in a monastery ...
:) What's this about the SS Bradford City and 1911 and rescinding his desertion circa 1894ish at Port Pirie, South Australia ... from said vessel? Have you checked when that ship was actually launched and when it was first in Australian Waters ? ...
http://passengersinhistory.sa.gov.au/node/921565
JM
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=539492.0 Martin Harmer
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=516597.0 Martin Harmer
JM
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Firstly as far back as I can remember my grandmother would tell us about her father John Donovan and where he came from as well as his parents being publicans. Secondly S.A. register have records of John and Elizabeth's marriage which gives his father's name as Michael as well as their 3 daughters. John's name is on a list of deserters, which ship we are not sure of, the retraction was made by the SS Bradford City (built 1903) 1911. I also understand Irish research can be difficult due to the lack of records. Macnamara should not even get a look in.
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And don't forget that John DONOVAN was, in September 1910, noted as an Englishman.
Mr.Donovan was an Englishman by birth, had followed the sea as a vocation for some time, and a little over 20 years ago came to Port Pirie, where, except for a short while now and again, he continued to work on the wharfs, first as a labourer and then as foreman stevedore. Of late
years he had been largely employed by the Spencer Gulf Stevedoring Company.
I posted the link to the full Obit earlier in this thread.
Someone jumping ship at Port Pirie is unlikely to have continued to work on the wharves at Port Pirie ....
ADD ... here, to save anyone else scrolling back
May I offer the following newspaper cuttting, showing Jack DONOVAN was 38 years of age when he died in Sept 1910 in South Australia. I note he was described as an Englishman.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95241468 Port Pirie Recorder, 17 Sept 1910.
The only extra info we now is once deserting ship in Port Pirie Sth Australia about 1894 he married my g grandmother Elizabeth Ann Brooks 12 Feb 1895. He died 12 Sept 1910 aged 38. The oral history about parents being publicans and his father marring twice came from him. As far as we know he was not cathlic.
JM
JM
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Re John as English
13 Aug 1877, Carrie DONOVAN, admitted to Globe Road School, Town Hamlets, London, born 11 November 1871, with father as Michael DONOVAN, 6 Ernest Place
Same date of admission as Carrie, there’s a John DONOVAN, admitted to same school, born 23 August 1873, with same father as Carrie.
I have not looked for their discharge, nor for their births, nor sightings of them on 1881 Census.
JM
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You are not telling me anything I don't already know. An English by birth can be used by anyone born either England, Ireland or Scotland ect in this country. >:(
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You are not telling me anything I don't already know. An English by birth can be used by anyone born either England, Ireland or Scotland ect in this country. >:(
Martin, I am in New South Wales, Australia, and I assure you that an Englishman even in 1910 was NOT an Irishman, nor a Scotsman, nor a Welshman. Over 25% of those alive in Australia in that era were born overseas, and the 1911 census separated them into:
England
Wales
Scotland
Ireland
Isle of Man
and many other nations too :)
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/2112.01911?OpenDocument
JM
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A good test
Trove
use keyword Englishman and the year 1910, - and there's 1418 instances of that use
use keyword Scotchman and the year 1910, - well there's 424 instances of that use
use keyword Scotsman and the year 1910, - wouldn't you know it, 301 instances of that use
use keyword Irishman and the year 1910, - agh ... so there's 884 instances of that use
use keyword Welshman and the year 1910, - wow ... and there's 124 instances of that use.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/?q=
JM
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Firstly, do not blame 'Irish records' for your failure to find the information you are looking for. All Irish civil records (births, deaths & Catholic marriages from 1864 and non-Catholic marriages from 1845). In the last few years a tremendous number of records have been put online free (surviving census records, civil records, Catholic parish registers, etc.).
Secondly, you are greatly mistaken- British can cover Ireland pre-1921 but Irish people are NOT English.
You are not telling me anything I don't already know. An English by birth can be used by anyone born either England, Ireland or Scotland ect in this country. >:(
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OK what other is there on Carrie and John Donovan, with father Michael
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OK what other is there on Carrie and John Donovan, with father Michael
Martin, if John was my ancestor, I would put together a short paragraph including details as per his marriage cert and his death cert , then I would add the obit and then, in a separate paragraph I would briefly note Vera Donovan's oral history about her dad that she shared with you, one of her grandchildren.
SO I would, in a separate thread ask for help fnding John.
This new thread should be on the general ENGLAND board and give links back to this thread.
Carrie and John DONOVAN with dad as Michael are not the only possibles.
The obit is likely to be a good starting point.
I actally think you should have shared all the details on your document from SS Bradford City in your opening post on this thread.
Oral history is important, so when there's a published obit then simply because the obit is 'submitted' to the newspaper it needs to be tested too for it too is based on oral history. So Vera was a child when her dad died in 1910, and she was a gran when sharing her oral history of him with you, decades later. You have tested your recollections of her recollectiions but have not got back very far. Time now to test the obit etc.
JM edited for spelling, grammar.
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I should also note that Martin’s Gran was born in 1904 in South Australia. Her dad died in 1910 in South Australia, and she married in 1927 in South Australia. She died in 1993 in South Australia. See various indexes at : https://www.genealogysa.org.au/index.php?option=com_search&Itemid=32
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=750657.0
JM
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another piece of oral history that i have only recently learned from my mother regarding John McGrath
Elizabeth's second marriage, is that he and John Donovan knew each other, apparently while in school / monastery ! back in Ireland / England !.
This being recently learned i'm reluctant in following it up but could finding them together in the same school be of any help ?
Don't know much about him.
John MCGRATH born between 1873 and 1879
Date: 26 Jan 1959
Age: 86y (?80y NOT 86y)
Status: W
Residence: Queenstown
Death Place: Magill in Hospital
District Code: Nor/Book: 887/Page: 1007
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another piece of oral history that i have only recently learned from my mother regarding John McGrath
Elizabeth's second marriage, is that he and John Donovan knew each other, apparently while in school / monastery ! back in Ireland / England !.
This being recently learned i'm reluctant in following it up but could finding them together in the same school be of any help ?
Don't know much about him.
John MCGRATH born between 1873 and 1879
Date: 26 Jan 1959
Age: 86y (?80y NOT 86y)
Status: W
Residence: Queenstown
Death Place: Magill in Hospital
District Code: Nor/Book: 887/Page: 1007
That would be the death registration from the South Australia genealogy whizzs :) https://www.genealogysa.org.au/quick-links/search-page-02.html
JM
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:)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=773605.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=750657.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=570650.0
JM
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Martin, I think you should give serious consideration to preparing those paragraphs I wrote about for a new thread on the England-General Board. Here's a possible sighting in LONDON in 1896 for a Miss Carrie DONOVAN.
Freeman’s Journal and Daily Commercial Advertiser, (Dublin, Ireland) of Friday 6 November, 1896, (Gale Document Number: BC3204964310)
IRISH MUSICAL FEIS COMMITTEE
The Executive Committee of the Feis met on Tuesday evening at the Royal Irish Academy House ….. Subscriptions were acknowledged from ….And Miss Carrie Donovan, 267 Hackney Road, London.
Martin, perhaps you should consider seeking a readers card from the National Library in Canberra. These are no charge, and you need to be resident in Australia. Here’s a link to the online e-resources, including newspapers from Britain….
https://www.nla.gov.au/getalibrarycard/
Many listed under the link ‘Browse by category’
Including, the heading ‘Newspapers & Media’ there’s the following
https://www.nla.gov.au/app/eresources/item/4314 … The time period covered by these combined collections is 1600-1950. Together they provide the full text of historic local, regional and national newspapers, newsbooks & ephemera from across the British Isles. They include newspapers from London, the English regions, home country newspapers from Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. These titles present Britain in all areas
JM
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Re John as English
13 Aug 1877, Carrie DONOVAN, admitted to Globe Road School, Town Hamlets, London, born 11 November 1871, with father as Michael DONOVAN, 6 Ernest Place
Same date of admission as Carrie, there’s a John DONOVAN, admitted to same school, born 23 August 1873, with same father as Carrie.
I have not looked for their discharge, nor for their births, nor sightings of them on 1881 Census.
JM
1881 census
RG 11/ 421/52/97
6, Ernest Place, Bethnal Green
Michael Donovan, head, mar, 31, Hatter, Ireland
Caroline Donovan, wife, mar, 30, Middlesex Bethnal Green
Caroline do, daur, 9, scholar, do do
John do, son, 7, do, do do
A ?? do, son, 3, do, do do
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well found JenB :)
JM
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Re John as English
13 Aug 1877, Carrie DONOVAN, admitted to Globe Road School, Town Hamlets, London, born 11 November 1871, with father as Michael DONOVAN, 6 Ernest Place
Same date of admission as Carrie, there’s a John DONOVAN, admitted to same school, born 23 August 1873, with same father as Carrie.
I have not looked for their discharge, nor for their births, nor sightings of them on 1881 Census.
JM
1881 census
RG 11/ 421/52/97
6, Ernest Place, Bethnal Green
Michael Donovan, head, mar, 31, Hatter, Ireland
Caroline Donovan, wife, mar, 30, Middlesex Bethnal Green
Caroline do, daur, 9, scholar, do do
John do, son, 7, do, do do
A ?? do, son, 3, do, do do
Going by the mother's maiden name on the GRO birth index for the children, this particular Michael Donovan married a Caroline Emma Morgan in Lambeth R.D. in 1867.
In 1871 they are living at 6, Ernest Place, and John is a Journeyman Hatter., born in Cork (RG 10 / 489 / 100 / 76)
In 1891 Caroline E Donovan is living in Whitechapel with daughter Maud, born 1886, and she states she is a widow (RG 12 / 282 / 6/ 6)
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Freeman’s Journal and Daily Commercial Advertiser, (Dublin, Ireland) of Friday 6 November, 1896, (Gale Document Number: BC3204964310)
IRISH MUSICAL FEIS COMMITTEE
The Executive Committee of the Feis met on Tuesday evening at the Royal Irish Academy House ….. Subscriptions were acknowledged from ….And Miss Carrie Donovan, 267 Hackney Road, London.
There is a Donovan family living at 267 Hackney Road in 1891. It is headed by a 63 year old Denis Donovan, a widower born in Cork. Among his children is a 26 year old Caroline Donovan, who is presumably the 'Carrie' mentioned above. RG 12 / 254/ 95/ 2.
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Hi Martin,
I have found the online index entry that led you to form the view that your John DONOVAN’s desertion was withdrawn by the SS Bradford City in 1911.
https://www.familyhistorysa.org/
One of the webpages there is the Persons Lost and Found 1838 to 1920 and that has notes and a key to the abbreviations they have used. Here’s a relevant summary:
30,900 deserters from wives, families, ships, military and other service ..... compiled from South Australian Police Gazettes,
......... ....PG = South Australian Police Gazette......
I can see that there’s four ships deserters found in their index:
https://www.familyhistorysa.org/sahistory/deserters.html
DONOVAN John, 23 y, native of IRL. Deserted SS Bradford City at Port Pirie. Source: PG 1911 p 164, 173. [Ship having sailed, warrant withdrawn by PG 5-7-1911]
(Martin, this must be where your information came from, as your post on the decipher board seems to be copy and paste from this.)
DONOVAN John, 51 y, native of Plymouth. Arrived on 'Lord Lyndoch'. Absconded on pass from Launceston to Deloraine. Extract from TAS Crime Report. Source: PG 1871, p 178 (Martin, this one cannot be your chap, wrong age)
DONOVAN John. Deserted 'Bundaleer' 1-9-1874. Source: D6 (Martin, your chap was aged 38 in 1910, so it is not possible he was a crewmember of any ship in 1874)
DONOVAN John. Deserted 'Lord Hungerford' Dec 1856. Source: D6 (Martin, this chap deserted long before your chap was born).
Martin, Your information across several threads shows that your chap died in Port Pirie, a waterside worker there, aged 38 in 1910. So, basically, 1910 – 38 gives a birth year of about 1872, so he was not the 23 year old in 1911, nor any of the others listed either.
For others following this thread, there’s also other threads to help find Martin’s John DONOVAN... see
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800161.0
May I continue to suggest that you consider putting together a summary and start a thread on the main general board for England. Please do remember to include links to all these threads about John Donovan.
ADD
Firstly as far back as I can remember my grandmother would tell us about her father John Donovan and where he came from as well as his parents being publicans. Secondly S.A. register have records of John and Elizabeth's marriage which gives his father's name as Michael as well as their 3 daughters. John's name is on a list of deserters, which ship we are not sure of, the retraction was made by the SS Bradford City (built 1903) 1911. I also understand Irish research can be difficult due to the lack of records. Macnamara should not even get a look in.
and
The only extra info we now is once deserting ship in Port Pirie Sth Australia about 1894 he married my g grandmother Elizabeth Ann Brooks 12 Feb 1895. He died 12 Sept 1910 aged 38. The oral history about parents being publicans and his father marring twice came from him. As far as we know he was not cathlic.
JM
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I can add the summery to the U.K. board but how do I add the links ? never had to do it before.
John is turning out to be a bit of a mystery.
The list of deserters is actually a 28 page PDF I found while searching our J Donovan and 2 J donovon's all Pt Pirie.
Thanks for everyone's work so far hopefully something will come of this.
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Here’s a suitable live link you can copy and paste into your proposed new thread :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799627.0
JM
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So, if considering the info about John DONOVAN (son of Michael) as be John (Jack) DONOVANs 1910 obit well in 1890 or a little earlier, John DONOVAN arrived in Port Pirie, South Australia. 1910 - 38 gives possible birth year of 1872ish ... so John was around 18 years of age when he arrived in South Australia. If an Englishman, then there's only one UK census to be searched ... 1881 ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800161.0
and also
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799627.0 :)
But umm... I was suggesting that a summary of the English aspects could be placed on the general England board (add in a new thread), with reference back to the live link I have included in this post.
You see, Michael DONOVAN is the person named as father of John DONOVAN who died in South Australia in 1910. In the Obituary for that John Donovan, there's mention he was an Englishman.
Here's the obit : https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95241468
includes the following :
Mr.Donovan was an Englishman by birth, had followed the sea as a vocation for some time, and a little over 20 years ago came to Port Pirie, where, except for a short while now and again, he continued to work on the wharfs, first as a labourer and then as foreman stevedore. Of late years he had been largely employed by the Spencer Gulf Stevedoring Company. Mr. Donovan was at the time of his death, comparatively speaking, but a young man, being only 38 years of age, and he has left a widow and young family of three, for whom much sympathy is felt.
JM
JM
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RE; posting summery.
What we do know about John Donovan;
Born abt 1873
Have his name on a list of ship deserters in Pt Pirie.
DONOVAN John, 23 y, native of IRL. Deserted SS Bradford City at Port Pirie. Source: PG 1911 p 164, 173.
[Ship having sailed, warrant withdrawn by PG 5-7-1911]
Worked on the warves Pt Pirie sometimes as an interpreter.
According to Sth Aust. marriage registry his father s name was given as Michael.
Mothers name unknown.
Married Elizabeth Ann Brooks, Daughter of Thomas and Annie Brooks, 12 Feb. 1895, Pt Pirie, Sth Aust.
They had 3 daughters Ethel May Adelaide (1895), Annie (1899) and Vera Doutheen (1904) my grandmother).
John died 10 Sept. 1910, Pt Pirie.
Elizabeth remarried 1 Mar. 1912 to a John McGrath.
Local news paper of the time describes John DONOVAN as an Englishman !
Oral History;
Only son of an only son.
First or middle name may have been Michael, after his father.
Was from County Cork.
Father remarried after first wife died. Was always told second wife was French !
Was put into a school / monastery (age unknown) to become a priest (Not sure before or after mother died) but ran away and became a merchant seaman.
Father was a publican / spirit dealer.
Both John's knew each other possibly back in Ireland.
Unsure of ship he deserted, the SS Bradford City to my knowledge was built 1903 or 06 and sunk about 1942. Would have had to have deserted before 1895.
Personnel note. I still don't think he was an Englishman.
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Hi Martin,
I am sorry, but .... your John DONOVAN was NOT the 23 year old listed as a deserter as per your info here:
.....
DONOVAN John, 23 y, native of IRL. Deserted SS Bradford City at Port Pirie. Source: PG 1911 p 164, 173.
[Ship having sailed, warrant withdrawn by PG 5-7-1911]...
I am very sure that the above information originates from the South Australian Police Gazette of 1911, at pages 164 and 173. Those two pages note that a person in June 1911 named John Donovan, deserted the SS Bradford City at Port Pirie. Your John Donovan was already deceased when that John Donovan, a sailor on the SS Bradford City deserted that vessel.
I have carefully transcribed the information from the PG 1911 P 164, 173 and uploaded to your threads earlier. Please do read back and check.
I have diligently searched to find any record of a John or Jack DONOVAN deserting in 1894 and earlier, and confirm I have not found anyone that would be a likely candidate for your chap.
I note that the Trove obituary was published after the newspaper provided a notice to the effect that they were intending to publish one. So there was plenty of opportunity for the locals to provide information about Jack, including that he was an Englishman.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95241396 14 September 1910
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95241468 17 September 1910
I confirm that I searched through the rest of September 1910 issues of that Port Pirie Recorder and North Western Mail newspaper for any mention of anyone contradicting the information in the obituary. I found none. I am happy to be corrected. ;) The newspaper is digitised and freely available for searching at https://trove.nla.gov.au/
JM
Hi Martin,
I have found the online index entry that led you to form the view that your John DONOVAN’s desertion was withdrawn by the SS Bradford City in 1911.
https://www.familyhistorysa.org/
One of the webpages there is the Persons Lost and Found 1838 to 1920 and that has notes and a key to the abbreviations they have used. Here’s a relevant summary:
30,900 deserters from wives, families, ships, military and other service ..... compiled from South Australian Police Gazettes,
......... ....PG = South Australian Police Gazette......
I can see that there’s four ships deserters found in their index:
https://www.familyhistorysa.org/sahistory/deserters.html
DONOVAN John, 23 y, native of IRL. Deserted SS Bradford City at Port Pirie. Source: PG 1911 p 164, 173. [Ship having sailed, warrant withdrawn by PG 5-7-1911]
(Martin, this must be where your information came from, as your post on the decipher board seems to be copy and paste from this.)
DONOVAN John, 51 y, native of Plymouth. Arrived on 'Lord Lyndoch'. Absconded on pass from Launceston to Deloraine. Extract from TAS Crime Report. Source: PG 1871, p 178 (Martin, this one cannot be your chap, wrong age)
DONOVAN John. Deserted 'Bundaleer' 1-9-1874. Source: D6 (Martin, your chap was aged 38 in 1910, so it is not possible he was a crewmember of any ship in 1874)
DONOVAN John. Deserted 'Lord Hungerford' Dec 1856. Source: D6 (Martin, this chap deserted long before your chap was born).
Martin, Your information across several threads shows that your chap died in Port Pirie, a waterside worker there, aged 38 in 1910. So, basically, 1910 – 38 gives a birth year of about 1872, so he was not the 23 year old in 1911, nor any of the others listed either.
For others following this thread, there’s also other threads to help find Martin’s John DONOVAN... see
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800161.0
May I continue to suggest that you consider putting together a summary and start a thread on the main general board for England. Please do remember to include links to all these threads about John Donovan.
ADD
Firstly as far back as I can remember my grandmother would tell us about her father John Donovan and where he came from as well as his parents being publicans. Secondly S.A. register have records of John and Elizabeth's marriage which gives his father's name as Michael as well as their 3 daughters. John's name is on a list of deserters, which ship we are not sure of, the retraction was made by the SS Bradford City (built 1903) 1911. I also understand Irish research can be difficult due to the lack of records. Macnamara should not even get a look in.
and
The only extra info we now is once deserting ship in Port Pirie Sth Australia about 1894 he married my g grandmother Elizabeth Ann Brooks 12 Feb 1895. He died 12 Sept 1910 aged 38. The oral history about parents being publicans and his father marring twice came from him. As far as we know he was not cathlic.
JM
JM
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Here is my transcription of the PG 1911 p.164, 173. :)
South Australia Police Gazette June 28, 1911, page 164
DESERTERS FROM MERCHANT VESSELS
From the ss ‘BRADFORD CITY’ at PORT PIRIE on June 23rd 1911
Warrants issued for the following :-
........
John DONOVAN, A.B. 23 years of age, large fair moustache, a native of Ireland, dress not described.
......
......
.....
.....
A reward for £1 will be paid for the arrest of each of the above-named. Warrants filed at Port Pirie. (C1449).
(JM notes that six sailors were named in that notice).
and then there's this notice in the South Australian Police Gazette :
Page 173, July 5, 1911
Vide Police Gazette 1911, page 164. Re P Sheehan, John Donovan, S Napper and William Evans, deserters from the ss Bradford City at Port Pirie on June 23rd, 1911, The warrants for arrest of the above named have been withdrawn, the ship having sailed. C 1449.
Sometimes my hunches actually work :-X
JM
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For the time being at least John Donovan whether Irishman or Englishman will remain a mystery. Some of the reasons; married in 1895 Port Pirie S.A. but deserted the ship Bradford City in 1911, ship built 1903.
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For the time being at least John Donovan whether Irishman or Englishman will remain a mystery. Some of the reasons; married in 1895 Port Pirie S.A. but deserted the ship Bradford City in 1911, ship built 1903.
Martin, your John DONOVAN is NOT the person who deserted the ship SS Bradford City. The John Donovan who deserted the ship did so in June 1911. On several of your threads you have told us that your John Donovan died in 1910, and that his daughter Vera is your late Grandmother.
https://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html
At the above link others reading this thread will be able to find the index references for your John's marriage, (to Elizabeth Brooks, 1895); death in 1910 (undefined relative); and of course the birth registration in 1904 of your Grandmother, Vera.
JM
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Martin, do you have copy of the 1910 South Australian death certificate for your John Donovan? If so, what information is recorded there in response to the question:
Birthplace and length of residence in Australia
ADD, :) that information was requested from 1907 :) see
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
JM
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No Xtra info :
DONOVAN John (M) of Solomantown. d. 12 Sept. 1910 at Solomantown.
rel. (not recorded).
District of Clare.
b. 351
p. 383
Solomantown is suburb of Pt Pirie.
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No Xtra info on death cert.
DONOVAN John (M) of Solomantown. d. 12 Sept. 1910 at Solomantown.
rel. (not recorded).
District of Clare.
b. 351
p. 383
Solomantown is suburb of Pt Pirie.
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No Xtra info :
DONOVAN John (M) of Solomantown. d. 12 Sept. 1910 at Solomantown.
rel. (not recorded).
District of Clare.
b. 351
p. 383
Solomantown is suburb of Pt Pirie.
Martin, that's the info on the index. You need the actual certificate that the index is referencing. It will have more info that is not on the index summary. You may need to purchase the document.
JM.
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I was told by the local history society that the index was copied
from the death cert which can be viewed for a small fee (they will not copy). It's held in Clare town hall.
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I was told by the local history society that the index was copied
from the death cert which can be viewed for a small fee (they will not copy). It's held in Clare town hall.
Well yes of course the index will have details that are copied from the death certificate, but what about the details that are on the certificate and are not on the index, particularly the details under the heading BIRTHPLACE and HOW LONG in Australia ... the d.c. is available and I have given you the link in earlier post.
#48 has link to order that cert.
JM
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Unable to use pay sites so will have to wait till I'm able to get to Clare. Records can only be viewed Thursday's .
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Unable to use pay sites so will have to wait till I'm able to get to Clare. Records can only be viewed Thursday's .
For the time being at least John Donovan whether Irishman or Englishman will remain a mystery. Some of the reasons; married in 1895 Port Pirie S.A. but deserted the ship Bradford City in 1911, ship built 1903.
Martin, your John DONOVAN is NOT the person who deserted the ship SS Bradford City. The John Donovan who deserted the ship did so in June 1911. On several of your threads you have told us that your John Donovan died in 1910, and that his daughter Vera is your late Grandmother.
https://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html
At the above link others reading this thread will be able to find the index references for your John's marriage, (to Elizabeth Brooks, 1895); death in 1910 (undefined relative); and of course the birth registration in 1904 of your Grandmother, Vera.
JM
Martin, the link I gave you is NOT to a pay site. It takes you to the INDEX, and then click on the Find More option ... :D
Click through should take you through to BDM SA, so try this link:
https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/family-and-community/births,-deaths-and-marriages/family-research
You can order the certificate Online or by Phone or In Person or by Post, but the certificate will cost you a fee. As far as I know, every BDM office throughout all of the eight jurisdictions that make up Australia charge a fee for providing historic certificates.
JM
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We have ruled out that John Donovan deserted the SS Bradford City. Now I have to expand the search.
Also, the Adelaide library has books which mention deserters as do Sydney, Melbourne and Fremantle libraries but I’m unable to view them (not view-able online). Ancestry also has a lot of info on deserters if anyone can help in that area it would be much appreciated.
Obit says at time of death had been living in Pt Pirie a little over 20 years which puts his arrival here late 1880's. This also means he was in his teens when he first went to sea.
Obit also says age at death was 38 but death cert says 39 (viewed online) his puts birth year 1871.
(waiting on delivery of death cert by snail mail).
Regards
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Excellent :)
I hope there are lots of clues in that document. Fingers crossed that the informant is a family member. I am also hoping that it gives place of birth or at least a county, rather than just say 'England' or 'Ireland'
JM
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:)
And here's a link for incoming passenger lists to South Australia, as the d.c. should show how long he had been in SA.
https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/passenger-lists-view
JM
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Finnally received John Donovan's death cert. It states place of birth as County Cork, Ireland. Does not give name of who registered death only that he was married & hod 3 daughters. Lived in Solomantown, age at death 39, 20 years in Australia & 24 when he married. Also name of udertaker.
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They can take ages when coming by snail mail. :)
So he was aged around 19 when he arrived in Australia, and aged 24 when marrying ... five years in any locality across the entire continent prior to courting and marrying at 24 ...
Does the cert give his occupation as at September 1910... :)
Re no informant named ... not unusual, but may I suggest it was perhaps the Undertaker or the Assistant to the Undertaker,
County Cork, Ireland, for his origins ... so it's the d.c. that gives this and thus contradicts the obituary... One of those two sources may be right, both may be wrong, but both cannot be right. Without knowing who provided the information for either it remains difficult to know which is the more reliable.
JM
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Occupation, whalf labourer. Personally I'd go with death cert for country of birth given that the info hopefully would have been given to undertaker by wife !. It is also what my grandmother (daughter) had always told us.