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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: pet50ite on Sunday 02 September 18 11:53 BST (UK)
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Would anybody know whether there are any online resources listing details of Catholic priests in Ireland? I have looked at the Find my past church records but they seem to be predominantly Quaker with a smattering of Catholic directories that are too early for my needs. It's one of those situations where I don't know what part of Ireland I need to look (possibly Dublin or Wexford but it could honestly be anywhere) and I'm not sure what generation I am dealing with so it could be anytime between 1830 and 1890ish. Sorry to be so vague but it is a family story regarding my Granny's father or her grandfather's siblings.
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Hello,
Do you think he had died by 1890? If not there is the census,
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie
You could try searching for a death https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
You could try working back from granny.
Heywood
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Hi Heywood,
Unfortunately, I'm hampered by the fact that I don't know any first names or ages :-[. The story is that granny's dad or grandfather was the seventh son of a seventh son and that five of the seven sons were priests. So far I have found (with the back up of a researcher) 3 of my great granddad's brothers. One died young, one was married and one died aged 20 but other than finding him in Glasnevin there appears to be no civil registration of his death so I don't know what his occupation was. As you can see, this is looking more and more like a lost cause. Thanks for your suggestions.
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You have a surname so it might be possible to find more details. If you tell us exactly what you already know then we can try searching for the brothers.
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Hi Heywood,
Unfortunately, I'm hampered by the fact that I don't know any first names or ages :-[. The story is that granny's dad or grandfather was the seventh son of a seventh son and that five of the seven sons were priests. So far I have found (with the back up of a researcher) 3 of my great granddad's brothers. One died young, one was married and one died aged 20 but other than finding him in Glasnevin there appears to be no civil registration of his death so I don't know what his occupation was. As you can see, this is looking more and more like a lost cause. Thanks for your suggestions.
I think so. Especially when you won't give any details on Surname, let alone any Names/Dates.
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Hi aghadowey,
Please bear with me as I am having a really bad techie day :) I've already typed three quarters of a reply to you and managed to lose the lot.
This is my Sinnott family and I had been hoping that if there was a directory or similar, I would be able to recognise an address.
I've written previously about the Sinnotts:- Wexford / Re: advice please on researching possible wexford family
« by pet50ite on Tuesday 21 August 12 21:27 BST (UK) »
Dublin / dublin? ship's captain
« by pet50ite on Monday 10 January 11 17:20 GMT (UK) Dublin / Re: cathedral dublin (pro cathedral?)
« by pet50ite on Saturday 22 January 11 16:25 GMT (UK) »
To summarise what I have found and what a researcher has sent me:-
1. James Sinnott baptised 1859. parents Edward Sinnott and Catherine Walsh, St. Andrews, Westland Row
2. Edward Sinnott and Catherine Walsh married 1846 in RC church Monkstown in the parish of Kingstown.
3. Edward Sinnott probably baptised 1821 in parish of Ballyoughter, Wexford. Father James, mother Catherine Kerwan
4. Catherine Walsh baptised 1819 in parish of Ballyoughter. Father Michael, Mother Ellen Kavanagh.
James Sinnott b1859 has 3/4 brothers
1.John baptised 1847, St. Andrews Westland Row. Married Maria Condon 1871
2. Edward baptised 1854, St. Andrews, Westland Row. Died 1865 aged 10.
3. Robert baptised 1857, St. Andrews, Westland Row. Died 1877 aged 20.
4. Richard (Richard is in the same grave as Edward and Robert but the researcher didn't mention him) died 1890 aged 32, occupation unemployed telegraph clerk).
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Freeman's Journal, 6 Aug.1877: SlNNOTT-Aug. 4, at _ Marshall-terrace, North-strand, Robert Sinnott, aged 20. Interment at 10.30 this Monday morning.
You didn't mention that Richard Sinnott committed suicide- an inquest reported in the newspapers might mention family members-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1890/06107/4743228.pdf
Several papers reposted it, here's an extract of one-
Dublin Daily Express, 3 Apr.1890: ... inquest was held yesterday ... on the body of the man who was killed train Monday night. He was identified as Richard Sinnott, who had formerly been telegraph operator the General Post Office, but who lost his employment about two years ago, and had no other employment since...
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Sorry, I should have mentioned that and the fact that I have the newspaper report and the only family member it mentions is his mother, Catherine.
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Is the article "Ancestors who were priests" on Catholic Family History Society website any use? It has a list of sources. Many Irish priests went to Britain. https://catholicfhs.wordpress.com/tag/priests/
The Catholic Directory (England & Wales) was published annually. Each edition should contain list of deceased priests. Was there an Irish equivalent?
A priest belonging to a family of mine was mentioned in newspapers when he was a student at Maynooth because he won prizes (1841), and later in his career. Newspapers in districts where there were seminaries may have published ordination lists? Try under surname for mentions in Catholic or Irish press throughout their likely lifespans. Obituary would have mentioned if deceased priest had brothers who were priests. Some local newspapers covered official openings of new churches in detail, listing priests present.
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Thank you Maiden Stone,
I'll have to set a day aside this week and try all of those options. My feeling is that it was probably my 2x gt. granddad's brothers because we already have some of my gt. granddad's brothers and they were definitely not priests. I will look for newspaper reports for both generations though.
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I tried searching for possible Sinnott brothers as priest in the newspapers but unfortunately there were just too many 'Father Sinnott' entries. Might be worth contacting their home parish to see if there are any records of so many brothers becoming priests.
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I'll try that. Possibly Ballyoughter and St. Andrews in Dublin? Hopefully I will have my head on straight tomorrow :)
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By the way, I forgot to say thank you to you all for the help I've been given
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Do you have any idea of the date of birth or death of your 2x gt. granddad?
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Thoms Directory 1922 has an Ecclesiastical Directory - includes Catholic priests.
But - I don't know how much further back this went . .
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Church directories listing the Catholic clergy in Ireland have been published continuously since 1836. These do not give biographical details.
For the secular clergy of the diocese of Ferns there a reference work, including biographical details, aptly named
"The Secular Priests of the Diocese of Ferns", by John V Gahan, 2000.
As the name implies, it does not include regular clergy.
There are 24 priests by the name of Sinnott listed.
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Culbaire, my gt. granddad, James Sinnott was born in 1859 and died in 1919.
Eadaoin, I will have to go back to FindMyPast directories sections and check the years I want. I just assumed that the Parish Priests would only be in the church section so only looked there.
Wexflyer, is the reference work you mentioned online somewhere?
Thank you all for your suggestions
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Wexflyer, is the reference work you mentioned online somewhere?
If you mean the book on the Ferns clergy, then no - it won't be out of copyright for another 60 years! But inter-library loan works, people seem to forget about that.
If you mean the Catholic Directories, then these are online in quite a few places, but I don't think they are very useful.
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Wexflyer, I'm not sure that English libraries will be able to get hold of a copy of the book about Ferns clergy but I will give it a go.
I've started to go through the ordinary directories and have found a John Sinnott who was president of St. Peter's Roman Catholic College, Wexford in 1845. So that will be worth checking out once I've finished looking through the directories.
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Wexflyer, I'm not sure that English libraries will be able to get hold of a copy of the book about Ferns clergy but I will give it a go.
There used to be an international inter-library lending scheme. I hope it still exists in these straitened times. Otherwise you may have to request someone in Ireland to do a look-up for you.
Let us know how you get on.
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To keep you all up to date, I have emailed St. Andrews Westland Row and Ferns diocese this morning, both of them got back to me very quickly and said they will pass the emails on to the relevant person to deal with it. The person that Ferns diocese referred me to, got back to me and said that their records do not show anybody from the Parish of Ballyoughter becoming priests in Ferns but that they could have been enrolled in another diocese or another country, either missionary or America.
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Hello,
I have only been dipping in here now and again so not sure if I am following properly re the time span and places. I don’t u derstand where you have Ballyoughter for your Sinnotts.
However,
There is a death of a Rev Robert Sinnott 58 yrs, P.P of Ballyoughter in 1886
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06234/4784582.pdf
A newspaper snippet of 1876 mentions him assisting at the marriage of a cousin (the bride).
There are also a couple of mentions of him after his death.
This though shows him as born Newtown, Kilmuckridge :-\
http://www.camolinparish.ie/clergy1676-2010.html
Heywood
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My understanding is that the priests being sought may be brothers of Edward Sinnott, who was probably baptised 1821 in Ballyoughter, Co Wexford.
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My understanding is that the priests being sought may be brothers of Edward Sinnott, who was probably baptised 1821 in Ballyoughter, Co Wexford.
Which brings up the question of why OP believes that - that Edward Sinnott was from Balllyoughter, that is?
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Thanks culbaire.
I just thought I would mention it because of Ballyoughter but wasn’t sure. I haven’t quite worked it out yet.I’ll go back now and read about Edward.
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Wexflyer,
I paid a researcher to look into my Sinnott line. Working back from his death date/age and the fact that his wife (Catherine Walsh) was born in Wexford he found their marriage in Monkstown and probable births for both of them in Ballyoughter.
Heywood, those links look interesting. I will have a thorough look in the morning as I don't want to make any mistakes.
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Wexflyer,
I paid a researcher to look into my Sinnott line. Working back from his death date/age and the fact that his wife (Catherine Walsh) was born in Wexford he found their marriage in Monkstown and probable births for both of them in Ballyoughter.
Can you provide names, dates? It is always striking to me how economical people are with information. It is so much easier to help you if we can understand what is really KNOWN as opposed to conjecture. A look on Ancestry will throw up any number of pedigrees where all sorts of improbable combinations are asserted. A marriage here, a birth there...., the only common factor being that the names are the "right" ones. Why would two people from Ballyoughter, Co. Wexford get married in Monkstown, Co. Dublin? What is there to link them to Ballyoughter, other than their names?
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Hi Wexflyer,
I'm sorry I haven't been clear enough. My original query was whether anyone knew of any online church directories so that I could look for myself but everyone has been so helpful and asked me specific questions that I did my best to answer.
The facts I have are as follows and might have to be done in several parts (some of which were mentioned in the threads I mentioned at the beginning of this thread).
Records that mentionJames Sinnott (my great grandfather)
Death/Glasnevin 1919 6 Wellesley Place
1911 census 6 Wellesley Place with wife Mary
1906 Prison for embezzlement. 6 Wellesley Place. Where born Grand Canal St
Daughters's weddings
1. 1909 Mary Josephine/James Cowan 6 Wellesley Place
2. Esther/Joseph Byrne 6 Welesley Place
3. 1901 Catherine/James Gaffney 3 Simmons Place
1901 census 3 Simmons Place with wife Mary, daughters Catherine, Esther, Mary Josephine, mother Catherine (born c1818 Wexford) and brother in law James Conlon.
Daughters births
1886 Mary Josephine 12 Summer Place. sponsors Richard Sinnott/Mary English
1885 Esther 8 Buckingham buildings
1881 Catherine 17 Summer Place sponsor Teresa Conlon
James' marriage to Mary Conlon. Church records sept 1880. James 14 St Patricks Avenue, North Strand. Mary 17 Summer Place. The marriage was officially registered 4/5 months later with the same details except that it list his father as Patrick Sinnott, sea captain, decd.
James Bapt Feb 1859 St. Andrews Westland Row. Mother Catherine Walsh, Father Edward Sinnott address Gratton Court.
Probable father and siblings of James in Glasnevin grave.
Edward Sinnott 4 Merrion square dies 1867 age 57
Richard Sinnott 48 Strandville Avenue, dies 1890 age 32. Newspaper report said it was a suicide. His mother Catherine was asked to speak at the inquest.
Robert Sinnott 14 Marshall Terrace dies 1877 age 20
Edward Sinnott 9 Powers Court dies 1865 age 10
Plus possible niece Charlotte 7 Berkeley Street dies 1876 age 2
Marriage details of probable bother John marrying Mary Condon 1871
John 8 Clarence Place Father Edward Sinnott coachmaker Mother Catherine Walsh
Mary 8 Caroline Row Father Michael Condon Mother Mary O'Hanlon
Probable sibling baptisms at St. Andrews Westland Row
Robert 1857 sponsor Ellen Stoke
Edward 1854 sponsors Mary Byrne/James Brophy
John 1847 sponsors John Wilson/Mary Roche
It was at this point that I contacted a research company to prove/disprove a different family story that James or his father were sailors. They could find no records to back this story. They agreed with the rest of the details I had sent but did not mention James brother Richard. They found a likely marriage for his parents in Monkstown 1846 and possible births for Catherine 1819 Ballenhillen, Ballyoughter and Edward 1821 Ballyoughter but could not prove conclusively that they were the right people.
I hope this is not too much information
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Thanks for the details - so much easier with those in hand! Seems to me that there are several serious issues with this pedigree.
You say the 1880 marriage registration for James Sinnott gives his father as Patrick, a sailor, and you say that family tradition supports the idea of the family being sailors. But then you have James as the son of an Edward Sinnott, rather than Patrick, and that there is no evidence for the latter as a sailor. Clearly these don't fit!
Second, the connection to Wexford is, as I suspected, simply one of the names/dates roughly fitting.
You have to bear in mind that many/most records from 1820s don't survive, so it is the classic case of "looking under the lamp post." If all the records did survive, then I am certain that you would have multiple candidates for both Catherine Walsh, and Patrick or Edward Sinnott - who may not even have been from Wexford.
Third, if the family tradition of a seafaring occupation is correct, then Ballyoughter - an inland parish - is a highly unlikely place of origin. It would point to a coastal origin instead. Sailors could settle down on land, but landlubbers rarely became sailors.
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I have gone through the 24 priests named Sinnott in the index of the book mentioned above about the Priests of the Diocese of Ferns. Cannot identify even one find that might possibly be a brother of Edward Sinnott born 1821 in Ballyoughter, never mind five.
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I am not thinking there is any connection here but the priest who married James and Mary Conlan/Conlon was a Fr Conlan. Perhaps the story of the relative came from there.
The civil registers do seem to have been completed a few months later- that page and others and the father’s name may just have been an error. Mary’s father was also Patrick.
The Sea Captain though is a different matter. It seems difficult to mix that occupation with a labourer unless Edward had a job at sea for a while.
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Wexflyer,
The marriage registration say James' father was Patrick but the actual church records 4/5 months earlier say his dad was Edward. The researcher and various people who have helped me on Rootschat are of the opinion that as the civil records are copied from church records (and there is such a time gap) that the church records are more likely to be accurate.
You are correct about the dearth of records in 1820s. However we do know that Catherine came from Wexford as noted on the 1901 census I mentioned.
As to the family stories. I live in England but a lot of my many cousins live in Ireland and had more access to granny's stories. The two main ones being that her dad (James Sinnott) or grandfather (Edward) was a sailor. I have found no evidence of that. The other story that her dad or grandfather was one of 7 sons, 5 of whom were priests.
When I wrote originally in 2011/12 it was to ask about the sailor aspect. This thread was about the Catholic priest aspect.
Culbaire.
Thank you so much for checking the book for me. That will save a trip to the library.
Heywood.
It is entirely possible the story of the Priest relative came from the Fr Conlon marrying James/Mary Conlon. Yet another avenue for me to look at. I think I will wait until my next holiday from work to try and process all this as I do have a fair amount on the Conlons to wade through.
As I mentioned to Wexflyer, both the researcher and previous helpers on Rootschat were of the opinion that the church wedding details for James wedding are more likely to be correct than the civil registration many months later.
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Wexflyer,
The marriage registration say James' father was Patrick but the actual church records 4/5 months earlier say his dad was Edward. The researcher and various people who have helped me on Rootschat are of the opinion that as the civil records are copied from church records (and there is such a time gap) that the church records are more likely to be accurate.
You are correct about the dearth of records in 1820s. However we do know that Catherine came from Wexford as noted on the 1901 census I mentioned.
As to the family stories. I live in England but a lot of my many cousins live in Ireland and had more access to granny's stories. The two main ones being that her dad (James Sinnott) or grandfather (Edward) was a sailor. I have found no evidence of that. The other story that her dad or grandfather was one of 7 sons, 5 of whom were priests.
When I wrote originally in 2011/12 it was to ask about the sailor aspect. This thread was about the Catholic priest aspect.
I have to disagree that the civil registration was simply copied from the church records 5 months later. The civil registration has to be personally signed by the parties, the witnesses, and the priest. That was and is required for the marriage to be valid! If you look at the record online, it is clear that what is shown is the GRO copy, not the original registration. None of the signature entries are originals. [This is true of all the GRO records - they are all copies, and not originals]. There is somewhere the actual original registration.
As for the sailor aspect, I would repeat that if there is truth in this - and the marriage registration says it is true! - then it would strongly point away from Ballyoughter for the Sinnotts.
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I will go back in the records and check the Patrick Sinnott possibility when I have some spare time. When we first got the GRO copy, many years ago, I did look for suitable Patrick Sinnott records and found none, but there have been loads more records made available since then.
I am still leaning towards Edward as James's father because on his prison record his address is 6 Wellesley Place (and generations of our family lived there until the 1960s) but under "where born" he put Grand Canal Street. On Edward Sinnott's death registration his address is Grand Canal Street
district. Also, on my granny's baptism, one of the sponsors is Richard Sinnott. In the grave with Edward Sinnott is a Richard Sinnott, of a similar generation to James.
None of the above is conclusive, obviously, but I will be checking the Patrick angle to make sure.
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Just to say that I was originally a bit sceptical about the name, but with the additional details you posted I would agree that the name is likely to be Edward rather than Patrick (post #27 did not make it clear that Edward was named on the Church marriage register). That said
- In a case of disagreement like this, I would, if possible try to find the original civil registration record (not the GRO copy).
- Do you know the parish(s) for Grand Canal Street? If I were you I would personally go through the relevant parish registers entry by entry for the years surrounding the likely year of birth for James, +- 5-10 years! I found several of my family with that approach over the years - entries can be misindexed, missing entirely from indexes, misplaced (e.g. marriage recorded in baptism register, etc), mistakes on original entries. Any way of getting it wrong can and does occur. My own experience is that the error rate was high with the original records, and is very, very high with some (but not all) modern indexing efforts. Ancestry is simply dreadful...
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Thank you all for your help. I am hoping to have a few free days soon to sift through all the information and suggestions you have given me. It has definitely been food for thought.