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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Alison55 on Monday 03 September 18 21:32 BST (UK)
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This is a photo of a men's group in New York City in the 1880s. My great-grandfather is seated on the far right. He was in his 20s. It's the earliest picture we have of him.
I have two requests. First, Could the photo be cleaned up--remove scratches etc? Second, I also attached close-ups of the badge they are wearing. Can anyone tell at all what it says or what it is? I have been staring at it for years.
Some ideas--My great-grandfather was a labor leader at the time but it was secret for fear of getting fired so don't know if they'd have their photo taken. He was a conductor on a horse trolley at this time so may be a company outing. He was a Catholic and may have belonged to a church-related group. He was born in NYC but his parents were from Ireland so may be related to that, not political but ethnic.
Very grateful for any help.
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Here's a touch up of the photo. Hope you enjoy!
As to the badges, I have sent an email to a friend who is into collecting such things and will let you know if he gets back to me on it.
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Thank you so much for the restoration--much appreciated. And also for sending the badge question to your friend.
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A couple of versions from me.
Just a guess regarding the badges: the centre looks like a horseshoe so perhaps could relate to your great-grandfather's work as you mentioned, or was he involved in any horsesports that you know of (e.g. polo was popular in New York at the time)?
Peter
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Here's one from me. As Peter says the badge they are all wearing has a horseshoe on it, so could be something to do with his job. Could they be a team? I notice two or three are holding sticks, could it be a snooker club (are the sticks long enough)? Quite a mystery!!
Pat.
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Here's one from me. As Peter says the badge they are all wearing has a horseshoe on it, so could be something to do with his job. Could they be a team? I notice two or three are holding sticks, could it be a snooker club (are the sticks long enough)? Quite a mystery!!
Pat.
Unless it's snooker in a rough neighborhood, I'd say it's not that as the gentleman on the far right is holding a sabre, not a cue. I'd initially thought it might be a sabre fighting club (similar to fencing), perhaps a championship team, but it's most likely a walking stick in the gentleman on the far left's hand. So the gentleman on the right could be "sergeant at arms" for the group. Still no word back from my friend as to the origin of the badges, but I will keep you up to date if and when they respond.
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Thank you so much for sharing your skills with these excellent fix-ups. They look great.
I can't believe I never noticed those sticks, whatever they are. Not polo--my great-grandfather was not moving in polo-playing circles. :) The man standing on the far left seems to have one too but it may just be a walking stick.
I also never noticed a horseshoe on the badges and still really can't see the badges in any detail. Horseshoes could be occupational if all the men worked on the trolley cars or they could just be the traditional sign of good luck.
There also seems to be some kind of square badge or booklet hanging next to my great-grandfather's hat which he's holding next to his knee. I never noticed that before either.
The men are different ages, also perhaps a clue. They would not be classmates at a reunion.
Thank you so much again and looking forward to more thoughts etc.
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Thank you so much for sharing your skills with these excellent fix-ups. They look great.
I can't believe I never noticed those sticks, whatever they are. Not polo--my great-grandfather was not moving in polo-playing circles. :) The man standing on the far left seems to have one too but it may just be a walking stick.
I also never noticed a horseshoe on the badges and still really can't see the badges in any detail. Horseshoes could be occupational if all the men worked on the trolley cars or they could just be the traditional sign of good luck.
There also seems to be some kind of square badge or booklet hanging next to my great-grandfather's hat which he's holding next to his knee. I never noticed that before either.
The men are different ages, also perhaps a clue. They would not be classmates at a reunion.
Thank you so much again and looking forward to more thoughts etc.
I'm pretty sure that's not a stick but a sword in the man on the rights hand. From the shadow on his coat, it can been seen as very thin, and he seems to be palming the hilt by the guard in his hand with the rest of the hilt proceeding down between his fingers.
It looks like a sabre for fencing, but has a T type handle instead of a full shielding for the hand, so it could be either ceremonial (i.e. for a lodge or brotherhood type group) or an older (1700s era) dueling type sword.
I've enclosed some closeups and an example of the type of weapon in question.
My two cents.
Dr. Dude
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My friend got back to me and pointed out something to me I hadn't noticed. The photo was reversed.
The medal he says is a Saint Christopher medal in the center of the ribbons, so he feels this is a reunion of soldiers.
Enclosed is a mirrored copy of the photo and an example of a similar charm. The medallions were often manufactured regionally so there's many variants of it. He says the text over the horseshoe probably reads either "Saint Christopher" or "Saints Protect Us"
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Curiouser and curiouser. How can he tell that the photo was reversed? It doesn't matter--I am just wondering. The photo is a tintype, if that matters.
Saint Christopher--interesting. Usually the patron saint of people who are traveling. I am afraid it can't be soldiers as my great-grandfather was born in 1859 so a small child during the American Civil War. But maybe he was a patron saint of those who worked in transportation? Will have to google that.
This is most intriguing information. Thank you so much.
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Curiouser and curiouser. How can he tell that the photo was reversed? It doesn't matter--I am just wondering. The photo is a tintype, if that matters.
Saint Christopher--interesting. Usually the patron saint of people who are traveling. I am afraid it can't be soldiers as my great-grandfather was born in 1859 so a small child during the American Civil War. But maybe he was a patron saint of those who worked in transportation? Will have to google that.
This is most intriguing information. Thank you so much.
Men's clothes button up left over right, women's clothes right over left. As the men in the photo had their clothes buttoned right over left, it is a dead giveaway that the photo is reversed.
As it's a tintype photo, I can say a vast portion of tintype photos are reversed due to the process of making them, so unless it was done in a studio by someone of grand photographic skill (a rarity), odds are it's reversed.
A side note: Women of wealth in the "old days" didn't dress themselves, so their fashions were made so the buttons & fasteners were setup as convenient for the right-handed person helping them dress, not the person wearing the outfit.
There were other wars he could have fought in, including the Spanish-American War in 1898 & the Philippine Insurrection 1900-1902, not to mention the years of conquering the "wild west" and fights with the native American people. It's also possible he simply served and was getting together with the old unit for a reunion.
As to Saint Christopher, he is the Patron Saint of Travelers and Soldiers, the latter shortened to "Men in Uniform" as it also covers mail carriers in the modern times. Many US soldiers have carried a Saint Christopher small medal with them on the battlefield. The ones in the photo are ceremonial, so that denotes a reunion or memorial service.
Found this from https://www.catholicsaintmedals.com/about-st-christopher.aspx :
"St. Christopher is the patron saint of the following causes:
Athletes, mariners, travelers, against lightning, bachelors, boatmen, soldiers, floods, a holy death, drivers, sailors, transportation workers."
Hope I've been some help. Sorry if I ramble.
Dr. Dude
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Thanks for the info about the buttons and the reversal of the photo. I would never have noticed that.
I am sorry but the photo is definitely not a military reunion. I know his life from birth on--much documentation and oral history. This photo was in the 1880s and he never served except briefly as a civil engineer in WW1 in the US when he was almost 60.
Thanks again.
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Thanks for the info about the buttons and the reversal of the photo. I would never have noticed that.
I am sorry but the photo is definitely not a military reunion. I know his life from birth on--much documentation and oral history. This photo was in the 1880s and he never served except briefly as a civil engineer in WW1 in the US when he was almost 60.
Thanks again.
I can only speculate based on what I've seen, which is the photo. ;-)
There are other possibilities, but I went with the most common. Here's a few that seem possible based on what little info is known on my end:
-Wells Fargo or a similar group as an agent, private security or armed guard detail
-Social club like the Elks or Moose (highly unlikely as their medallions are usually very specific)
-Postal workers group photo
-Civil engineers for a major project or company (i.e. transcontinental rail road, major bridge or building construction). Such photos as this could not only be used for memorial purposes, but by the company as promotional material as well.
The one with the sabre is the one that makes it harder to figure out what besides military it could be.
Again, just my two cents. Hope I've been of some help.
Dr. Dude
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You have definitely been helpful, Dr Dude, and thank you very much.
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What about the Catholic mens' group, Knights of Columbus? They are very ceremonial and swords are part of the uniform.
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You have a good idea. There was another Catholic men's group at the time called the Catholic Benevolent Legion or CBL, often mentioned in obituaries. It was a combination of a self-funded insurance company--everyone pitched in a dollar or so so that your widow and children could be helped if you died--and also a social group holding events. The CBL later merged with the Knights of Columbus. I'll have to see if I can find out if they had swords or regalia. Thanks for the suggestion.
PS--Should have mentioned I have another ancestor in the CBL and it was a very active group where my NYC ancestors lived.
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What about the Catholic mens' group, Knights of Columbus? They are very ceremonial and swords are part of the uniform.
I was just browsing and saw this thread which I had looked at yesterday. I had a thought - perhaps it is a sodality similar to the Knights and here you are :) I too would put this idea forward.
Heywood
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I also noticed that their hats are identical....more of the uniform?
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Is it definitely a St Christopher rosette though?
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I really can't see what it is. It would be great if someone could enlarge it. When I zoom, the image breaks up.