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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Diarmuidgannon1916 on Wednesday 05 September 18 12:48 BST (UK)
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Hi
Looking for any information regarding my great grandfather Christopher jordan born Dublin 6 Jan 1870, lived at 5 grants row lower mount street Dublin , he was shot during the 1916 rising in Dublin on the 29th April 1916,while home on holidays, he worked in dornoch Scotland his employer was Walter cowen contractors , Christopher was a plumber and gas fitter, for that company. He work for Walter cowen from 1915 till his death, Christopher was to head back to dornoch after the Easter break in 1916, but died so never made it ,when he was killed he left a wife and six children.so any information on Christopher or Walter cowen contractors regarding Christopher would be brilliant or his sailing back and forward to Scotland,not to sure if he sailed on boat from Dublin or Belfast
Diarmuid,
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Not finding a Walter Cowan on Valuation Rolls in Dornoch 1905/15/20 although there's a William?
Annie
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Not finding a Walter Cowan on Valuation Rolls in Dornoch 1905/15/20 although there's a William?
Annie
Does it say anything regarding cowen contractors Annie.
Diarmuid.
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Unfortunately not, it was only the index with name & address but I used a couple of credits to view it & this man's a Shepherd
COWAN WILLIAM
Inhabitant Occupier
HOUSE EVELIX, DORNOCH
1917
VR012000015-
Annie
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It's possible Walter Cowan, Contractor was based elsewhere although had 'contract' work in Dornoch ie. if he didn't live/work from there he wouldn't be on the VRs there?
Annie
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It's possible Walter Cowan, Contractor was based elsewhere although had 'contract' work in Dornoch ie. if he didn't live/work from there he wouldn't be on the VRs there?
Annie
Yes it's possible that Walter Cowan contractors came from elsewhere in Scotland my great grandfather Christopher came from Dublin working in a small Scottish village at the time , Annie
Diarmuid.
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There are numerous Walter Cowans (surprisingly)! but all miles away from Dornoch at the time & you have to view the VRs to find out their occs. as they're not listed on the indexes
Annie
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How sure are you it was Dornoch (Sutherland) & not Dornock (Dumfries)?
Found this one (Dumfries)
COWAN WALTER
Inhabitant Occupier
HOUSE ENZIEHOLM, WESTERKIRK
1915
VR009700043-
Annie
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Also a Jordan in the Dumfries area same time.
JORDAN JOSEPH
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE OLD GEORGE CLOSE 33 HIGH STREET, DUMFRIES
1915
VR002400025-
Annie
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There are numerous Walter Cowans (surprisingly)! but all miles away from Dornoch at the time & you have to view the VRs to find out their occs. as they're not listed on the indexes
Annie
Thanks for your time and help Annie , I will track him down one thing about the past there's always a paper trail
Diarmuid
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I had a quick check through the Dornock, Dumfries VRs & both surnames appear 1905/15/20
Is it likely for Christopher to have been related to Joseph Jordan?
It just seems a strange coincidence both surnames are in the same area/same eras?
Annie
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I had a quick check through the Dornock, Dumfries VRs & both surnames appear 1905/15/20
Is it likely for Christopher to have been related to Joseph Jordan?
It just seems a strange coincidence both surnames are in the same area/same eras?
Did both surnames appear ie Jordan or Christopher jordan, and Joseph Jordan? I've no idea if Christopher had a relative there or left Dublin with one Annie.
Annie
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Sorry it wasn't clear, both surnames Jordan & Cowan are on the VRs.
Not Christopher but a Joseph Jordan & a Walter Cowan both Dumfries areas.
Annie
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Hi
Looking for any information regarding my great grandfather Christopher jordan born Dublin 6 Jan 1870, lived at 5 grants row lower mount street Dublin , he was shot during the 1916 rising in Dublin on the 29th April 1916,while home on holidays, he worked in dornoch Scotland his employer was Walter cowen contractors , Christopher was a plumber and gas fitter, for that company. He work for Walter cowen from 1915 till his death, Christopher was to head back to dornoch after the Easter break in 1916, but died so never made it ,when he was killed he left a wife and six children.so any information on Christopher or Walter cowen contractors regarding Christopher would be brilliant or his sailing back and forward to Scotland,not to sure if he sailed on boat from Dublin or Belfast
Diarmuid
Any help Scotland
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Hi
Looking for any information regarding my great grandfather Christopher jordan born Dublin 6 Jan 1870, lived at 5 grants row lower mount street Dublin , he was shot during the 1916 rising in Dublin on the 29th April 1916,while home on holidays, he worked in dornoch Scotland his employer was Walter cowen contractors , Christopher was a plumber and gas fitter, for that company. He work for Walter cowen from 1915 till his death, Christopher was to head back to dornoch after the Easter break in 1916, but died so never made it ,when he was killed he left a wife and six children.so any information on Christopher or Walter cowen contractors regarding Christopher would be brilliant or his sailing back and forward to Scotland,not to sure if he sailed on boat from Dublin or Belfast
Diarmuid
Any help in dornoch even regarding Walter cowen contractors
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There's one crucial feature of Irish immigration to Britain that you should be aware of: there are no passenger lists of people who crossed the Irish Sea by ship.........They were, to all intents and purposes, internal migrants.
This is because Ireland was a part of Britain until 1922;
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/Irish-immigration-to-Britain.html
ev
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There's one crucial feature of Irish immigration to Britain that you should be aware of: there are no passenger lists of people who crossed the Irish Sea by ship.........They were, to all intents and purposes, internal migrants.
This is because Ireland was a part of Britain until 1922;https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/Irish-immigration-to-Britain.html
ev
Thanks for that information
Diarmuid
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A bit earlier than your dates but may be connected to Walter Cowan although you would need to do some digging as none of these were born in Dornoch.
1901
Skibo Barracks, Dornoch, Sutherland (I couldn’t find anything about this place)
Robert Cowan 20 b Ayr, Ayrshire, Plumber
Source Citation
Parish: Dornoch; ED: 5; Page: 9; Line: 15; Roll: CSSCT1901_13
Others listed & born different places had these occupations;
Blacksmiths
Electrical Engineers
File Fevers (The original image would confirm what this is)?
Heating Engineers
Joiner Apprentice
Joiners
Mosaic Worker
Sculptor
Original on scotlandspeople.gov.uk
COWAN ROBERT 20
1901
047/ 5/ 9 Dornoch, Sutherland
Also;
COWAN JOHN HOPE 21
1911
047/ 4/ 8 Dornoch, Sutherland
You would need to look at the original to see where he was living & his occ.
He’s traceable on scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Annie
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A bit earlier than your dates but may be connected to Walter Cowan although you would need to do some digging as none of these were born in Dornoch.
I not sure Annie if Walter cowen was born in dornoch or if he worked there with his company 1915＿16
1901
Skibo Barracks, Dornoch, Sutherland (I couldn’t find anything about this place)
Robert Cowan 20 b Ayr, Ayrshire, Plumber
Source Citation
Parish: Dornoch; ED: 5; Page: 9; Line: 15; Roll: CSSCT1901_13
Others listed & born different places had these occupations;
Blacksmiths
Electrical Engineers
File Fevers (The original image would confirm what this is)?
Heating Engineers
Joiner Apprentice
Joiners
Mosaic Worker
Sculptor
Original on scotlandspeople.gov.uk
COWAN ROBERT 20
1901
047/ 5/ 9 Dornoch, Sutherland
Also;
COWAN JOHN HOPE 21
1911
047/ 4/ 8 Dornoch, Sutherland
You would need to look at the original to see where he was living & his occ.
He’s traceable on scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Annie
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The angle I was suggesting was, none of the people on the 1901 census were born in Dornoch i.e. only working there.
Walter Cowan may or may not have been working there himself & as the census was only 1 night in 1 yr it's impossible to speculate anything.
He may have been the 'Boss' of the company, coming & going at different times although not actually living there hence my suggestion of doing a bit of digging.
The lad on the 1911 census was born/married/died in Scotland i.e. traceable as to a possible link with Walter.
I haven't looked for Robert Cowan yet as he was earlier but also John Hope Cowan was easier to trace with having a middle name.
There may be no connection at all with either Cowans but that's part of genealogy, digging to find out possibilities.
Annie
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COWAN JOHN HOPE 21
1911
047/ 4/ 8 Dornoch, Sutherland
You would need to look at the original to see where he was living & his occ.
He’s traceable on scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Just to clarify, there are no transcriptions of the Scottish 1911 census' anywhere.
Annie
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The angle I was suggesting was, none of the people on the 1901 census were born in Dornoch i.e. only working there.
Walter Cowan may or may not have been working there himself & as the census was only 1 night in 1 yr it's impossible to speculate anything.
Thanks Annie
Diarmuid
He may have been the 'Boss' of the company, coming & going at different times although not actually living there hence my suggestion of doing a bit of digging.
The lad on the 1911 census was born/married/died in Scotland i.e. traceable as to a possible link with Walter.
I haven't looked for Robert Cowan yet as he was earlier but also John Hope Cowan was easier to trace with having a middle name.
There may be no connection at all with either Cowans but that's part of genealogy, digging to find out possibilities.
Annie
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Can I just ask why you're quoting everything as it's a bit confusing at times, your replies are hard to find? No reply in your last quote?
Annie
Edit...I see your reply now ;)
Best to add your reply at the bottom, easier to see
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Can I just ask why you're quoting everything as it's a bit confusing at times, your replies are hard to find? No reply in your last quote?
Annie
Edit...I see your reply now ;)
Best to add your reply at the bottom, easier to see
Oh sorry Annie , yes going by the Dublin metropolitan police report after Christopher jordan death on April 29th 1916 there reports states that Christopher worked for Walter cowen,s contractors in dornoch Scotland and was home holidays for the Easter , will I send you report Annie
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If you want to post a cropped image of the wording re Walter Cowan that's fine.
It's difficult to know exactly how to interpret the wording;
"Christopher worked for Walter cowen,s contractors in dornoch Scotland"
To me this could mean either of 2 things :-\
Christopher was working in Dornoch for Walter Cowan's Contractors (who were based in Dornoch)
or
Christopher was working in Dornoch for Walter Cowan's Contractors (who were based elsewhere)?
I can't find a Walter Cowan (with a wide window) in either;
1901 census/1905 vrs/1911 census/1915 vrs/1920 vrs
I searched neighbouring counties with all of the above i.e. Sutherland/Caithness/Ross (& Cromarty) & I'm of the belief Walter was indeed from elsewhere but how he had work in Sutherland is anyones guess :-\
Annie
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Hmmm...I wonder if this is Walter Cowan in your quest?
Cowan Walter 3/11/1920
Contractor 6 Ancaster Drive, Anniesland, Glasgow, d. 21/04/1920 at Glasgow, testate.
Glasgow Sheriff Court Wills
SC36/51/188
&
Cowan Walter 3/11/1920
6 Ancaster Drive, Anniesland, Glasgow, d. 21/04/1920 at Glasgow, testate.
Glasgow Sheriff Court Inventories
SC36/48/314
Annie
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Walters' death appears to be one of 2 death entries on SP 1920 (Lanark) although geographically I believe the 1st to be most likely although he could have died away from home?
COWAN WALTER 81
1920
644/12 404 Hillhead
COWAN WALTER 74
1920
644/19 271 Shettleston (Lanark)
An obit would be good to find!
Annie
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A possible?
COWAN WALTER 61
1911
644/12 29/ 17 Hillhead, Lanark
Edit...or this which seems a better fit compared with age on death?
COWAN WALTER 71
1911
560/ 19/L 10 Cathcart, Lanark
Annie
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Hi
Annie
Sorry I was in work all day that some work you have been doing thank you, I have sent attachment of Christopher jordan.
Let me know you seen it
Diarmuid.
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Picture my great grandfather Christopher Jordan, great grandmother Elizabeth and daughter Mary Ellen , picture 1893 Dublin .
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Yes Diarmuid, the images are showing, lovely pic of Christopher, wife & child, so nice to have!
I found a Walter Cowan all through the census' beginning as a Book Seller (1871/1881)/Advertising Contractor (1891)/Adverlesing (Advertising) Agent (1901) i.e. if it's him he's climed the ladder through the yrs & seems to have done well!
It may be worth getting the Will & Inventory from SP to see what they say which may give an idea whether he's the correct man although it does look good?
Do you use Ancestry?
There's someone added a correct name on one of the mistranscriptions of his surname which was showing as 'Corran' & I'm wondering if she's connected?
Annie
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Yes now and again on ancestry, Annie , my cousin gave me the picture of Christopher many years ago, it's a hard nut to crack Walter cowen, Annie.
Diarmuid
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Book Seller (1871/1881)/Advertising Contractor (1891)/Adverlesing (Advertising) Agent (1901) i.e. if it's him he's climed the ladder through the yrs
Bookseller to advertising agent looks more like a slide down the snakes than a climb up the ladder ;)
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Annie
Is this Walter cowen would you say .
Diarmuid.
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It's looking good from the terminology "Contractor" but like anything it's difficult to tell without seeing the doc?
I'm a bit undecided as I may be reading & seeing something different from what Forfarian is seeing?
My take was this Walter (the one I've found) was as a Bookseller > Advertising Contractor > Advertising Agent > Plumbing Contractor & may have been self employed as we have today like a Contractor/Agency providing workers, receiving a high income & paying the workers just like a Contractor/Agency in this day, if such a thing was done then?
The Will Index isn't specific in what kind of 'Contractor' i.e. without seeing it you may always wonder :-\
However, he was well enough off to need & afford a will.
The amount for a Will or Inventory regardless of how many pages is £2.50 each but it's dependent on how keen you are to find out simply?
Annie
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Paying not the problem Annie; if you can tell me how to go about it to get a copy of will
Thanks
Diarmuid.
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You need to sign up (free) with www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Click on 'Search our records'
Scroll down to 'Search for people' & click
Then click on 'Legal Records'
Then click on 'Wills & Testaments'
Insert his name & the yr 1920
Hope you manage with my instructions ;D
I just hope he's your man!
Annie
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Thanks Annie
Diarmuid
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Rosinish dug out references to a Robert Cowan living at somewhere mysteriously called Skibo Barracks near Dornoch, along with many other skilled workers born elsewhere in Scotland. I’ve got a theory for what was going on here.
Andrew Carnegie, the famous son of Dunfermline who made good in America sold his massive steelworks there in 1901 making him the richest man in the world. He had purchased the near derelict Skibo Castle in Sutherland and engaged Scottish architects Ross and Macbeth to transform the site into a huge baronial mansion, with all its outbuildings, with most of the work being carried out between 1899 and 1903. He spent astronomical sums of money ensuring all the work was carried out to the very highest standards on this huge structure including the most advanced plumbing that money could buy, much imported from America. There was also a glass roofed swimming pavilion with a full length Olympic sized indoor swimming pool with attached Turkish baths, all of the most luxurious standard. The first electric lift in the UK was installed by no less a person than Otis himself and the castle had its own power station. Such was the stir that this project created that even King Edward VII visited to see for himself and pick up ideas for Buckingham Palace.
Clearly large numbers of highly skilled workmen had to be sourced and few could be found locally so contracts would have been awarded to distant companies to provide a workforce to be housed on site. All of the plumbers were born in Ayrshire. Today we tend to think of the word Barracks being a military term but at that time the word was used widely to refer to high density accommodation, often for the very poorest levels of society. The term had certainly been used locally for accommodation for the poor provided by the Duke of Sutherland in Dornoch and Loth. Apart from the Skibo Barracks there were also barracks for workmen at nearby Overskibo.
Given the scale and complexity of the wider plumbing installation it seems likely that once the castle was up and running the original contractors had an ongoing maintenance arrangement of sorts and there may even have been a small permanent presence. Perhaps there were upgradings and additions from time to time.
Imber
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Thanks Imber...
What an interesting read indeed!
I can't believe I enjoy reading such things so much as I absolutely detested History at school possibly because it seemed fictional :-\
Annie
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I absolutely detested History at school possibly because it seemed fictional :-\
So did I, because it was always boring stuff like taxes and acts of parliament and writing essays. Quite enjoyed the kings, queens and battles, and never had a problem with dates. Loathed Scripture/Religious Knowledge though.
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Got stuff from Scottish archive today Annie got will and death cert Walter cowan died at the ripe old age of 81 there a lot to look at .
Diarmuid.
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Great to hear Diarmuid but...
Do you think this is your man?
Annie
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I absolutely detested History at school possibly because it seemed fictional :-\
So did I, because it was always boring stuff like taxes and acts of parliament and writing essays. Quite enjoyed the kings, queens and battles, and never had a problem with dates. Loathed Scripture/Religious Knowledge though.
If I'm being completely honest, there's little I recall from my lessons...in one ear & out the other ;D
Boring is an understatement in my book although now I wish I'd been more enthusiastic :-[
C'est la vie :D
Annie
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Don't understand Annie
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Don't understand Annie
Ditto ;D
Do you mean you don't understand my question 'do you think this is your man' i.e. the employer of Christopher?
Or...
Do you not understand the Will?
Did you get the Inventory?
Annie
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Yes got will Walter had fingers in a lot of company's Scotland England and else where know as a contractor own many houses he lived in No6 ancaster drive Anniesland, he had 2 sons there one Robert also a Walter and a daughter , the inventory is 3 pages long , his will about the same Annie.i got a copy of death cert. I send information to you tomorrow if you wish
Diarmuid
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That's good as I'm glad I didn't lead you down/up the wrong path!
Such a pity you couldn't find anything on Christopher though :(
Sounds interesting from what you say!
Annie
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Thanks Annie for your kind help I send information on tomorrow
Diarmuid
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Just some further thoughts on the Robert Cowan uncovered by Rosinish at Skibo Barracks in the 1901 census. There were ten plumbers, including Robert, at Skibo. As I mentioned earlier, all had been born in Ayrshire and all bar one were in their teens or early twenties, clearly working for a contractor based in Ayrshire. Turns out that Robert was the son of a Samuel Cowan, a Master Plumber based in Ayr. Samuel owning an Ayr company of sanitary engineers etc called McIlwrath & Cowan. It must have been of some size for as early as the 1861 census John McIlwrath was employing fourteen men and fourteen boys, although he had died before 1901 and Cowan retained the company name.
Clearly all this points to Cowan having an installation contract at Skibo Castle, Dornoch in 1901 so could be described as a contractor. It seems a distinct possibility that the Cowans also had a maintenance contract to ensure that the complex installations at Skibo Castle continued to function which could perhaps explain why Christopher was there in 1916. Ayr obviously had easy links to Ireland which might explain how he ended up in Scotland then later was sent up to work at Dornoch. But having said all that there does not seem to be a Walter Cowan involved. I don’t want to confuse matters but it may just be worth considering how reliable the information in the police report was. They managed to spell Cowan wrongly, perhaps. Did they get the forename wrong? What sources are there for the name Walter Cowen apart from the police report?
Imber
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No other information on Christopher in dornoch with Cowan's other than the police report in Dublin in 1916 , but Robert Cowan is Walter cowan son , so that's where the mix up could be am I right in saying that his may be the case , is that what you think . Imber
Annie has done lot of digging for me.
Diarmuid
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I don’t want to confuse matters but it may just be worth considering how reliable the information in the police report was. They managed to spell Cowan wrongly, perhaps. Did they get the forename wrong? What sources are there for the name Walter Cowen apart from the police report?
Imber, your message wasn't only interesting but shines a different light on the subject too!
You have raised some good & valid points for sure & looking back (now knowing Walter's age when he died), it does seems highly unlikely (although not impossible) he would be running a business at age approx. 77 yrs old in 1916?
Annie
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Diarmuid,
What was Walters' given occ. on his DC?
Annie
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What was the name of wife (on DC) & daughter (is she named on the will), it well help trace Walter (hopefully) in earlier census'?
Annie
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Diarmuid...
The Walter I have been following which I posted looks to be out of the running when you consider where he was born & living throughout his entire life;
(b c1839 - 1842) was born Denny, Stirlingshire (consistently), wife May/Mary N
Children (maybe not them all)?;
Robert Neil (middle name taken from Probate)
Mary J
John N
Walter
James N
Jessie M
"Book Seller (1871/1881)/Advertising Contractor (1891)/Adverlesing (Advertising) Agent (1901)"
1901 living Blythswood, Glasgow
1891 " Gorbals, Glasgow
1881 " Govan, Lanark
1871 " Glasgow, Lanark
1861 " Denny, Stirling
1851 " "
1841 (not found)
My sincere apologies as although this Walter was a 'Contractor' it doesn't look as though he was connected with Christopher :-[
Annie
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Yes it says Mary Neil on death cert for Walter , so it back to the drawing board Annie not to worry diarmuid, I still have the police report from 1916, maybe that's the only connection I find with Scotland.
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Leaving aside just for a moment the problem of identifying Cowan I guess Diarmuid may be wondering why Christopher came to be working in Scotland and so it might be helpful to attempt to place Christopher’s presence in Scotland into some sort of historical context. Plumbers would have lost a lot of their young men being mobilised as reservists or territorials or even volunteering after the outbreak of war in 1914. As it became apparent that more men were needed there were more initiatives to sign men up. Skilled men could often go straight in to the Army Service Corps and be paid much more than the infantry. However, despite all the various initiatives it became apparent that many more men were required and so in January 1916 the Government introduced conscription throughout the United Kingdom, wtih the exception of Ireland. And so it was that Christopher, free from social or legal pressures to enlist, probably already working in Scotland to help fill gaps, could continue to work in Scotland as even more plumbers were lost to conscription. Women filled many of the jobs vacated by men but there would have been few who could quickly replace a fully qualified plumber trained in dealing with the more complex systems and many Irish men were recruited to fill technical vacancies.
Imber