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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: johneowens on Thursday 06 September 18 11:55 BST (UK)
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I've started a new post since the existing Labour Corps-WW1 forum seems to be a little crowded.
I am trying to trace the war "route" of the husband of my grandmother's sister, Kazia Esther "Cassie" (nee Allen) who married Mark Royell "Roy" McConville (b.7 Sep 1887) on Christmas day 1916 in Liverpool as a possible explanation as to why Cassie is recorded in about September 1917 as a nurse/doctor's assistant at the Rochford Hospital, Essex, which is a long way away from Liverpool. Cassie subsequently died nearby in Essex aged 33 in the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic.
The only military records for Roy I have found on Ancestry are from the Medals Index (no date), which shows:
(King's?) Liverpool Regiment Pte 78408
Labour Corps 53690
I keyed both of these numbers into the Liverpool Museum's website for the Liverpool Regiment, but no joy.
Somewhere, I have picked up that the 23rd Infantry (Works) Battalion converted into 1st Labour Battalion of the Labour Corps, but this information may be irrelevant.
It may help to know that, before they were married, both Cassie and Roy had previous experiences as asylum nurses at Winwick Mental Asylum/Hospital, Winwick, Lancs.
Admittedly, all this is a bit of long shot but any help with Roy's war "journey" appreciated. Presumably, since he apparently received a medal, he was assigned to France.
In anticipation, many thanks.
Best wishes
John
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You are correct (sort of). His LC number was allocated to the 25th. KL
IR which became the 90th. Coy. LC. on it's formation in 1917.
There's quite a good snapshot of the 90th. here:
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/638-90th-labour-company/
All of the below are where the 90th. operated. These can all be found South of Arras roughly in the area of Cambrai.
FAVREVIL (Favreuil), FREMICOURT, FINS, NURLU, PERONNE, VOYENNES, CANIZY, ROYE, CARRE-PUITS, CAMON, LONGEAU, VECQUEMONT, LE CATEAU.
I take no credit for the above as this is John Starling's research from his book No Labour No Battle.
FAVREVIL (Favreuil) (H.16)>FREMICOURT-(I.25) on below map.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465155
FINS (V.12) on this map:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465206
NURLU (D.4):
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465290
PERRONNE (I.27):
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465278
VOYENNES (J.7/8):>CANIZY (J.28)
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465353
ROYE (M.27): (ignore the German trench systems this is a 1916 map. They were gone by 1918. I couldn't find a better map).
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465356
CARRE-PUITS: Don't know where this is.
CAMON: No map but on the outskirts of Amiens.
LONGEAU: See CAMON.
VECQUEMONT: No map but about 14 mls. East of LONGEAU on the R.Somme.
LE CATEAU: (K.34)
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465122
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Wow, Jim. I did not expect all this.
Many many thanks.
KLI, I guess, means King's Light Infantry? Yes?
And 25th means 25th Infantry (Works) Battalion or 25th Labour Company, King’s Liverpool Regiment. Are these the same?
So, if the 90th Labour Company, XIII Corps, 4th Army arrived in France in March 1917 and remained until April 1919, unless Roy was given compassionate leave to attend his wife (did it exist then?) or was sent home after the November 1918 Armistice, he may not have even known she was in hospital and would not have been able to attend her funeral in St. Helens, Lancs, 10 December 1918. Hmm. I'll check with themonsstar on the other post to see whether he has info from the Diary for December 1918. Good work by John Starling, huh?
I've also read elsewhere that the LCs were composed of men who were medically graded unfit for the fighting yet were frequently deployed for work within range of enemy guns, sometimes for lengthy periods, presumably did hard work in those locations, and were sometimes used as emergency infantry. Still, they were typically treated as second class soldiers.
So, to answer my original question, it seems that after Cassie and Roy were married, they opted in different ways to join the war effort. Unfortunately, however, I have no idea when Roy signed up although 29 Mar 17 seems a good bet as that's the date the 25th was formed, presumably in Liverpool.
Any further thoughts, Jim, would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again
Best
John
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Jim
I had been looking at this at the same time and can't quite reconcile what I read about the 25th Battalion King's Liverpool Regiment with your "25th. KLI (??) which became the 90th. Coy. LC. on it's formation in 1917.
Everything I consulted has the 25th Battalion formed out of 43rd Provisional Battalion in Jan 1917, in Sheringham and Sidestrand and going to France as a guard battalion in May 1918, joining 59 Bde in Jun 1918.
I did note that 26th Battalion was formed out of 44th Provisional and remained in Essex throughout.
MaxD
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Should read KLR sorry about that.
This is what I'm looking at.
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From the Museum of Liverpool, which agrees essentially with LLT:
23rd and 24th (Works) Battalions. Formed May and June 1916. 23rd at Prescot. In Mar. 1917 at Prescot and Hereford. April 1917 23rd Bn. became 1st Labour Bn. No record of 24th Bn. May have become 27th Bn.
25th Battalion T.F. On 1.1.17 43rd Provisional Bn. became 25th Bn. at Sheringham in 223rd Bde. 43rd Bn. had been formed in 1915 with Home Service personnel of T.F. Bns. By July 1917 at Sidestrand. 7.5.18 landed at Calais as a Garrison Guard Bn. and to 59th Div. at Estree Cauchie. 16.6.18 to 176th Bde. 59th Div. July 1918 title of Garrison Guard dropped. 11.11.18 176th Bde. 59th Div. Belgium: Velaines N.E. of Tournai.
26th Battalion T.F. On 1.1.17 44th Provisional Bn. in 218th Bde. 73rd Div., moving to Kelvedon, Essex, became 26th Bn. This bn. had been formed in 1915 with Home Service personnel of T.F. Bns. The 73rd Div. was broken up early in 1918 and the bn. was disbanded at Kelvedon on 29.3.18.
27th (Works) Battalion. Could have been renumbering of 24th Bn. April 1917 became 2nd Labour Bn.
27th (Home Service) Battalion. Formed on 27.4.18 at Sidestrand to replace 25th Bn. in 223rd Bde. Remained at Sidestrand
The nomenclature in the extract is strange 23rd Infantry Labour Company Liverpool etc - is that really the same as 23rd (Works) Battalion King's (Liverpool Regiment)?
MaxD
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The nomenclature in the extract is strange 23rd Infantry Labour Company Liverpool etc - is that really the same as 23rd (Works) Battalion King's (Liverpool Regiment)?
My thoughts too.
John Starling says:
Formed as 25th Labour Company King’s Liverpool Regiment
I don't think this is the same as the 25th. T.F. Batt.
They seem very elusive.
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Thinking aloud were these Lab. Coys. part of the Infantry Battalions & hived off to form L.C. Coys.
Maybe given temporary numbers prior to this.
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My feeling all along has been that as you have advised in the other similar threads, that without a service record, knowing which Liverpool Bn and then which Labour Corps Company this chap belonged to is not really 100% possible. His Liverpool number indicates overseas service with them (although we have both seen examples of a Home Service man going overseas with his number but not serving with the regiment once there) . He could have been 23rd or 24th (later 27th) and transferred to 1 or 2 Battalion Labour Corps but why not for example, any one of the service battalions and then off to some company or another of the Labour Corps. (I put that rhetorically to illustrate the only too well known problem)
Your thinking aloud may be on to something - more thought - although keeping in mind we might clarify the titles/numbers but we still don't know what Liverpool battalion our man was in!
MaxD
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What we can say for sure is that his number was allocated to the 90th. Coy.
I'm treading that well trodden path of service records.
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Looks as if some clarity re the Labour Corps is emerging in another place (as they say in Parliament).
MaxDi
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Hmm. Well, I'm glad we've got that sorted out, guys.
Many thanks and best wishes
John
PS. If you have any further thoughts, happy to have them.
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Found a couple of men going the route of KLR Infantry Battalions to a KLR Lab. Coy. & being transferred to the Lab. Corps.
Have you got their marriage cert. which might say which KLR Batt. he was in ?
If not at least you know where he was 1917-18.
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Yes, absolutely locates Roy.
Actually, their marriage certificate does not help. They married in Liverpool when Cassie was a hospital nurse and Roy a seaman. More useful is Cassie's death certificate "wife of Mark Roy McConville Private Labour Corps nc? 53690". This number matches that on his medal index card (see earlier post), the ref. for which is LC/101.B.33, page 3326 (Victory & British medals, Natl Archives, WO372/12). The Liverpool Reg number is 78408. My understanding is that for Roy to receive these medals, he would have had to enter an active theatre of war or to have left the UK for service overseas between 5 August 1914 and 11 November 1918, and to have completed 28 days mobilised service.
Thanks again.
Best
John
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Not quite, had he any pre 1916 service overseas he would have the 14 or 15 Star.
So overseas service 1916-18 with the KLR first as this is listed on his MIC. Only Regiments that a man served overseas with are listed.
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Ok. Many thanks for the further clarifications. Wish I had more information.
Best
John
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If he was a seaman Xmas 1916 the earliest he could have gone overseas is March 1917 & that's assuming he was called up straight afterwards.
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Jim
John Starling's list from the war diaries shows the 90th Labour Company, XIII Corps, 4th Army, was formed 29 March 1917 and arrived in France in 5 May 1917. My working theory then is that Roy was called up March 1917 and was deployed arrived to France with the 90th in 5 May 1917, likely some training in the interim.
Still, I'm left with the mystery of why Cassie was in Essex when she (and Roy) had a child (James Roye b. 1917). Will have to wait for the 1921 Census to find who looked after their son. Oral history from my mother (Cassie's niece) is that Roy was not well thought of by the family but that does not explain why she was in Essex when she came from Lancashire, unless she wanted/was required to contribute to the war effort - but then I've just discovered she qualified as a midwife in August 1918, 4 months before she died. Not much call for midwives in a war situation. Hmm.
Thanks anyway.
best
John
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They arrived in France in March.
There are lots of theories. He may have been called up Jan. 1916 & put into Special Reserve. This meant going back to his day job until required. Highly unlikely a single man would be able to dodge call up until 1917. It may be he was considered more use as a seaman at the time.
Roy didn't go overseas with the LC he went with the KLR & then transferred some time after.
He could have been transferred straight from the Infantry Base Depot (IBD) France or later.
In the absence of a service record theories are all there is.
However looking at his LC no. 53690 against the batch allocation 53401-54000 means he was 289th. on the list. The diary says the 90th. had 495 OR's at it's formation which indicates to me he was in the 25th. Lab. Coy. KLR when they transferred rather than being given a spare number at a later date.
Just another theory.
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... Yes, but probably a more informed theory than mine.
Roy is on the 1915 Electoral Register at Winwick Asylum as an attendant working with Cassie, also an attendant. I'm guessing that would not be a protected occupation; as you say, "highly unlikely a single man would be able to dodge call up until 1917." But, by December 1916, when they married, he had become a seaman, which presumably was protected, at least until 1917. Does that sound plausible?
Thanks again for the clarification re. which unit he enlisted with: "Roy didn't go overseas with the LC he went with the KLR & then transferred some time after." Presumably, you mean that after being called up in the Special Reserve in Jan 1916, in March 1917 he enlisted with the 25th. Lab. Coy. KLR in Liverpool, and then was likely deployed to France May 1917.
Best
John
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There were no protected occupations only protected industries & this was only after conscription.
Everything happened to him around the same time. Joining the KLR, going overseas, posting to the 25th. Lab. Coy. & transfer to the LC.
The route & timetable have been lost so no way of knowing for sure.
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Yep. That about sums it up.
Best
John
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... One more question, Jim1. Roy was born Sept 1887, which would make him 29 in December 1916, when he married, and probably when he was conscripted. Would being 29 preclude him from being assigned to a fighting unit rather than an LC - although as we know, sometimes the LCs were in range of German guns?
BTW, just discovered his wife Cassie was a Red Cross Trained Nurse deployed to France March 1916 to Mar 1917, by which time she would have been heavily pregnant - which might give me the answer to my original question, as to why she died in Essex rather than home in Lancashire.
Best
John
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Age wasn't a factor only fitness. The first batches of conscripts were single men then married men & finally married men with children. So he would have been called up pretty quickly. What happened to him after that we'll never know. My guess would be Special Reserve as he was a seaman Dec. 1916 but it's just a guess.
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Thanks again, Jim.
Best
John