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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: julefamily on Thursday 06 September 18 17:38 BST (UK)
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Hello: I am seeking help on locating the Family of
John Lockhart (about 1818)
Married: Isabella Campbell (1823)
2 children: John Keane Lockhart (1843- 1888) Arran, North Ayrshire _ A member of the Scottish Rifles
Married Helen Moffat (1842-1918) married 10 June 1869
their children :Edward 1864 Anderston, Scotland
John Archibald 1870 St Nicholas, Aberdeen
Fernancy Jane 1871 Lanarkshire
Isabella 1873 Morar, Madhya, Pradesh, India
James 1876
Ellen 1878 Glasglow
Ann 1881 Hamilton South Lankshire
Mary Francis 1882 - 1981 Hamilton, South Lankashire
Any information is appreciated. Specifically info on Isabella Campbell and spouse John Lockhart
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Have you found the family on the 1851 or 1861 census?
Scotlands People are not showing a John Keane Lockhart birth between 1840 - 1848 nor a marriage for his parents
You say that John K married 1869 but you show a child Edward born 1864?
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1871 census
1881 census
military service 1877
Above all on son John Keane Lockhart
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"John Keane Lockhart married Helen Moffat 10 June 1869"
Were both parents deceased at the time of the marriage?
Where were the family living at the time of the census' you listed?
Annie
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Should mention: John Keane Lockhart had a brother William
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Please show full 1871 details. How did they have a son b 1864 if they only married 1869?
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Do you know anything about William marriage/death & when/where was he born?
Annie
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Marriage of Helen Moffat and John Keane Lockhart on GS film 6035516 Dundee Angus Scotland
I have no other info on his parents.
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1871 - I have family at Lesmahagow
1869 marriage at Dundee, Angus,
1877 Hamilton Lanarkshire
I cannot comment why a child is born before their marriage ???
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As requested - please post full 1871 details
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The marriage from scotlandspeople will give info. on parents whether alive/deceased, mothers' maiden name, fathers' occ. & witnesses.
LOCKHART JOHN & MOFFAT HELEN 1869
282/1 107 St Peter
Where did both John & Helen die?
Annie
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I think this is a transcription error;
"Fernancy Jane 1871 Lanarkshire"
There's no birth similar on SP?
Annie
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Not finding the family in 1871 although I found another with same parents names in Lanark
1881 Living at Soldiers Barracks, Hamilton, Lanark
John Lockhart 39 b Beath, Ayr b c 1842 Head Occ. Private Soldier
Spouse Ellen Lockhart b Canon, Stirling (likely Carron)
John Lockhart 11 (b Aberdeen)
Isabella Lockhart 7 (b India, East)
James Lockhart 5 (b England)
Ellen Lockhart 3 (b Glasgow, Lanark)
William Lockhart 2 (b England)
No sign of "Fernancy Jane 1871 Lanarkshire" may have died?
Annie
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Looks as though John Jnr (John Archibald) joined the Scottish Rifles?
John Lockhart b Aberdeen enlisted aged 15 in 1885
Regiment Scottish Rifles
Regimental Number 1458
Annie
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Perhaps spending some credits at ScotlandsPeople will help, in addition to using the free indexes available on Family Search. The 1869 marriage record will tell you the parents names.
Edward Lockhart's parents were John Lockhart & Helen Traill
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F79H-GL6
They had a further 5 children, last one in 1873, all born in Anderston, Lanarkshire. This is not your couple.
Nell
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The last child listed, Mary Francis born 1882, was not John & Helen's child. Her parents were John Lockhart & Margaret Peat Lockhart:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT6H-ZD7
Nell
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This is William's birth reg - no christian name shown
GRO mmn search Lockhart/Moffat shows a birth in 1878 Farnham. GRO does not show a christian name and nor does freebmd but it fits with William's age in 1881
Births December qtr 1878
Lockhart Male Farnham 2a 106
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I think it may be worth knowing which child on her list Jule is descended from as the trail may be on the wrong track?
Annie
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I am seeking help on locating the Family of
John Lockhart (about 1818)
Married: Isabella Campbell (1823)
Where did you get this information from re: birthyears? There is no marriage on SP or Family Search and no 1851 entry to support the parents names/birthyears given.
I think it may be worth knowing which child on her list Jule is descended from as the trail may be on the wrong track?
Agreed- it has already been shown that 2 of the children listed belong to completely different families
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Mary Frances Lockhart 1882-1981 was my husband's Grandmother. She married a Philippine from a wealthy family. They were married in San Francisco, Calif. May 16, 1902. Announced in the San Francisco "Call" newspaper Her spouse was Vicente Lucio Flores Legarda. 1873 -1956 He was an accomplished architect schooled in Glasgow. Mary Frances married 3 times. 2nd husband was John Alfred Lee and 3rd husband was Carey S Lord.
My husband;s fathers birth name was Vicente Benito Vernon Legarda 1903 - 1966. He changed his name to John Vernon Lee when he was a teenager - young man,
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Family history has Helen's surname as Moffat
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1871 census 104/039 microfilm Nat Archives UK, family search
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Do you have Mary Francis's marriage or death certificate, and if so does it name her parents?
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As requested - please post full 1871 details
1871 census 104/039 microfilm Nat Archives UK, family search
I think Carole was requesting that you provide a transcript to make it easier for us to refer to it.
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Family history has Helen's surname as Moffat
Is that recent family history? eg, has a family member undertaken some family history research in the past and perhaps come to this (incorrect?) conclusion?
Regarding the information you have already supplied - is this your own research or did you get it from someone else? Do you, or they, have documents or other evidence to back up your findings?
There seem to be a few inconsistencies so perhaps going back to the beginning might be worthwhile to ensure you are tracing the correct family.
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So Mary Frances Lockhart is the apparent link back to the people you named in your first post.
Looking for her in the index on FamilySearch and ScotlandsPeople came up with Mary Frame Lockhart, which (without purchasing the image) I felt was probably her. Frame could be a poor transcription of Frances. Her birth date is given as 25 Oct 1881. Is this correct - do you have her birth date at all to compare? Although I suspect not since you only gave a year of 1882.
The previous child listed in your first post is Ann with a birth year of 1881. Looking for her in the FamilySearch index, she is definitely the child of John Lockhart & Helen Moffatt and her birth date is 7 April 1881.
The only Mary Lockhart that I can see born in Hamilton in 1882 is shown in the ScotlandsPeople index but not FamilySearch. And there is no middle name of Frances :-\
May I ask where the the birthplace of Hamilton came from? Is it from an official record?
The census references or addresses (especially since searching we cannot be sure whether the family was in Scotland or England at any given census) where the family has been found would be useful to know so that we can look to see what other clues might be gleaned.
I'm having real trouble tracking where the Fernancy Jane reference has come from. I can see that the family of John & Helen (Moffat) moved from Scotland to England to India, back to England and then Scotland again from the 1881 census record, but the addition of this child in 1871 so soon after John in 1870 is puzzling, especially since I can't find any likely looking child on SP or FamilySearch. Can you enlighten us as to where you found this?
We all love puzzles, but I'm concerned that we may be following the wrong path here.
Nell
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Looking for her in the index on FamilySearch and ScotlandsPeople came up with Mary Frame Lockhart, which (without purchasing the image) I felt was probably her.
Nell
From SP:
Mary Frame Lockhart
(The middle name does look like FRAME but could be France. Second letter is hard to discern but does not look like other "r"s on the page. It definitely ends with and "e").
Born: October 25th 5PM Hallhome,(?) Newphlar*,(?) Lanark
Father: John Lockhart, farmer
Mother: Margaret Lockhart, MS Peat
(they married Nov 9th 1880 in Lanark)
*Though the word looks like Newphlar though this must not be right - I think some research is needed to determine the correct place name.
Added: presume the place is Nemphlar :)
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I've just realised that you have indicated a year of death for John Keane Lockhart (where does the Keane appear, please) in your first post - 1888.
Three deaths on ScotlandsPeople where the ages are 67, 49, 64 and 0 - so not any of them. But there is one in England in Morpeth RD, but he is aged 53 (allegedly). Still no Keane or initial K in the name and 53 or so is the wrong age for your man. The given birth year is cir 1843 so this one doesn't look likely either. Did he die overseas? Did the family emigrate?
The births/baptisms of John A, Isabella, James, Ellen/Helen and Ann all appear in the Army register of baptisms and births. The father's regiment is shown as the 26th Regiment. Fernancy Jane and Mary Frances do not appear at all in this index.
The 26th Regiment ceased to exist in 1881/2 when it amalgamated with the 90th Regiment (Perthshire Volunteers) to form the Cameronian Scottish Rifles (modern name).
A John Lockhart enlisted in the 26th Regiment in 1860 at the age of 20, so he would have been born cir 1840 and his birthplace was Irvine, Ayr. He left the army in March 1882 following his second period of engagement and his wife was Ellen Moffat. The place of discharge was Hamilton, so it is possible that they continue to live there and that Mary was born later that year.
Nell
Edit- just realised that the 49 year old who died in 1888 could be that John, given the revised date of birth.
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If Mary Frances = Mary "Frame", then her parents are John and Margaret not John and Helen, so the army family are the wrong family .... aren't they? :-\
:)
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Slightly off topic, but in case it is of relevance, I have found a Hallcroft and a Halltown, but could not locate a Hallhouse.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17&lat=55.6818&lon=-3.8217&layers=168&right=BingHyb
I did wonder if Hallcroft = Hallhouse. :-\
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If Mary Frances = Mary "Frame", then her parents are John and Margaret not John and Helen, so the army family are the wrong family .... aren't they? :-\
:)
That does look to be the case, but the Frances as a middle name could have appeared later. I think we might have to wait for jule to try to give us a bit of a steer as to how the connections were made in the first place. :-\
Nell
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Coincidentally, further down in the baptism register there is birth registered with the surname "FRAM". It was quite common for surnames to be used as middle names, particularly in Scotland. Maybe Fram/e morphed into Frances or perhaps it was a conscious decision if Mary disliked her middle name.
I would like to ask the OP how many instances of Frances as a middle name that she has.
What is her full name on any documents relating to her immigration to the USA?
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As John Lockhart and Margaret Peat married in 1880 you would expect to see them prior to the birth of Mary "Frame", in the 1881 Scottish census, but I can't easily spot them. As it is only transcriptions on Ancestry, and some of them leave a bit to be desired, that may explain why.
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I think this is them:
Midtown, Lanark
648 ED 12 p 7
John LOCKHART 32 b Lanark Head Farmers Son
Maggie LOCKHART 23 b Lanark, wife
Nell
Added: his father might have been Robert, a farmer who appears a few lines before them in the schedules.
In 1891, a Helen Peat is visiting John & Margaret Lockhart. In 1881 she is visiting a John Watson and his wife. John Watson's brother in law is named Andrew Frame !!!!! (if I've got the right one of course) And Margaret Peat's mother might well have been Mary Frame (married to James Peat).
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Well found Nell. Very interesting indeed about the "Frame" connection. :)
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John Lockhart marries Margaret FRAME PEAT in 1880!!!! ;D
That makes me even more keen for the OP to tell us how many examples she has of Mary's middle name being Frances.
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Well, either Mary Frances Lockhart is not the Mary Frame Lockhart that we have found or she is a different person altogether - and we haven't found her yet.
Since she is the apparent link to earlier generation, finding her birth is rather important.
Nell
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Marriage 9 Nov 1880 Lady Acre Lanark
John Lockhart 32 marries Margaret Frame Peat 23. John is a farmer. Margaret is a teacher. Both signed.
John's father David Lockhart, farmer
John's mother Agnes Lockhard, prevously Lockhart MS Young
John's address Nemphlar (I think)
Margaret's father James Peat, sculptor (interesting :) )
Mother mary Frame deceased
Margaret's address Lady Acre
Wits: John Elder and Jessie Peat
Added: I just hope this is the right family. :)
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Well, either Mary Frances Lockhart is not the Mary Frame Lockhart that we have found or she is a different person altogether - and we haven't found her yet.
Since she is the apparent link to earlier generation, finding her birth is rather important.
Nell
Agreed. I think I will leave this for now until the OP returns to answer some of our questions and hopefully clarify things.
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Do you have Mary Francis's marriage or death certificate, and if so does it name her parents?
Hi all can't help with the birth for Mary Francis Lockhart but there is this record
Social Security Applications Claims index
Mary Francis Lord ( Mary Francis Lockhart )
Birth date 11 October 1884 Hamilton Uk
Father John Lockhart
Mother Ellen Moffat
Social Security Death index
Mary Lord birth date 18 October 1882
Death May 1981
New Hampshire USA
Also on www.findagrave.com
Rosie
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Only birth in that period in Hamilton (no middle name);
LOCKHART MARY 1882
647/ 955 Hamilton
Annie
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I fear you have fallen victim to the reorganisations of local government in 1975 and later.
Until 1975, and therefore for historical research purposes, neither 'Ayrshire and Arran' nor 'North Ayrshire' existed as local government entities. Nor did 'Argyll and Bute'.
The Isle of Arran is part of the historic county of Bute, so if you are looking for historical records of anyone in Arran, concentrate on Bute and forget about Ayrshire, as it will only serve to confuse.
No part of either Ayrshire or Bute is or ever was in Lanarkshire.
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"Mary Frances married 3 times"
Can you confirm any parent details from either of the 3 please as it's the only way forward?
Annie
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This looks like the UK departure record for Mary Lockhart and her sister Annie Lockhart
Departure date Glasgow 21 June 1900
Going to New York
Ship SS Anchoria
California Naturalization Records
Petition Record
Annie Odal birth date 7 April 1884 Hamilton Scotland ( formally Villafranca ) nee Lochart
61 Years old address 1220 S,Alvardo Street Los Angeles
Widow of Vincent Odal
She has a daughter Anita F born 7/9/1909 San francisco
She arrived New York 2 July 1900 ship SS Anchoria
Last Residence in Scotland Grangemouth
Social Security Claims forms
Annie Lockhart Odal
Birth date 7 April 1883 Hamilton U K
Father John Lockhart
Mother Helen Moffat
There is a birth for Ann Lockhart 7 April 1881 Hamilton Lanarkshire
Father John Lockhart
Mother Helen Moffat
Rosie
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Arran genealogy here: http://www.arranmuseum.co.uk/research/genealogy/
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Mary Lockhart, daughter of John Lockhart & Helen Moffat born 18 Oct 1882 in Hamilton. No middle name recorded.
John Lockhart, husband of Helen Moffat, died of cancer 31 May 1888 aged 49 at Royal Infirmary Glasgow. Informant was his brother. Both William and John were residents of Rothesay at that time. Parents names are given as Archibald Lockhart and Isabella Campbell, both deceased. Archibald was a handloom weaver.
Given that William was the informant, one presumes that William gave the correct information.
So ignore Mary Frame Lockhart (although an interesting sideline). Apologies for getting side-tracked.
Nell
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1871 - I have family at Lesmahagow
Can you please post the details (as previously asked) of who was in the household, names, ages, occupations, where stated as born, relationships & the address so we can check things for ourselves?
Your info. is too vague in most instances where relevant info. is needed (where asked) but we now have a detailed summary of the not so relevant unless info. can be gleaned from the marriages of Mary & sister Anne/Annie?
If you genuinely want help, you need to help us to get there with all relevant info. known.
I'm just curious as to how/where the names of the children from the different families emerged from as children of John & Helen/Ellen & who was "Fernancy Jane 1871 Lanarkshire", where did you find her name, on what document, where & when as it seems to have been transcribed wrong?
Annie
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Page 6, and there are still as many unanswered questions as on page 1.
Shame about Mary Frame - I was enjoying that family. :)
I think we need more from julefamily before continuing.
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I just came home from hospital Please bear with me. I am giving you the information that I have. It may not be as complete as you wish, but It is all that I have.
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This looks to be Mary's 2nd (?) Marriage details:
John Alfred Lee, 51 and single (est birth yr 1867 in Montgomery, AL)
Marriage on 20 Jul 1918 in Manhattan, New York
Parents John Lee and Miriam Sims
Spouse's Mary Lockhart, 35 and single (est birth yr 1883 in Scotland)
Parents John and Helen Moffat
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:246Q-49F
Monica
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Rosie17 Thank you - You located my spouse's granny. Thank you everyone for your assistance. Still have no data on her grandparents. But thank you all for your help
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I just came home from hospital Please bear with me. I am giving you the information that I have. It may not be as complete as you wish, but It is all that I have.
Hi Jule. Sorry to hear you have been in hospital.
I don't think people are pressing you for more information. Rather they are asking you where you got the information that you already have. There is a difference. ;)
When you have time, if you can read through the thread and answer the questions that have been asked, that will help us to help you further. :)
As an example, in the 1871 cenus you say you have the family in Lesmahagow .... People are spending hours trying to find this family in this census in this place, without success, which is why it is very useful if you can help us out a bit. Keeping with this example, as you know, the Scottish census on pay sites like Ancestry is transcription only. To see the originals you need to pay for credits on Scotlands People. The transcriptions are often not good which can make finding people impossible. Perhaps you have a copy of the census which you purchased from Scotlands People which you can share with us?
There is no rush - answer the questions at your own pace. Even if you were given a family tree from someone else, and you don't know where they found certain pieces of information, let us know, and if the tree is online, could you please provide a link to it? :)
Added: great find Monica.
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Hi Jule,
Likewise, sorry to hear you've been in hospital & hope it's not through stress with our questions :D
Ruskie,
You've explained the situation clearly, yes we only need confirmation of where the info. given was found & equally, yes it will help us to help further as there's always info. to gain no matter how little or how irrelevant it can sometimes seem to others.
One e.g. is, we have 2 different places of birth for John, 1 being 'Arran' as quoted & the other being Beith which is on the 1881 census.
Having various census' can help to determine which is most likely depending on the frequency stated i.e. 1 may say Arran & 5 may say Beith (just an example of the importance of things).
As Ruskie says, at your own pace as we're all ready & willing to help when we know what info. needs further investigation if you don't know where the info. was found i.e. by someone else?
You may have been given wrong info. which is actually harder to try & find than searching from a basic outline of correct info. if that makes sense?
Wishing you well soon!
Annie
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Social Security Applications Claims index
Mary Francis Lord ( Mary Francis Lockhart )
Birth date 11 October 1884 Hamilton Uk
Father John Lockhart
Mother Ellen Moffat
Social Security Death index
Mary Lord birth date 18 October 1882
Death May 1981
New Hampshire USA
BC (scotlandspeople) i.e. not a transcription;
Mary Lockhart b 18 Oc 1882 at 20A Bickford Street, Hamilton, Lanark
Parents John Lockhart (General Labourer) & Helen Lockhart (m/s Moffat) married 10 Jun 1869 Dundee
We now have Dob confirmed Rosie ;)
Annie
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It is nice of you to use your own credits to download that certificate Annie. :)
I think it is essential to have that official record.
It looks like Mary could have been unsure of her exact dob or sometimes stretched the truth for some reason, even adding a middle name. (Correct on the death index though, which is more often the one which is wrong)
I wonder if John Lockhart did the same, which may be why he is so hard to track down?
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Yes Ruskie, I feel genuine docs. especially for direct lines are very important as you will see from this entry!
Marriage;
10 Jun 1869
John Lockhart 28 yrs (b c 1841), Bachelor (Private, 26th Foot Regt)
Parents - Archibald Lockhart, Woolen Weaver (deceased) & Isabella Lockhart (m/s Stewart)
Helen Moffat 21 yrs, Domestic Servant
Parents - William Moffat, Blacksmith, Master (Deceased) & Margaret Moffat (m/s Hart)
Witnesses, James Lockhart & Jane Clark or Moffat
Now wondering if Isabella (mother of John & William) remarried & now to find out whether her actual maiden name was indeed Campbell or Stewart?
Didn't brother William register his fathers' death & his mothers' m/s was Campbell?
Reasons why genuine docs are so important as a lot of info. is left out on transcriptions.
Annie
Add...It was also nice of you & Nell to use your SP credits in earlier searches for the truth when things were harder to work with (lack of middle name & birth yrs not corresponding)!!!
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Meanwhile, adding this as a possible relative with possibly a misinterpretation of surname :-\
May come in handy at a later date?
Valuation Rolls;
LOCHHEAD JAMES
Tenant Occupier
SHOP AND BAKEHOUSE 23 BICKFORD ST, HAMILTON
1885 (a few yrs after Mary was born at Bickford St)
VR003800010-
Annie
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Excellent work Annie. ;D
That marriage certificate is very enlightening (and also takes the OP back another generation on both sides).
I can't recall the details of the d/c with mmn as Campbell, but I'm sure you are right. ;)
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Ruskie,
If you want to do quick searches, use (on your keyboard) Ctrl & F which brings up a wee box, type in whatever name or date you're looking for then use the down or up arrows, quick & easy, that's what I do. You can use the 'print' option at the top of the topic which doesn't mean you have to print it off but will give you all in order on one page rather than 6 pgs! ;)
Annie
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I often use Control F to find words in documents but have never thought to do so with rootschat threads. :-[
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I haven't been following this thread but have just now had a quick look. Nothing to add really only that there is no such street in Hamilton as Bickford St. There is a Beckford St. (The family name of the wife of the 10th Duke of Hamilton).
I can't help noticing that some Rootschatters are still spending their own money to do other people's research for them. I don't see the point in that!
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Army records on findmypast for John Lockhart
Enlisted 26 th Foot Regiment Glasgow 28 December 1862 occupation Labourer
Age 20 years and 6 months
Birth place Irvine Ayr
But still not finding him on Earlier census ???
Rosie
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Found John Lockhart in the 1871 Census Parkhurst Barracks Isle of White Hampshire
John Lockhart age 30 born Scotland soldier 26th regiment
Ellen Lockhart age 23 born Scotland
John Lockhart age 1 born Scotland
Rosie
Transcribed as Lockart
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1871 - I have family at Lesmahagow
1869 marriage at Dundee, Angus,
1877 Hamilton Lanarkshire
Found John Lockhart in the 1871 Census Parkhurst Barracks Isle of White Hampshire
John Lockhart age 30 born Scotland soldier 26th regiment
Ellen Lockhart age 23 born Scotland
John Lockhart age 1 born Scotland
Rosie
Transcribed as Lockart
Is this the same John Lockhart or am I getting my John Lockhart's mixed up? :-\
(brilliant find Rosie!!!!)
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John Lockhart, husband of Helen Moffat, died of cancer 31 May 1888 aged 49 at Royal Infirmary Glasgow. Informant was his brother. Both William and John were residents of Rothesay at that time. Parents names are given as Archibald Lockhart and Isabella Campbell, both deceased. Archibald was a handloom weaver.
Given that William was the informant, one presumes that William gave the correct information.
Nell
Found John Lockhart in the 1871 Census Parkhurst Barracks Isle of White Hampshire
John Lockhart age 30 born Scotland soldier 26th regiment
Ellen Lockhart age 23 born Scotland
John Lockhart age 1 born Scotland
Rosie
Transcribed as Lockart
Brilliant find Rosie, no wonder we couldn't find him in or around Lesmahagow nor anywhere else in Scotland!
Annie
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Just a pity his army records don't mention anything on parents >:( just his marriage
At least we have found him in England 1871 ;)
Rosie
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Nell...
"Parents names are given as Archibald Lockhart and Isabella Campbell, both deceased"
Does this say Isabella Lockhart m/s Campbell?
Annie
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TIMELINE
1882 Birth of Mary Lockhart - 20A Beckford Street, Hamilton, Lanark
1881 Census Soldiers Barracks, Hamilton, Lanark (Born Beith, Ayr)
1871 Census - Parkhurst Barracks Isle of White Hampshire (Born Scotland)
1869 Marriage Barracks, Dundee
1862 Enlisted - 26 th Foot Regiment Glasgow (Born Irvine, Ayr)
1861...Outstanding
1851... Ditto
1841... Ditto
From this so far, maybe we can assume John was born somewhere in Ayr?
Annie
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TIMELINE
1882 Birth of Mary Lockhart - 20A Beckford Street, Hamilton, Lanark
1881 Census Soldiers Barracks, Hamilton, Lanark (Born Beith, Ayr)
1871 Census - Parkhurst Barracks Isle of White Hampshire (Born Scotland)
1869 Marriage Barracks, Dundee
1862 Enlisted - 26 th Foot Regiment Glasgow (Born Irvine, Ayr)
1861...Outstanding
1851... Ditto
1841... Ditto
From this so far, maybe we can assume John was born somewhere in Ayr?
Annie
Annie according to the record on Find My Past John attestation date was 28 Dec 1860 and he was 20 years old and 6 months
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A possibility for John and brother William in 1851
A John Lockhart 9 and a William Reid 3 living with their grandparents James and Euphemea Weir at Muirhead Lesmahagow Lanark
Best fit I could find although everybody in the house is listed as born Lesmahagow
The other John Lockharts not living with parents both nephews one born Wigtown the other Renfrew
No sign of a daughter Isabella or a marriage between a Weir and Campbell
Not them have just found this John's baptisim parents John Lockhart and Euphemia Weir
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Nell...
"Parents names are given as Archibald Lockhart and Isabella Campbell, both deceased"
Does this say Isabella Lockhart m/s Campbell?
Annie
Yes it does.
I have tried to give information that is supported by official documents. So I have no idea if the maiden name is Stewart or Campbell, and nothing is showing up in the indexes at the moment. :-\
I did find two Lockhart children listed in 1891 at a Catholic orphanage in Rothesay. This was Annie and William - their ages and places of birth are roughly correct for the two children of that name in John and Helen/Ellen's family. But no proof :(
Nell
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Nell, with what you found for Ann and William, I think Mary is showing in Edinburgh for 1891:
Jane Clark 51 b. Larbert Stirlingshire
William Clark 17 b (England), Kent
John Clark 14 b. Hamilton
Thomas Clark 12 b. Hamilton
Margaret Clark 20 b. Wight, Isle of
Jane Clark 14 b. Hamilton
Mary Lochart 8 niece b. Hamilton
Thomas Collins 30 visitor
Address: 2 W Fountain Pl Edinburgh
I think husband/father may be a John Clark from an earlier census.
Monica
ADDED: from the marriage details posted by Annie earlier, Jane Moffat/Clark looks likely to be Helen's sister https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1LB-TCM
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from the marriage details posted by Annie earlier, Jane Moffat/Clark looks likely to be Helen's sister
Definitely. The IoW BDM index has Margaret Clark's mother's maiden name as Moffat/Moffet.
So one wonders what happened to Helen/Ellen Lockhart by 1891?
Nell
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I wonder if this is her in New York by 1900 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSXQ-N2X
I can't see a death for her in Scotland so far so this could be why.
Could explain why daughters Annie and Mary headed off there in 1900. Can't see original manifest so far with the details Rosie posted earlier regarding the Anchoria's arrival in NY in July 1900. Wondered what they gave for contacts in the UK & US.
Monica
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TIMELINE
1882 Birth of Mary Lockhart - 20A Beckford Street, Hamilton, Lanark
1881 Census Soldiers Barracks, Hamilton, Lanark (Born Beith, Ayr)
1871 Census - Parkhurst Barracks Isle of White Hampshire (Born Scotland)
1869 Marriage Barracks, Dundee
1862 Enlisted - 26 th Foot Regiment Glasgow (Born Irvine, Ayr)
1861...Outstanding
1851... Ditto
1841... Ditto
From this so far, maybe we can assume John was born somewhere in Ayr?
Annie
Annie according to the record on Find My Past John attestation date was 28 Dec 1860 and he was 20 years old and 6 months
Wendy, the info. was taken from Reply #61 (Rosie) probably a typo but it was more for the PoB & where likely to find John in 1861 ;)
Nell,
Apologies if you interpreted my questioning wrongly re Isabella Campbell but I knew the doc was from SP, it was the wording of Isabella Campbell which I wondered about simply because if it didn't state 'm/s' this would have been ref. to them not having been married which was my concern being as we now have 2 surnames for her or we are looking at 2 different people who by coincidence have a forename of Isabella :-\
Annie
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I wonder if this is her in New York by 1900 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSXQ-N2X
I can't see a death for her in Scotland so far so this could be why.
Could explain why daughters Annie and Mary headed off there in 1900. Can't see original manifest so far with the details Rosie posted earlier regarding the Anchoria's arrival in NY in July 1900. Wondered what they gave for contacts in the UK & US.
Monica
Great find Monica!
All seems to fit with the bonus of how many children born & how many still living.
Children basically confirmed although I don't know which one was deceased by 1900?...
John (b Aberdeen)
Isabella (b India, East)
James (b England)
Ellen Lockhart (b Glasgow, Lanark)
William Lockhart (b England)
Anne/Annie (b Hamilton, Lanark) (After census night)
Mary (Frances) (b Hamilton, Lanark)
I wonder now if this birth could be the root (pun not intended) of the confusion?
Was this Isabella Campbell Stewart the mother?
From scotlandspeople;
STEWART ISABELLA CAMPBE (Campbell but the index is limited for characters)
WILLIAM STEWART/ANN CAMPBELL FR847 (Parents & names in the line of John & Helen/Ellen) :-\
27/06/1803
578/50 171 Ayr
Although born 1803 shed still be of an age for giving birth to John (with approx dates we have) 1840-1842
This seems likely (in my opinion) to be a good possibility although no way of proving it for now?
Annie
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Christening of Isabella Campbell Stewart from familysearch.org which may be relevant later?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYCG-VPP
Annie
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reply 75: This is a hugh prospect or lead. One of Mary Frances Lockhart Legarda's daughters lived in Duchess county New York
Family search ID: LKWX-P8L Elena Romona Legrda
spouse: John Henry (Jack) Staples ID family search is MM2B-L4K
Mary Frances lockgart Legarda ID family search LK78-NXG
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KSXL-WHT
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Mary Frances lockgart Legarda ID family search LK78-NXG
https://familysearch.org/ark:1:161903/1:1:KSXL_WHT
Welcome back Jule ;)
I tried the link & this message appeared...
"File Not Found
We are sorry, but the page you requested is no longer available or cannot be found. If you arrived here from a bookmark, please delete your bookmark."
Annie
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Reply 51:
Family search
John Keane Lockhart family search ID LK78-K66
1871 census https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1;1;VBPT-CX1
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Reply 51:
Family search
John Keane Lockhart family search ID LK78-K66
1871 census https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1;1;VBPT-CX1
"File Not Found
We are sorry, but the page you requested is no longer available or cannot be found. If you arrived here from a bookmark, please delete your bookmark."
Annie
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"Search Results from Historical Records
No records found for Name: John Keane Lockhart"
Annie
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Jule, I am getting the same error messages as Annie. The links to Familysearch don't work.
Can you please type up your replies and try to explain things a bit more clearly? For example, I don't understand the relevance of this:
reply 75: This is a hugh prospect or lead. One of Mary Frances Lockhart Legarda's daughters lived in Duchess county New York
Family search ID: LKWX-P8L Elena Romona Legrda
spouse: John Henry (Jack) Staples ID family search is MM2B-L4K
Mary Frances lockgart Legarda ID family search LK78-NXG
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KSXL-WHT
I'm sorry but I don't understand why you have posted this. :-\
I think it might the best way might be if you get out a pencil and large piece of paper and starting with Mary Lockhart (no middle name Francis), put in her date and place of birth and death, then add siblings, parents etc, systematically, the old fashioned way.
I find that working this way helps to clarify things because it can get very confusing if you can't clearly see the relationships visually.
If you read the posts on this thread you will see that some amazing discoveries have been made. As one example, I know that people have spent hours trying to find your John Lockhart and Ellen in Lesmahagow, SCOTLAND in the 1871 census, because you said you had them there. But they are not there. Rosie found them on the Isle of Wight in Hampshire in ENGLAND!
So if you go through and write on your tree in all the correct facts as found by the researchers on here, then all the dates and places should fit together a lot better than they currently do.
By drawing it all out on a physical tree you will also see where the gaps are, and you will know where to concentrate your research to progress further.
This is just a suggestion of a method which I find useful. :)
Added: I am not sure if you are familiar with the site Scotland's People https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ but it is essential for any research in Scotland. It is very easy to use. You need to register to use the site and purchase credits to view the records instantly. I don't know if you realise, that some people have used their own credits to purchase certificates for you to help your research, to confirm parentage and other details, and to take your research back another generation or two.
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To all that have helped in this research, Please know I am grateful. I am a novice and am not completely familiar with terms, etc.
What do you mean by credits?
What does the word attestation mean ? (enlistment)?
Jane ?? Not sure where that name came from.
I don't know if the ID of people listed on family search is useable,I hope so.
I correct the typo in the link Rosinish -hopeit makes a difference.
Don't know if this is helpful? 1871 Scotland database
(http;//www.findmypast.com:2012);citing pg19, PROT1,The National Archives UK, Kew, Surrey, FHL microfilm 104,039
Thank you for concerns of my hospitalization. It was a pre-arranged heart ablation (not caused by anyone's remarks or stress. ) I am still weak and not up to par but getting stronger each hour.
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Jule, Click on the link I supplied to Scotlands People, and when you are feeling better you should really register and have a good play with the site.
Credits? Using a credit card you pay for a number of credits which you can use on the site. You then use these credits to view specific records.
Credits cost £0.25 each and are available in batches of 30 (£7.50) or 40 (£10) It costs 6 credits to purchase a birth, marriage or death certificate.
As you have said you are a novice you might find it useful to get this all down on paper as I suggested. Just reading it can make your head spin especially when you have the same names repeated down the generations. Take it slowly and carefully. :)
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To all that have helped in this research, Please know I am grateful. I am a novice and am not completely familiar with terms, etc.
I don't know if the ID of people listed on family search is useable,I hope so.
I correct the typo in the link Rosinish -hopeit makes a difference.
Don't know if this is helpful? 1871 Scotland database
(http;//www.findmypast.com:2012);citing pg19, PROT1,The National Archives UK, Kew, Surrey, FHL microfilm 104,039
Thank you for concerns of my hospitalization. It was a pre-arranged heart ablation (not caused by anyone's remarks or stress. ) I am still weak and not up to par but getting stronger each hour.
Jule,
Glad you're on the mend!!
We all love a puzzle but please read through the thread as Rosie has found the family in 1871 i.e. the info. you have is not your family.
We've yet to find them prior in 1861/51/41 although potentials have been posted (can't remember which yr) but I'm sure with more time it will become more obvious but what was posted looks good!
We're not full-time researchers, we just 'dabble' in our spare time but enjoy the puzzles/chase ;)
Hope you recover soon!
Annie
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Annie - re reply 74 -no worries. Like others attempting to unscramble this puzzle, I was hoping to show that looking at the original images which are readily available (even if they cost some pennies) can bring huge dividends.
This is the link for all sources attached to John (Keane) Lockhart on FamilySearch:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/LK78-K66
And that's where Fernancy Jane appears
But we think that the Lesmahagow John is not the correct one. There is no information on the whole family from the FS census entry to determine it. Looking at other sources/transcriptions, the John in Lesmahagow was married to Elizabeth and he was a miner. The soldier on the Isle of Wight is the right one.
Nell
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thank you little Nell - Can I ask is it hard for other countries to tap into the family search website.
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I wonder if this is her in New York by 1900 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSXQ-N2X
I can't see a death for her in Scotland so far so this could be why.
Could explain why daughters Annie and Mary headed off there in 1900. Can't see original manifest so far with the details Rosie posted earlier regarding the Anchoria's arrival in NY in July 1900. Wondered what they gave for contacts in the UK & US.
Monica
Uk outward passengers list no details just noticed on the same ship is Mary's future husband Vicente Legardo
Rosie
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Have been wondering where the Keane name has came from ?
What do you think of this maybe a possible
on the 1841 census address 74 Laigh Road Beath Ayrshire
Arichbald Kenn age 20 born Scotland Cotton hand loom weaver
Isabella Kenn age 20 ......
Mary Kenn age 6
John Kenn age 3
Jacob age 6 months
Ann Kennedy age 45 hawker
1851 Census Surname now Cain address Bunswynd Beith Ayrshire
Isabella Cain age 34 born Beith hand sewer ( visitor )
Mary 14,John 11,Jacob 9,Archibald 7,Ann5,William 2 all surname Cain all born Beith
Elizabeth Stewart age 34 pauper hand sewer born Beith
1861 census address Law Brae West Kilbride
Isabella Lochard age 44 born Beith ..hand sewer
Archibald Kean age 16 born Beith.. hawker
William Kean age 11 born Beith ....hawker
Not traced them yet on 1871 census
1881 Census address 14 Tower Street Rothesay
Isabella Cane age 69 ...Hawker
Death for Isabella Lockhart Kean 29 September 1885 age 74 widow of Archibald Kean (weaver )
Address 14 Tower Street Rothesay death registered by son William Kean
Father William Lockhart mother Ann looks like McQuilkan
Don't want to confuse every one but maybe a posssible perhaps Isabella was never married ???
Rosie
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thank you little Nell - Can I ask is it hard for other countries to tap into the family search website.
No, you just need to sign up for a free account.
However, unless you are consulting primary sources (which may be available on the site but not always), the information should be confirmed against the original documents: census returns, parish registers, BDM certificates. Simply accepting an entry in a transcription index (which a lot of databases on FamilySearch are) as the right one because it is in the right area, roughly the right date without looking for some other form of confirmation can lead to false trails. Been there, done that :(
I really do recommend looking at original sources where possible. For Scottish research, ScotlandsPeople is THE site to use. The indexes on FamilySearch are useful since they are free and you can get a few more details of the content of the original record, before you pay to look at the entry on ScotlandsPeople.
This is a fascinating puzzle you have set us! :)
Nell
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Excellent sleuthing, rosie (reply 89) - something to consider, given the Rothesay address for Isabella.
Nell
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Excellent sleuthing, rosie (reply 89) - something to consider, given the Rothesay address for Isabella.
Nell
Agreed! :)
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Likely explains so much of John's early missing years. Well done Rosie :)
Monica
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Brilliant work Rosie, looks like you've nailed it!
I'm confused with Isabella & all her surnames ::)
I wonder who Elizabeth Stewart is in 1851?
Now wondering where the name Campbell came from :-\
Looks like the mystery of 'Keane' is solved ;)
Fascinating thread indeed!
Annie
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Does look possible that maybe explains why we could not find them on earlier census records
Annie this might be Elizabeth Stewart death 1880 Beith Ayr other name Patterson ..
Don't know where the Campbell name comes in ???
Rosie
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Rosie,
We may never find out where the Stewart/Campbell was derived from but your work has been outstanding & I have enjoyed following!
Annie
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Rosie,
We may never find out where the Stewart/Campbell was derived from but your work has been outstanding & I have enjoyed following!
Annie
Annie think everyone has been outstanding it has certainly been a challenge :D :D
Rosie
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This birth would be very interesting...
SP;
CANE (no forename but an 1855 record is a treasure)!
F (Female)
1855
581/ 167
Beith (Ayr)
From FS;
Cane
Female
06 Dec 1855
BEITH,AYR,SCOTLAND
Father Archibald Cane
Mother Isbel Lockhart
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYRL-K8G
Annie
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Rosie Thank you - This looks very interesting. All looking for "Keane" Could very well be "Kean" - "Cain"
Thank you very much, Great detective work
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I have the surname Kean in my FH with a few variants (from my own on genuine docs)...
Kean, Kain, Kaine, Kane, Cain & Caine
I have seen numerous others on transcriptions too ;)
Annie
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That birth was certainly very interesting to me Annie, as the child was the seventh child of my great-great-great grandparents, Archibald Cain/Kane/Kean and Isabella Lockhart. Sadly the unnamed girl died two days afterwards but from that I found confirmation of the number of children to look for. The certificate says that they were married in Glasgow in 1835 but I haven't found that in official records as yet.
I believe that Archibald died in 1860 but unfortunately the death cert is so faded that I can't make anything of it at all.
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I believe that Archibald died in 1860 but unfotunately the death cert is so faded that I can't make anything of it at all.
If you get a certificate from Scotland's People and you can't decipher it, report it to them and they will re-scan it for you.
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That birth was certainly very interesting to me Annie, as the child was the seventh child of my great-great-great grandparents, Archibald Cain/Kane/Kean and Isabella Lockhart.
I believe that Archibald died in 1860 but unfortunately the death cert is so faded that I can't make anything of it at all.
Uistman...glad it was of use/help!
Any chance of you posting the doc to see if we can decipher anything meanwhile in between you getting a reply & a better scan from SP?
P.S. Are you from Uist yourself? I have many connections with S/Uist (my paternal line) & of course Eriskay, hence my username, where my g g/mother was born :P
Annie
Edit...to add...Ahh, are you who I think...I MacK? ;)
Jings, I may be able to send you some info. on Kean/Cain (variants) which I can't fit into my own lot so far? Info. I've acquired in my own research over the yrs.
We already share Uist connections although we're not related so it would be a shock if we had Kean/Cain connections too ;D
I'll look at what I have in my 'Strays' folder i.e. ones I've downloaded but not found a connection yet ::)
Will either email or PM you them on fb!
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Edit...to add...Ahh, are you who I think...I MacK? ;)
I am indeed he !! :) Hee Hee
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This was the birth of Archibald Cain's unnamed child. I don't have the copy of Archibald's death - It was a few years ago and I think I was so disappointed that I just deleted it, so I might just get another copy as Forfarian suggested.