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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Berkshire => England => Berkshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: NooshieW on Thursday 06 September 18 18:16 BST (UK)
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Hi I am looking for an Arthur Neal, daughter Daisy May, possibly living in Newbury in 1901.
I think she may have been born around 1893 but unsure . I know of her marriage in 1908 to Flatman.
Thank you
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The 1901 & 1911 census can be searched for free on Family Search
Have you checked freebmd for a birth reg for Daisy to confirm her birthyear and birthplace? Looking for her on the 1911 census will give her birthplace
You can then use GRO online to look for her mothers maiden name
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There's a Daisy Neal living with her mother Agnes ,step daughter to Roberty A Hodge in Walworth 1901....There's also a marriage between Robert and Agnes Neal 1899 Hackney.
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The 1901 & 1911 census can be searched for free on Family Search
Have you checked freebmd for a birth reg for Daisy to confirm her birthyear and birthplace? Looking for her on the 1911 census will give her birthplace
You can then use GRO online to look for her mothers maiden name
I have looked for her before and not found her I thought a fresh look might help
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Where did you get her fathers name from? I notice that “Flatman” was Arthur Burnett Flatman born 1890 Pembroke.
GRO maiden name search has no Flatman/Neal births up to 1919
If you think she may have been born around 1893 - she would only have been around 15 in 1908 and Arthur 18
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You must have more info about her so tell us what you have and her connection to your FH. Do you have her 1908 marriage cert?
Do you know the names of any children born to them and where they were born?
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A Daisy M Flatman b 1890 died Suffolk 1968
EDIT. She was nee Howard and married Gurney E Flatman
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Thanks, yes I have the marriage certificate, her father is named as Arthur, her husband is my grandfather, who married my grandmother Hettie in 1921; nobody in the family knows what happened to Daisy and whether they actually divorced or had the marriage annulled, someone has a note on the certificate to say that Daisy was under age and born in or around 1894.
Thanks, they had no children.
They are both down as 21 on the certificate, which they patently weren’t .
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Who are the witnesses? What ages are given for bride and groom? Occupations? In fact all the gen from the cert!
When Arthur remarries in 1921 does he say he is a widower?
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Witnesses are a Mary Jones and a William Kinch. Arthur was a corporal in the Royal Berkshire Regiment and Daisy has no occupation, they are both 21 (they weren’t) and Daisy’s father’s occupation was a labourer.
I know all about Arthur's’ family.
He was called Lisburne by the time he married my gran. He had deserted and changed his name, I have asked about him on here before, but don’t need any Lisburne information now.
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As you know about the underage aspect - I presume you have already investigated the 1894 birth in Lambeth for Daisy May Neal?
What was the result?
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Yes, that Daisy May died the following year
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I found an Elsie May Neal, father Arthur and living in Newbury in 1911 , she is single and born 1894/5, but I just don’t know.
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That one does come from an army family too.
She marries in 1915, father Arthur Neal soldier, she a spinster
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Yes that’s what I thought, I also have a note of a Daisy May O’Neal living in Surrey aged 18 in 1911 and living in a boarding house, born in Ireland, again a possible army connection., but again I just don’t know. What I do know is that I have never found a Daisy May Flatman on any record, apart from the one already provided by Carole.
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As you know about the underage aspect - I presume you have already investigated the 1894 birth in Lambeth for Daisy May Neal?
What was the result?
EDIT
Ignore - she died 1895
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That one does come from an army family too.
She marries in 1915, father Arthur Neal soldier, she a spinster
This could be interesting ,if Daisy is Elsie she just remarried when she was of age, what is her husband’s name please? Thanks,however she says her father is a labourer on her wedding certificate
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Was Arthur said to be a widower, bachelor, or previous marriage dissolved, when he remarries in 1921?
The person Elsie married was James Alexander Worrall, also a soldier
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Bachelor 😲
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Sounds as if first marriage was annulled as she was underage …….
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Maybe, I cannot find a birth for Daisy or a subsequent marriage for a Daisy, only Elsie.
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Sounds as if first marriage was annulled as she was underage …….
Being “underage” (a minor?) would not have been a basis for annulment of a marriage of a 15 yr old. In 1908 a girl could lawfully marry at 12, and a boy at 14. Parental consent was required, but its absence did not render a marriage void.
Alex J and Elsie M Worrall were still together in 1939.
She died as Elsie May Worrall (born 27 Aug 1894) in Preston in 1974.
He died as Alexander James Worrall (born 3 Jan 1891) in Preston in 1975.
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To rule it out
March qtr 1893
Daisy May Neale Hartismere 4a 832 mmn Welham
Father was either George James or Harry James Neale - marriage June qtr 1892
If she lied about her age - she may also have lied about her fathers name. Is it more than a coincidence that father & spouse were both called Arthur- just a thought
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This one perhaps??
Quote from previous posting:
If she lied about her age - she may also have lied about her fathers name. Is it more than a coincidence that father & spouse were both called Arthur- just a thought
Birth:
NEALE, DAISY BENNETT
GRO Reference: 1893 M Quarter in ABINGDON Volume 02C Page 288
1901 census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS3V-NPP
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She is in Middlesex in 1911.
Daisy Neale marries Herbert S Walker Abingdon 1914
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I think the thing that upsets me the most is there is no divorce, so my gran married a married man and I don’t know whether she ever knew. She had a church wedding with him aswell and she was a war widow, I just don’t like the thought of her being duped . I have searched for ages for this Daisy May, but I think Elsie May is looking the best bet as she is Newbury, her dad is Arthur and she is in an army family.
Thanks everyone for your continuing help anyway.
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Thinking outside the box, Daisy is a nickname for Margaret (or Marguerite which is the French word for daisy). It might just be worth looking to see if she was registered or baptised in one of those names.
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If the marriage was annulled because she lied about her age - would he have been legally correct in stating he was a bachelor when he remarried?
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I found an Elsie May Neal, father Arthur and living in Newbury in 1911 ,
she is single and born 1894/5, but I just don’t know.
Don't know if this will help
National School Admission Registers & Log books 1870 1914
St Nicholas Church Of England School
7th May 1906 Admission - no parent or guardians named,
Enbourne Road
Elsie Neal born 27 8 94 Name of last School Charlbury
Dorothy Neal born 4 12 97 ditto
Elsie May NEAL mmn COLLINS
1894 D Quarter in COLCHESTER Volume 04A Page 612
Dorothy Ellen NEAL mmn COLLINS
1897 D Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 1271
Free BMD has these marriage entries
Mar 1892
Collins Ada Mary Farnham 2a 170
Mogg William Farnham 2a 170
Neal Arthur Farnham 2a 170
Pratt Edith Farnham 2a 170
Sep 1892
COLLINS Ada Mary Colchester 4a 804
HAINES Selina Frances Colchester 4a 804
HARNES Selina Frances Colchester 4a 804
Neal Arthur Colchester 4a 804
Steadman William Colchester 4a 804
Dorothy Ellen Neal born 04 Dec 1897
Baptism 22 Dec 1897 Woolwich Kent
Father Arthur Mother Ada
Father's occupation Corpl A S C, Residence Woolwich
Source St George's Garrison Church, Woolwich, Kent: Baptism Register
1920 Berkshire ER
3 Westfields View, Arthur Road (Arthur living at this address 1911)
Arthur Neal
Ada Mary Neal
1926/27/30 Berkshire ER
15 Arthur Road
Arthur Neal
Ada Mary Neal
Arthur Henry Neale
Albert Charles Neal (1927)
Arthur Neal is on 1939 Register in Berkshire with Ada M
Added
Arthur Neal died Age 82 Residence 15 Arthur Rd
Burial date 30 Dec 1941 St Nicolas Newbury
Dorothy Ellen Bassett born 4 12 1897
Dec 1979 Newbury Berkshire Volume 19 Page 0109
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Thanks everyone, I am maybe putting two and two together and coming up five, but as there is no birth record for a Daisy May Neal and there is an Elsie May Neal with everything else correct I think it could be her. If they just ran away and married without permission it might make sense to change the name. It’s the fact the marriage was in Newbury and the family are living in Newbury in 1911,there just didn’t seem to be a Daisy anywhere.
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Thanks everyone, I am maybe putting two and two together and coming up five, but as there is no birth record for a Daisy May Neal and there is an Elsie May Neal with everything else correct I think it could be her.
If they just ran away and married without permission it might make sense to change the name.
It’s the fact the marriage was in Newbury and the family are living in Newbury in 1911,there just didn’t seem to be a Daisy anywhere.
Could it be that her middle name is incorrect on 1908 m/c and should have been Jane ???
Not seeing a marriage or death entry for a Daisy J(ane) Neal in Berkshire area
Daisy Jane NEAL mmn COLLINS
1892 J Quarter in FARNHAM Volume 02A Page 118
1901 census below seems to be the same family from the 1911 census you have mentioned
Quote
"I found an Elsie May Neal, father Arthur and living in Newbury in 1911 ,
she is single and born 1894/5, but I just don’t know"
1901c RG13 612 Folio 81 Page 10
Harrow Road, Aldershot (Hants), Farnham, Hampshire
Ada Neal wife married 29 Newbury (husband in South Africa)
Daisy Jane Neal age 8 dau Aldershot
Elsie May Neal dau 6 Colchester
Arthur Henry Neal son 5 Woolwich
Dorothy Ellen Neal dau 3 Woolwich
Daisy Jane Neal born 18 May 1892
Baptism date 14 Jul 1893 Colchester
Father Arthur mother Ada
Father's occupation Corporal A S C
Residence The Camp
Source Camp Church, Colchester, Essex: Baptism Register
I have the marriage certificate, her father is named as Arthur,
her husband is my grandfather, who married my grandmother Hettie in 1921;
nobody in the family knows what happened to Daisy and whether they actually divorced or had the marriage annulled, someone has a note on the certificate to say that Daisy was under age and born in or around 1894. both down as 21 on the certificate, which they patently weren’t
There is this entry but don't know if she's same Daisy May Neal that married
Arthur Burnett Flatman 1908 Newbury :-\
Daisy Flatman
Year 1931 address at top of page Colney Hatch Mental Hospital N.11
Polling district or place Friern Barnet
Constituency in full Parliamentary County of Middlesex, Finchley Division
Record set England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1920-1932
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Wow, this is good stuff, thanks a lot, this could definitely be her, very sad too.
Goodness knows how it can be definitely proved or disproved, but it’s looking the closest yet.
Just to add I am presuming she was a patient, but could have been working there? I am not sure a patient would have had the vote.
If she was on the 1911 census it would help considerably.
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If the marriage was annulled because she lied about her age - would he have been legally correct in stating he was a bachelor when he remarried?
As someone explained earlier, her age would not be grounds for annulment, nor would providing an inaccurate age.
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If she was on the 1911 census it would help considerably.
Do you have her husband Arthur on 1911 census and if so under which surname
Flatman or Lisburne?
Arthur Burnett Lisburne born Arthur Burnett Flatman on 1 Sep 1890 in Neyland, Pembrokeshire,
he signed a statement for Civil Service employment purposes in Devonport dated 1949
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I am not convinced she would have stayed with the name Flatman. She may have kept Neal, as A Daisy Neal died in Croydon and all of my grandfather’s family were from Croydon .
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If she was on the 1911 census it would help considerably.
Do you have her husband Arthur on 1911 census and if so under which surname
Flatman or Lisburne?
Arthur Burnett Lisburne born Arthur Burnett Flatman on 1 Sep 1890 in Neyland, Pembrokeshire,
he signed a statement for Civil Service employment purposes in Devonport dated 1949
Yes Arthur Lisburne was on the 1911 census in the Army. He joined as Flatman ,deserted and went back in as Lisburne.
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Do you have his Army records?
If so, was wife Daisy mentioned as his next of kin?
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No I paid for what I thought were his records, but it was only a couple of pieces of paper. I think his were one of the many records lost in the war.
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I am not convinced she would have stayed with the name Flatman.
She may have kept Neal, as A Daisy Neal died in Croydon and all of my grandfather’s family were from Croydon .
a possibility perhaps?
Daisy Neal occ extra ditto (word above is charwoman)
Entry into service 1923
Volume title Windsor Castle Inspector's Weekly Disbursement Book
Volume date 1921_1924
Archive reference MRH/SUPTWC/SB21
Record set Royal Household Staff 1526-1924
looking at the original it only give initial ‘D’ Neal
Daisy Neale , occ extra ditto (word above is charwoman)
Entry into service 1923
Volume title Windsor Castle Inspector's Weekly Disbursement Book
Volume date 1921_1924
Archive reference MRH/SUPTWC/SB21
Record set Royal Household Staff 1526-1924
original entry gives her name as Daisy
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A Daisy Neal died in Croydon and all of my grandfather’s family were from Croydon .
Is this the death entry?
If so, her dob is not the same as Daisy Jane Neal,
she was born 18 May 1892
Jun 1982 CROYDON 11 1435
Daisy NEAL 10 AP 1894
Have you looked on 1939 register using the above dob?
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No it’s not the same girl. No I haven’t looked on the 1939 register.