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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: CrichCarr on Friday 07 September 18 20:39 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I know that Private George Bateman (Service No. 15141) died on the 12th November 1914. I understand that he was at Ypres but would be interested to learn what particularly localised engagements around that time his Regiment (1st Battalion Grenadier Guards) would have fought in. Like many, many more he died following the wounds he received.
He is buried in the small Railway Chateau Cemetery, Vlamertinghe, which according to the information I have seen is about 2 Km west of Ieper town centre.
Yours Hopefully,
Alan S. Flint
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The 1st Battalion, Grenadiers Guards War Diary is unfortunately, not online on any site I have found. It is on Amazon (kindle) if you want to shell out £2.99 to read it.
http://www.grengds.com/static.php?content_id=178
War diaries give a daily account of the battalion's activities. Some have more detail than others, and Other Ranks are very rarely named.
Hope this helps
Philip
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1/Grenadiers:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mo4/
Page 280. No reported casualties on the 12th. ?
Effects register says 2/Grenadiers & died on the 11th.
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(As Jim finds at the same time!) All his surviving records shows that he was with 2nd Battalion not 1st and that agrees with his date of arrival, 31 Aug 1914, in France. The Commonwealth War Graves site has 1st Battalion but they also have his number slightly wrong so it may be their mistake.
The war diary for the 2nd Battalion is downloadable from the National Archives at:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351962
If you have a sub for Ancestry it starts here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1342_0-00260?pid=372589&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DJdV7722%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Dukwardiarieswwi%26cp%3D0%26gskw%3D1342/1%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26redir%3Dfalse%26uidh%3D6x5%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D372589%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=JdV7722&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=43112_1342_0-00000
The major engagements through his time in Belgium and France were (from Longlongtrail)
The Battle of Mons and the subsequent retreat, including the Affair of Landrecies, the Rearguard affair of Le Grand Fayt and the Rearguard actions of Villers-Cotterets
The Battle of the Marne
The Battle of the Aisne including participation in the Actions on the Aisne heights
First Battle of Ypres (which is probably where he lost his life).
Descriptions of each of those major engagements would be able to be found on the net.
MaxD
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2/GG 11/11/14.
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Gentlemen,
Very many thanks for your individual contributions, I am hugely impressed with the guidance you have all provided.
jim1, you say that the Effects Registers for George Bateman gives him as being in the 2nd Grenadier Guards and that he died on the 11th... Ancestry.co.uk has a copy of the Effects Register which I have downloaded but whether this is all the the Effects Register is comprised of I do not know. On the Effects Registry image I cannot see anything which to me mentions whether he was in the 1st or 2nd Battalion of the Grenadiers, perhaps I am looking in the wrong place or simply misunderstanding the detail in the record. This Effects Register does say that George Bateman had a Service No. 15141. It also has a date of 12/11/14 which is the same date suggested by the CWGC, whereas your own initial comment mentions the 11th as being the more likely date of his death. I am attaching a copy of that element downloaded from Ancestry in case you are able to clarify any misunderstanding on my part.
I am thrilled to have the map which gives greater clarity to the area around Ypres, and greatly helps in interpreting the places referred to in the War Diaries.
MaxD, When you say "all his surviving records show that he was the 2nd Grenadiers etc..." are you able to say what these records might be? I did download from Ancestry the British Army WW1 Medal Rolls Index Card information for George Bateman and I have to say that having looked again in more detail it does specify George as being in the 2nd Grenadiers (in several places)!
I am grateful for the prompt regarding the various 'engagements' which will be very interesting to research.
philipsearching, As MaxD has suggested the War Diaries for the 2nd G.G's are available through Ancestry (I do have a subscription as you can judge from what I have said above, although I might still get the Kindle version of the 1st G.G's Diaries because even if George Bateman was in the 2nd G.G's not the 1st G.G's as it is immensely interesting to read all that happened.
Again, thank you all for you interest in my query, all this is compelling stuff.....
Alan
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This the one I'm looking at.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6117462_0019-00253/785775?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
On yours look at the "see also" & the ref. no.
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The Effects register entry Jim has cited is one of the records I alluded to. The others (which you have found I think, are his medal card and the associated 1914 Star medal roll -these all have 2nd Battalion. Significant also on his medal card and roll is the August date of entry to France. 1st Bn didn't enter France until October.
However, and ignore this if you wish, I looked at the two other Grenadiers buried in the same cemetery.
14657 Deeley Grave Registration Form is 1st Bn - in the Effects Register he is 2nd, medal card 2nd, medal roll 2nd
15578 Taylor Grave Registration Form is 1st Bn - Effects Register 2nd (and he has an "also" entry) medal card and medal roll 2nd. He died in No 4 CCS.
There are also, as with George Bateman, minor discrepancies with the dates of death and died of wounds/killed in action descriptions.
Where from here. The above does indicate at least that there was some confusion about the men's battalion in the CWGC chain and maybe even in the Grenadiers' records of the time - understandable given the tribulations of that period.
One thing you might like to do is to compare the locations and the actions on 11/12 Nov 1914 of 2nd Bn (which you have from Jim) and that of 1st Bn which you can find in their diary. There is no need to buy the transcript (although it may be more readable) - the diary is on Ancestry. Go to the War Diaries search box, put 1657 in the Keyword box and nothing else. Click on the first result and look for image 269 (little film icon) which is where 1 GG starts in October 1914. Then with those look for the relationship with the cemetery.
That may simply produce more question marks though! If you need more guidance with diary/map of 1st Bn in Nov, give a shout.
MaxD
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This the one I'm looking at.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6117462_0019-00253/785775?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
On yours look at the "see also" & the ref. no.
jim1,
Thanks for your help with locating the above Effects Register entry. I am now convinced enough to agree with the collective view that George Bateman was with the 2nd Battalion (not the 1st). There must have been some confusion in the records of the time, which is not at all surprising given all that was taking place and not just in the theatre of conflict.
Regards,
Alan
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There are also, as with George Bateman, minor discrepancies with the dates of death and died of wounds/killed in action descriptions.
Where from here. The above does indicate at least that there was some confusion about the men's battalion in the CWGC chain and maybe even in the Grenadiers' records of the time - understandable given the tribulations of that period.
One thing you might like to do is to compare the locations and the actions on 11/12 Nov 1914 of 2nd Bn (which you have from Jim) and that of 1st Bn which you can find in their diary. There is no need to buy the transcript (although it may be more readable) - the diary is on Ancestry. Go to the War Diaries search box, put 1657 in the Keyword box and nothing else. Click on the first result and look for image 269 (little film icon) which is where 1 GG starts in October 1914. Then with those look for the relationship with the cemetery.
MaxD
Hi,
Just a quick acknowledgement of seeing your latest advice. I did have a quick look and found the 1st Battalion Diary as you suggested. I will peruse in more detail tomorrow but have already noticed that around the 11th & 12th November, the dates of George Bateman's death according to two different entries in the Effects Register, the Diary for the 1st Battalion reflects no casualties on either of these dates, maybe they were not at the time involved in any actual fighting?
Hopefully, back tomorrow when I have read the sections again of the Diaries for the 1st and the 2nd Battalions GG.
I sincerely appreciate your help with this.
Regards,
Alan
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Just summarised this from the War Diary of 1st Bn GG:
"4th Nov (7th Brigade) marched to LOCRE - Billeted there - South-west of Ypres
7th Nov - Organised into one company due to shortage of officers
8th Nov - Being re-equipped - Church parade @10.30am
11th Nov - Four officers, along with 401 men joined the Battalion
12th Nov - Two officers, along with another 133 men joined the Battalion. Afternoon spent in re-organising the Battalion and posting the Draft to companies.
13th Nov - Had an hours parade in the morning - afternoon spent in re-equipping the Battalion.
14th Nov - Parade 7.30am - Passed through BAILLEUL, STEENWERKE, had dinners at BAC-ST-MUR. Left Gordons in Reserve - Started at 5pm to relieve Leicesters in the 19th Brigade in the trenches. - Lt. Ward wounded in the arm - Lt. Lord Claud Hamilton taken to hospital with a sprained ankle......................."
Apart from one officer wounded and another taken to hospital with a sprained ankle there were no casualties reported either on the 11th Nov / 12 November (whichever day applies to the death of George Bateman). It seems very conclusive in supporting the earlier evidence that George Bateman was in the 2nd GG and not the 1st GG.
Regarding the proximity of the Railway Chateau Cemetery where George's body lies, to the action by the 2nd GG, the Cemetery appears to be about 2 Km to the west of Ypres.
I am so grateful for all your help with this query. Interestingly, George had a cousin who 'fell' 3 years later, in 1917. He was a member of a different Regiment, again fighting around Ypres. Pursuing him will be a query for another day. You may, therefore, hear from me again.
Very best wishes,
Alan