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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: RobinRedBreast on Friday 07 September 18 21:35 BST (UK)
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Hello There,
The above William Stanley was one of my 9x great granddad's.
His son, my 8x great was baptised in Deptford on the 21 of September 1704:
"Thurston Stanley, son of William a distiller of King Street."
The trouble is I can't work out who Thurston's mother was/ really much about the origins of this William. The baptism does not give the mother's name.
Quite a few trees on Ancestry have William getting married to Mary Webster in Deptford in 1687/1689. This might well be true. But I can't find any earlier baptisms of children by a William and Mary before 1704.
However, there was also a William Stanley who married in London around 1689 (I think to a Mary). But that William Stanley, according to the Quaker baptism of ANOTHER child called Thurston Stanley baptised in 1691 was a "Sugar Baker." That Thurston Stanley was buried in 1691.
According to the Quaker marriage certificate of that William, I think it stated he originated in Cheshire.
I have just subscribed to Ancestry. The two William's who had two Thurston Stanley's baptised seven years apart, in different places may well be the same. He could have got another job, and then married another Mary, after one died. And Thurston, I think was not a very common name. But I am not sure.
William's son, Thurston (born 1704) became a Weaver, and was apprenticed to William Bingley, on the 11th of April 1720 in London.
There is a "Freedom of The City Of London Admission Paper" for this Thurston Stanley, dated the 6th of March 1738.
It states down the left hand side that Thurston was:
"Son of Wm. Stanley, late of (?), distiller(?) dec'd."
I can't quite decipher where William was "late of." If anyone has any clues who also has acces to Ancestry, I would be very grateful regarding this. Here is a link to the original image:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2052/32512_a063384-00879/866466?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/108837364/person/422034320401/facts
So this must have obviously meant that William died before that date in 1738.
The closest I can seem to get, for a possible burial of William is one in Deptford on the 13th of July 1736:
"William Stanley, (a) Caulker (of?) Broomfields."
I presume a "Caulker" was somebody who worked with bottles, like distilling?
Anyway, if anyone has any information regarding the above and origins of this William, I would be very grateful.
Thank you very much.
:) ;)
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A caulker was someone whose work it is to caulk ships, that is to stop up the seams of (a ship, etc.) by driving in oakum, or the like, melted pitch or resin being afterwards poured on, so as to prevent leaking.
Stan
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It states down the left hand side that Thurston was:
"Son of Wm. Stanley, late of (?), distiller(?) dec'd."
I can't quite decipher where William was "late of." If anyone has any clues who also has acces to Ancestry, I would be very grateful regarding this. Here is a link to the original image:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2052/32512_a063384-00879/866466?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/108837364/person/422034320401/facts
I think it’s probably Rotherith (= Rotherhithe, adjacent to Deptford).
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It states down the left hand side that Thurston was:
"Son of Wm. Stanley, late of (?), distiller(?) dec'd."
I can't quite decipher where William was "late of." If anyone has any clues who also has acces to Ancestry, I would be very grateful regarding this. Here is a link to the original image:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2052/32512_a063384-00879/866466?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/108837364/person/422034320401/facts
I think it’s probably Rotherith (= Rotherhithe, adjacent to Deptford).
Thank you. :)
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Most family trees I have viewed have William marrying Mary Webster in Deptford in 1687.
But they show the pair as not having any children until around 1704.
One tree I saw also had William being baptised in 1668 in Warwickshire, son of a William George Richard Stanley, who was born in Lancashire. They have him in turn being a son of an Earl of Derby.
:)
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I wouldn't be worrying too much about other people's trees. Now that you have Ancestry, try looking at baptisms at Deptford to Wm Stanley (not William). There seem to be plenty of possibles to consider.
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Thank you ... I'll add the sugar baker reference to the database at the next update (over 500 new census entries later this month).
I've nothing factual to add to your post, though I do find the "two Williams with sons Thurston" a little hard to believe. There is a definite occupational link between a sugar baker and a distiller, and good reasons why one would move from the intense heat and long hours at a London sugarhouse to the relative ease of a distillery out in Deptford.
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I wouldn't be worrying too much about other people's trees. Now that you have Ancestry, try looking at baptisms at Deptford to Wm Stanley (not William). There seem to be plenty of possibles to consider.
Thank you very much for this. :)
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Thank you ... I'll add the sugar baker reference to the database at the next update (over 500 new census entries later this month).
I've nothing factual to add to your post, though I do find the "two Williams with sons Thurston" a little hard to believe. There is a definite occupational link between a sugar baker and a distiller, and good reasons why one would move from the intense heat and long hours at a London sugarhouse to the relative ease of a distillery out in Deptford.
Thank you,
I was wandering about that due to the fact I think that Thurston seems to be such an uncommon name.
There was one baptised 1691 to a William Stanley in London. And that Thurston Stanley died the following year. Then my Thurston Stanley was baptised 1704 in Deptford.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what a Sugar baker was. In my mind I'm thinking somebody who made cakes, but I may be wrong. I find it interesting that you think there may be an occupational link between a sugar baker and a distiller.
:) ;)
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Wikipedia says
A sugar-baker was the owner of a sugar house, a factory for the refining of raw sugar from the Barbados. Sugar refining would normally be combined with sugar trading, which was a lucrative business. The architectural historian Kerry Downes gives an example of one sugar baker's house in Liverpool being estimated to bring in £40,000 a year in trade from the Barbados.
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Wikipedia says
A sugar-baker was the owner of a sugar house, a factory for the refining of raw sugar from the Barbados. Sugar refining would normally be combined with sugar trading, which was a lucrative business. The architectural historian Kerry Downes gives an example of one sugar baker's house in Liverpool being estimated to bring in £40,000 a year in trade from the Barbados.
Thank you. :)
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It's easiest to quote from my book ...
<i>"Quite simply 'sugarbakers' were those who worked in Britain’s sugarhouses or sugar refineries. As the 17th century European sugar industry was dominated by Amsterdam and Hamburg, the name was derived from the Dutch 'suikerbakker' and the German 'Zuckerbäcker', and it was variously written as sugar baker, sugar-baker, or sugarbaker. The English language had no equivalent word or phrase for ‘worker in a sugarhouse’, so the word was not translated from the German but was a German word, brought here by Germans, spoken by Germans, and entered into our language, albeit for a short time, because those who heard it understood it and accepted it without question. Particularly in the early years, sugarbaker referred to worker and owner alike. 'Sugarbaker' is the normal form you’ll find in documents written in Britain by those associated with the churches, schools, charities and other organisations within the German communities."</i> (Sugarbakers - from Sweat to Sweetness, by Bryan Mawer, pub AGFHS 2011)
In 1691 the job was an unpleasant one. The sugar, at all stages, was boiled in large, open, copper pans over open fires. The process of refining involved boiling with water and eggs (later bulls' blood) as the albumen collected many of the impurities, filtering, repeated boilings to reduce the water content ready for crystalisation, and pouring the very hot liquid sugar into moulds where they would cool and form conical sugar loaves.
The men would work very long hours, almost naked, in temperatures over 100 degrees, with the dangers of fire, scolding, falling through pulley holes, falling into pans, etc, and with only weak beer to drink as the water was so poor.
For a description of the work in 1876, when there had been some improvements (!!), take a look at a page on my website ... www.mawer.clara.net/greenwood.html .
So the knowledge and experience of sugar refining would have helped in the distillery. As far as I know there was no refining in Deptford until 1770, so the City of London would have been the most likely location.
Sorry to ramble, but hope of use.
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It's easiest to quote from my book ...
<i>"Quite simply 'sugarbakers' were those who worked in Britain’s sugarhouses or sugar refineries. As the 17th century European sugar industry was dominated by Amsterdam and Hamburg, the name was derived from the Dutch 'suikerbakker' and the German 'Zuckerbäcker', and it was variously written as sugar baker, sugar-baker, or sugarbaker. The English language had no equivalent word or phrase for ‘worker in a sugarhouse’, so the word was not translated from the German but was a German word, brought here by Germans, spoken by Germans, and entered into our language, albeit for a short time, because those who heard it understood it and accepted it without question. Particularly in the early years, sugarbaker referred to worker and owner alike. 'Sugarbaker' is the normal form you’ll find in documents written in Britain by those associated with the churches, schools, charities and other organisations within the German communities."</i> (Sugarbakers - from Sweat to Sweetness, by Bryan Mawer, pub AGFHS 2011)
In 1691 the job was an unpleasant one. The sugar, at all stages, was boiled in large, open, copper pans over open fires. The process of refining involved boiling with water and eggs (later bulls' blood) as the albumen collected many of the impurities, filtering, repeated boilings to reduce the water content ready for crystalisation, and pouring the very hot liquid sugar into moulds where they would cool and form conical sugar loaves.
The men would work very long hours, almost naked, in temperatures over 100 degrees, with the dangers of fire, scolding, falling through pulley holes, falling into pans, etc, and with only weak beer to drink as the water was so poor.
For a description of the work in 1876, when there had been some improvements (!!), take a look at a page on my website ... www.mawer.clara.net/greenwood.html .
So the knowledge and experience of sugar refining would have helped in the distillery. As far as I know there was no refining in Deptford until 1770, so the City of London would have been the most likely location.
Sorry to ramble, but hope of use.
Yes it has helped. Thank you. :)
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I wouldn't be worrying too much about other people's trees. Now that you have Ancestry, try looking at baptisms at Deptford to Wm Stanley (not William). There seem to be plenty of possibles to consider.
I did find this baptism of Mary at St Nicholas Church Deptford 1706/07:
"7th of January. Mary daughter of Wm. Stanley, Distiller at the Upper Wales (?) gate."
:)
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It's easiest to quote from my book ...
<i>"Quite simply 'sugarbakers' were those who worked in Britain’s sugarhouses or sugar refineries. As the 17th century European sugar industry was dominated by Amsterdam and Hamburg, the name was derived from the Dutch 'suikerbakker' and the German 'Zuckerbäcker', and it was variously written as sugar baker, sugar-baker, or sugarbaker. The English language had no equivalent word or phrase for ‘worker in a sugarhouse’, so the word was not translated from the German but was a German word, brought here by Germans, spoken by Germans, and entered into our language, albeit for a short time, because those who heard it understood it and accepted it without question. Particularly in the early years, sugarbaker referred to worker and owner alike. 'Sugarbaker' is the normal form you’ll find in documents written in Britain by those associated with the churches, schools, charities and other organisations within the German communities."</i> (Sugarbakers - from Sweat to Sweetness, by Bryan Mawer, pub AGFHS 2011)
In 1691 the job was an unpleasant one. The sugar, at all stages, was boiled in large, open, copper pans over open fires. The process of refining involved boiling with water and eggs (later bulls' blood) as the albumen collected many of the impurities, filtering, repeated boilings to reduce the water content ready for crystalisation, and pouring the very hot liquid sugar into moulds where they would cool and form conical sugar loaves.
The men would work very long hours, almost naked, in temperatures over 100 degrees, with the dangers of fire, scolding, falling through pulley holes, falling into pans, etc, and with only weak beer to drink as the water was so poor.
For a description of the work in 1876, when there had been some improvements (!!), take a look at a page on my website ... www.mawer.clara.net/greenwood.html .
So the knowledge and experience of sugar refining would have helped in the distillery. As far as I know there was no refining in Deptford until 1770, so the City of London would have been the most likely location.
Sorry to ramble, but hope of use.
I just found this Quaker marriage certificate on Find My Past.
It states that William was a Sugar Baker, of Thames Street London, and the son of a Thomas Stanley who was a Husbandman of Cheshire. His wife was Mary Simons, and they were married 1689 in London. These were parents of the Thurston baptised in 1691, who died in 1692. Mary was a daughter of Robert Simons, who was a Hoop Maker:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=TNA%2FRG6%2F1437%2F0%2F0767&parentid=TNA%2FRG6%2FMAR%2F54545%2F1
:)
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Thank you. That's useful to have located him in London. He'll be on the database in a few days.
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Thank you. That's useful to have located him in London. He'll be on the database in a few days.
Cheers. :)
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I did find this baptism of Mary at St Nicholas Church Deptford 1706/07:
"7th of January. Mary daughter of Wm. Stanley, Distiller at the Upper Wales (?) gate."
It's Upper Water gate, which was essentially a continuation of King Street.
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I did find this baptism of Mary at St Nicholas Church Deptford 1706/07:
"7th of January. Mary daughter of Wm. Stanley, Distiller at the Upper Wales (?) gate."
It's Upper Water gate, which was essentially a continuation of King Street.
Thanks very much,
I have also since found more baptisms at the same church:
Charles (1692), Mary (1694). Mary probably died before January 1706, because they had another daughter baptised called Mary then.
Then there was an "Elisha". On the original image it states "son of". On Ancestry's database it states "daughter of". Elisha was baptised 11.05.1696.
Then: Isabella (baptised 1698, buried July 1698).
George- Baptised 1699. Buried 8th of April 1700.
Henry and Dunn, twins baptised on the 14th of April 1704.
These two may possibly be a bit of a mystery. The father William was then a "Caulker of ye(?) Greene."
Dunn was buried 9th of May 1704. Henry was buried in June 1704. On both of these occasions, the father William was put down as a "Caulker" on the burial register.
Only three months later, Thurston Stanley was baptised on the 21st of September, and William's occupation was: "a Distiller of King Street." There is another post about that here. One person was wandering if two William Stanley's were having children baptised in Deptford at the same time.
I'm not sure about that one. ???
Here is the post about this:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=489000.0
What I have managed to find out is that my William probably was not the William Stanley, Sugar Baker:
From a Quaker baptism on Find My Past, I found out that Thurston (spelt Thurstian) Stanley was born on the 21st of July 1691, in Stepney to William Stanley, Sugar Baker and his wife Mary.
Thurston was buried on the 14th of April 1692. This is from Find My Past:
"Thurston Stanley, son of Wm and Mary Stanley of Shoreditch parish, aged about eleven months died the 14th of August 1692." He was buried at Peel.
In the meantime before this, the Wm Stanley of Deptford had a son Charles baptised on the 24th of April 1692.
So I know now it is likely that my William was the William Stanley who married Mary Webster at St Nicholas Church, Deptford, on the 28th of July 1687.
:) ;)
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I found this burial on Ancestry:
"September 9th 1710: Mary, wife of Wm Stanley, Calker(?) from the Green.":
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1624/31280_196169-00315?pid=2370266&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1624%26h%3D2370266%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DeRo18651%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=eRo18651&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
So there possibly may have been two Wm Stanley's having children baptised at the same church. ???
:) ;)
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I'm late to this.
Robin, would you like to see my tree on Ancestry? All my Stanley's have the middle name Thurston...
Let me know.
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I'm late to this.
Robin, would you like to see my tree on Ancestry? All my Stanley's have the middle name Thurston...
Let me know.
Yes please. That would be nice thank you.
My username on Ancestry is: richardebdon1.
I believe we have some connection somewhere.
I remember replying to a post that you had put up not too long ago relating to the Stanleys.
Regards.