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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: chris_49 on Friday 07 September 18 22:25 BST (UK)

Title: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: chris_49 on Friday 07 September 18 22:25 BST (UK)
I wonder if you can help me. Although I'm quite experienced at England and Wales FH, this is my first foray into Ireland. Please bear with this long post but I'd like to give all that I have so far.

The problem concerns Elizabeth Nolan born about 1893 who married my great uncle Robert Francis (Frank) Davies in Paddington district in 1928 (a cert that is being sent for). His grandchildren are very interested to know about their grandparents (who they never knew) and forebears - their father, their grandparents' only (surviving) child died recently.

I found Robert Frank and Elizabeth on the 1939 register and all details seem correct - his birth and occupation (bricklayer). Their son is not there, not even redacted - believed evacuated to Ireland. Cissie (as she was known) is given a DoB of 24/4/1893 which is probably about right - she may have underplayed her age being older than her husband, but not by much as she had a child in 1937.

I always knew that Cissie was from the New Ross area but with a vague clue to Glynn, Co Carlow, to which my cousins have added a possibility of Graiguenamanagh. A cousin of their father's generation was over from Canada recently and remembers visiting the family in Ireland a couple of times and swimming in the Barrow, though by that time the family were in Co Wexford (Duncannon was mentioned).

My Canadian cousin knew of only two of Cissie's siblings - a nun, Sister Anthony (clearly not her birth name) and a younger sister Katie who was deaf and dumb, as they said in those days. I know this name can be for Kathleen, Catherine or Caitlin but I hoped that she might be identified by an entry in the disability column of the census.

Katie came to England to live with her sister, and after Cissie died her son and daughter-in-law were about to go and work abroad for some years, so Katie went to live in a home in Essex where she was believed to have died. My best guess for her death is in Colchester district in 1978 as Kathleen Nolan born 15/9/1898 though these details may be wrong if this report was by a non-relative (so Catherine Nolan b1893 died same year and place is not out of the equation) .

There are promising births for Elizabeth (June quarter 1893) and Catherine (Sept 1898) in New Ross district which includes south Carlow, but I despaired of finding them on the 1901 or 1911 census - all entries were much too far north. But I found a good possibility in 1901 - Patrick Nolan 60, his wife Eliza 44, a brother-in-law and 10 children including Lizzie, 8, and Katie - seems to be 4 but there is a smudge and it has been transcribed as 1.

Against this Elizabeth is transcribed Lizzie when she was always Cissie in later life (I always knew this stood for Elizabeth) and for Katie both ages wiould be slightly wrong. There is no entry in the disability column which would not be surprising for a one-yaer-old (they might not have yet known) but would be known for a 4-year-old - and the entry "Cannot Read" would be an odd factoid to put by a one-year-old.

I found the family again in 1911 and many of the children are not there - left home or died - but Katie is one of those missing. (All the others match, assuming Johanna is ""Hannie"). I looked for her elsewhere, and both entries I found are too old at 15, but both cases where the head of household often gets ages wrong. One was a servant in Co Carlow - surely a 13-year old would not be working as such in 1911 - but the other was nore interesting.

A Katie Nolan, 15, born Carlow, no disability given, was a pupil at Goldenbridge Industrial School in Kilmainham in 1911 - in contrast to most of her fellow-pupils who were from Dublin. I've Googled this place and pretty grim it sounds. If it was mainly taking girls from the police courts guilty of begging and theiving, is it likely that a Carlow deaf-and-dumb girl might end up there?

Apology for long post but I know people hate doing look-ups of stuff the OP actually had already. Chris



Title: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: chris_49 on Friday 07 September 18 22:27 BST (UK)
I wonder if you can help me. Although I'm quite experienced at England and Wales FH, this is my first foray into Ireland. Please bear with this long post but I'd like to give all that I have so far.

The problem concerns Elizabeth Nolan born about 1893 who married my great uncle Robert Francis (Frank) Davies in Paddington district in 1928 (a cert that is being sent for). His grandchildren are very interested to know about their grandparents (who they never knew) and forebears - their father, their grandparents' only (surviving) child died recently.

I found Robert Frank and Elizabeth on the 1939 register and all details seem correct - his birth and occupation (bricklayer). Their son is not there, not even redacted - believed evacuated to Ireland. Cissie (as she was known) is given a DoB of 24/4/1893 which is probably about right - she may have underplayed her age being older than her husband, but not by much as she had a child in 1937.

I always knew that Cissie was from the New Ross area but with a vague clue to Glynn, Co Carlow, to which my cousins have added a possibility of Graiguenamanagh. A cousin of their father's generation was over from Canada recently and remembers visiting the family in Ireland a couple of times and swimming in the Barrow, though by that time the family were in Co Wexford (Duncannon was mentioned).

My Canadian cousin knew of only two of Cissie's siblings - a nun, Sister Anthony (clearly not her birth name) and a younger sister Katie who was deaf and dumb, as they said in those days. I know this name can be for Kathleen, Catherine or Caitlin but I hoped that she might be identified by an entry in the disability column of the census.

Katie came to England to live with her sister, and after Cissie died her son and daughter-in-law were about to go and work abroad for some years, so Katie went to live in a home in Essex where she was believed to have died. My best guess for her death is in Colchester district in 1978 as Kathleen Nolan born 15/9/1898 though these details may be wrong if this report was by a non-relative (so Catherine Nolan b1893 died same year and place is not out of the equation) .

There are promising births for Elizabeth (June quarter 1893) and Catherine (Sept 1898) in New Ross district which includes south Carlow, but I despaired of finding them on the 1901 or 1911 census - all entries were much too far north. But I found a good possibility in 1901 - Patrick Nolan 60, his wife Eliza 44, a brother-in-law and 10 children including Lizzie, 8, and Katie - seems to be 4 but there is a smudge and it has been transcribed as 1, in Balmaha, between Glynn and Graigue

Against this Elizabeth is transcribed Lizzie when she was always Cissie in later life (I always knew this stood for Elizabeth) and for Katie both ages wiould be slightly wrong. There is no entry in the disability column which would not be surprising for a one-year-old (they might not have yet known) but would be known for a 4-year-old - and the entry "Cannot Read" would be an odd factoid to put by a one-year-old.

I found the family again in 1911 and many of the children are not there - left home or died - but Katie is one of those missing. (All the others match, assuming Johanna is ""Hannie"). I looked for her elsewhere, and both entries I found are too old at 15, but both cases where the head of household often gets ages wrong. One was a servant in Co Carlow - surely a 13-year old would not be working as such in 1911 - but the other was nore interesting.

A Katie Nolan, 15, born Carlow, no disability given, was a pupil at Goldenbridge Industrial School in Kilmainham in 1911 - in contrast to most of her fellow-pupils who were from Dublin. I've Googled this place and pretty grim it sounds. If it was mainly taking girls from the police courts guilty of begging and theiving, is it likely that a Carlow deaf-and-dumb girl might end up there?

Apology for long post but I know people hate doing look-ups of stuff the OP actually had already. Chris
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: hallmark on Friday 07 September 18 23:37 BST (UK)



You could try a very loose search of 1901 Census as following, see if you can find them

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
.
.
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Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: Sinann on Friday 07 September 18 23:56 BST (UK)
There is a Kate Nolan in the school for Deaf and Dumb from Kilkenny in Castleknock in 1911 aged 13
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Castleknock/Cabragh/3891/
Graiguenamanagh is in Kilkenny.

Do you know their father's name or are you waiting for the marriage cert?
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: hallmark on Saturday 08 September 18 00:02 BST (UK)
I don't think father's name is known.... "Elizabeth Nolan born about 1893 who married my great uncle Robert Francis (Frank) Davies in Paddington district in 1928 (a cert that is being sent for)."
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: Sinann on Saturday 08 September 18 00:04 BST (UK)
I was hopeing the cousin from Canada knew it.
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: hallmark on Saturday 08 September 18 00:11 BST (UK)
There are a couple of returns with a Lizzie and Kate in same household in 1901

e.g  http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Glynn/Bahana/1044941/
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: hallmark on Saturday 08 September 18 00:22 BST (UK)

 

I always knew that Cissie was from the New Ross area but with a vague clue to Glynn, Co Carlow




After reading post again as I missed the Glynn bit.... the 1901 census looks a good POSSIBLE.


Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: gaffy on Saturday 08 September 18 00:47 BST (UK)

... There are promising births for Elizabeth (June quarter 1893) and Catherine (Sept 1898) in New Ross district which includes south Carlow, but I despaired of finding them on the 1901 or 1911 census - all entries were much too far north. But I found a good possibility in 1901 - Patrick Nolan 60, his wife Eliza 44, a brother-in-law and 10 children including Lizzie, 8, and Katie - seems to be 4 but there is a smudge and it has been transcribed as 1.


Just to post the birth registrations for the ones you mean, born in Bahana just over 3 miles south of Graiguenamanagh...

- Elizabeth Nolan born on 27 April 1893:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02301/1863119.pdf
- Catherine Nolan born on 15 September 1898:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02070/1790736.pdf

Parents Patrick Nolan of Bahana and Elizabeth Murphy of Ballyknock married in Glynn RC Chapel in 1883:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10929/5993198.pdf

Possible baptism for Elizabeth Murphy in St. Mullins RC parish, baptised on 19 November 1856, parents given as Pierce Murphy and Anne Doran of Ballyknock (left page):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634577#page/105/mode/1up

Marriage of Pierce Murphy and Anne Doran took place in Borris RC parish on 3 February 1837 (left page):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634409#page/205/mode/1up

Likely will calendars entry for Pierce Murphy's death (administration case), death registration image not available yet on the 'IrishGenealogy' website, but the index shows a reported age of 60 at time of death in 1872):
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014901/005014901_00633.pdf

Griffiths Valuation shows a Pierce Murphy farming just over 51 acres in Ballyknock, local print date was 1852:
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: chris_49 on Saturday 08 September 18 08:53 BST (UK)
Thanks very much to all you night owls - or should I say stars?

As usual in a long post, I missed stuff out. I did mean to add that the promising census record I found was the one in Bahana. (I also meant to ask about the best way to order BMD certs - over here GRO is now much cheaper than individual reg offices - and how to find baptisms if you don't know a parish).

My cousins are willing to spend but not to lash out on likely duds and this line looks promising  but they are convinced they'll find certs in their Dad's papers - still waiting on that, I'd expect his marriage but not sure about his parents'.

This finding of Kate at the deaf and dumb school is very promising. I know Graiguenamanagh is in Kilkenny - oddly enough I passed through in 1987 not knowing the connection - but it's right on the Barrow and my memory is that some of it is over the border in Carlow. (Bahana near the border too). So when Kate joined the school they could have taken the county of the post town - this happens often in England and Wales. 

I was amazed that you found birth records with actual birth dates for both girls. I only had the quarters. These are so nearly exact to the 1939 register and "Kathleen"'s death record that I feel they must be right. I couldn't find a death record for Elizabeth Davies even knowing her supposed exact DoB and place of death - I'll try again. 

I'll try to persuade my cousins to send for any marriage cert not yet found and in any case post updates as soon as anything is known.

Thanks again, Chris
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: Sinann on Saturday 08 September 18 10:13 BST (UK)
Certs are now free and online as you can see from the two birth Certs.
The upload isn't compleat yet but should be by the end of this year.
You can see the dates here
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/what-years-are-covered-by-the-historic-records-of-births-marriages-and-deaths

You know already, you need that marriage cert otherwise it's all just possibilitys.
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: hallmark on Saturday 08 September 18 10:17 BST (UK)
Thanks very much to all you night owls - or should I say stars?
 
 

This finding of Kate at the deaf and dumb school is very promising. I know Graiguenamanagh is in Kilkenny - oddly enough I passed through in 1987 not knowing the connection - but it's right on the Barrow and my memory is that some of it is over the border in Carlow. (Balmaha near the border too). So when Kate joined the school they could have taken the county of the post town - this happens often in England and Wales. 
 

Thanks again, Chris


Doesn't the Census record say she was from Co. Carlow??  From memory... I think it did!!
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: Sinann on Saturday 08 September 18 10:23 BST (UK)
Thanks very much to all you night owls - or should I say stars?
 
 

This finding of Kate at the deaf and dumb school is very promising. I know Graiguenamanagh is in Kilkenny - oddly enough I passed through in 1987 not knowing the connection - but it's right on the Barrow and my memory is that some of it is over the border in Carlow. (Balmaha near the border too). So when Kate joined the school they could have taken the county of the post town - this happens often in England and Wales. 
 

Thanks again, Chris


Doesn't the Census record say she was from Co. Carlow??  From memory... I think it did!!
No, Kilkenny.
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: hallmark on Saturday 08 September 18 10:24 BST (UK)
This one is from Carlow

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/New_Kilmainham/Goldenbridge_Industrial_School/57665/

Nolan   Katie   15   Female   -   Roman Catholic   Carlow
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: Sinann on Saturday 08 September 18 10:26 BST (UK)
This one is from Carlow

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/New_Kilmainham/Goldenbridge_Industrial_School/57665/

Nolan   Katie   15   Female   -   Roman Catholic   Carlow
That's not the deaf and dumb school
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: chris_49 on Saturday 08 September 18 10:38 BST (UK)
I should add that my Canadian cousin was very young when she visited Ireland and doesn't remember any siblings bar "Sister Anthony" and Katie (who she knew well as she came to live in England). But in the late 40s or early 50s the farm she visited cannot have been run by Patrick and Eliza (or anyone else of that generation if that is wrong) so it may well have been managed by one or more of Cissie's elder siblings. (Sister Anthony lived at a convent in or near Waterford, to add a fourth county to the mix.)

Yes the Goldenbridge Industrial school now seems unlikely for Katie, fortunately for her if not for those who lived there.
 
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: Maggsie on Saturday 08 September 18 13:54 BST (UK)
Hi Chris_49
Reading your post . you are on the right track keep digging.
use this site
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie
you will get the births, deaths and marriages etc.
Maggsie
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: hallmark on Saturday 08 September 18 14:02 BST (UK)
Already replies on the OTHER thread!!

Threads merged.
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: Maggsie on Saturday 08 September 18 14:07 BST (UK)
Great the more the merrier!
Maggsie
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 08 September 18 14:18 BST (UK)
Possibly a Rootschat problem with new threads being duplicated? I noticed quite a few repeated topics earlier today.
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: hallmark on Saturday 08 September 18 14:18 BST (UK)
Saves you wasting your time looking for stuff that has already been found.
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: chris_49 on Saturday 08 September 18 14:31 BST (UK)
I amended my first post whilst the first one was being moderated, but the amendment wasn't moderated until the morning, so two threads. Need to be merged now I think. Chris

Threads merged.

Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: chris_49 on Sunday 09 September 18 11:28 BST (UK)
Thank you, moderator
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: chris_49 on Monday 26 November 18 10:30 GMT (UK)
My cousin has received his grandparent's marriage certificate. As expected, it's at a Catholic church (St Mary of the Angels, Bayswater) on 14th February 1928 - how fitting! Robert Francis Davies (Bricklayer) father William Davies (Sanitary Inspector) married Elizabeth Nolan, no occupation, father Patrick Nolan (farmer, deceased).

Apart from William having got a promotion from refuse collector, this is all as expected and so helpfully worked out by all you good people who posted above - so thanks very much for that.

The only caveat is that Cissie gives her age as 31 (same as her husband) when she must in fact have been 34! Perhaps this is just a little white lie - perhaps even Frank didn't know!

Anyway this and the near exact match between her birth date as given on the 1939 pre-war register and the record you found means that my cousin can now send for Cissie's birth certificate. Thanks again to everyone who helped.

Chris
 
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: chris_49 on Monday 21 June 21 08:54 BST (UK)
Reviving this old thread because my cousin has now sent his parents' GRO marriage certificate to the Irish government to try to obtain citizenship,  but the people there are saying they need to see the "original". Of course the original is long lost, but will they accept the version provided by the registration district, to wit Paddingtion (now part of Westminster)?

It doesn't help that the link from FreeBMD to the Westminster page produces a 404 error.

Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: chris_49 on Monday 21 June 21 08:58 BST (UK)
Got into Westminster site, but "We do not hold any original Roman Catholic registers. However we do hold transcripts of various registers", so no use either. So who has the originals?
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: Wexflyer on Wednesday 23 June 21 01:14 BST (UK)
Reviving this old thread because my cousin has now sent his parents' GRO marriage certificate to the Irish government to try to obtain citizenship,  but the people there are saying they need to see the "original". Of course the original is long lost, but will they accept the version provided by the registration district, to wit Paddingtion (now part of Westminster)?

It doesn't help that the link from FreeBMD to the Westminster page produces a 404 error.

I am confused. A fully certified GRO copy is legal evidence. This has always been accepted.
Your cousin needs to query this.  Obviously the "original" can never be supplied, as it is in a register book, that will never leave the registry office.

Which GRO are you talking about?

I suspect that something is missing in this story. Perhaps your cousin mailed off a photocopy of the GRO registration, rather than a certified copy? The Irish Passport/Citizenship Office requires certified copies, and probably calls the certified copy an "original".
Title: Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
Post by: chris_49 on Wednesday 23 June 21 06:00 BST (UK)
Thanks for this. There was a discussion in the Common room and no-one could ndestand why the Irish authorities would not accept a certified copy from the British GRO, other people had successfully used this. Perhaps, as you say, my cousin submitted a photocopy. I'll ask him.