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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hertfordshire => Topic started by: LizzieL on Saturday 08 September 18 09:24 BST (UK)
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Mary Ann Sumner was born on 20 April 1836 in Bishops Stortford, daughter of James Sumner and his wife Ann nee Livermore. In 1841 she is with her parents in New Town Bishops Stortford. Her mother died in 1842 (buried 19 Feb) and James remarried. In 1851 she is with father James, stepmother Elizabeth (nee Ive she is the second stepmother - Ann and Austen have different mmn to James T) and three half siblings (Ann, Austen and James Tucker Sumner) in South Street BS. After this she seems to disappear.
Can anyone find her after 1851, please?
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There is a marriage
4th March 1854 Bishops Stortford
Mary Ann Sumner 18 yrs, father James Sumner and John Parker
Heywood
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The marriage was at St Michael’s church and John’s father was William.
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Thank you, I missed that. I didn't expect her to marry so young. Her mother married at 17 and she was 8 and half months pregnant at the time!
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I can’t see them afterwards though.
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no, neither can I. No children for Parker mmn Sumner except in Blackburn and there is a marriage for a Winifred Sumner with an Isaac Parker on same page in 1851 in Blackburn
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A John Parker died Q3 1854 in BS district he was 26, could be him
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Searching for a Mary Ann b 1836 +/- 1 in BS I get a Mary Ann Ive husband Robert Ive b Clare, living in London. Checking mmn of son George I get Sumner. So Mar Ann seems to have remarried to a relative of her step mother.
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Banns
9th November 1856 St Mary, Lambeth
Robert I’ve, bachelor and Mary Ann Parker, widow.
Marriage 30th November 1856
Mary Ann Parker widow - father James Sumner, Fishmonger
Robert Ive, Butcher
Witnesses James Youles and Susannah Youles
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thanks again, Now I've only got to find the mother of Ann and Austen Sumner (mmn Giffen) and I think I have family sorted.
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Banns
9th November 1856 St Mary, Lambeth
Robert I’ve, bachelor and Mary Ann Parker, widow.
Marriage 30th November 1856
Mary Ann Parker widow - father James Sumner, Fishmonger
Robert Ive, Butcher
Witnesses James Youles and Susannah Youles
found image of marriage record, I think witness is Harry Youles not James. In 1861 there is a henry and Susanna Youles living in Lambeth, she was born Clare, Suffolk. Marriage for Henry Youles in Lambeth 1848, two Susannas on same page Ive and Mutton, I reckon it's Ive and she's Robert's sister, but what relation is he to Mary Ann's stepmother?
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Robert's parents Thomas and Mehitabel, so were Susanna's
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Elizabeth Ive's marriage record says her father was Thomas cabinet maker deceased. so sister (or possibly half sister ) to the other two.
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Her Thomas was a carpenter not cabinet maker - could be same chap - it's all working with wood
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You’re too far ahead :)
I have just come back and found Robert in 1841 with mum and siblings but Elizabeth was already in BS then.
If both have father Thomas then they would seem to be siblings.
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I think Elizabeth was bapt as Elizabeth Ann Ive d/o Thomas and Mehitabel in Clare on 15 nov 1824, his occ is cabinet maker.
So the only loose end is the Giffen / Sumner marriage, sometime after Ann nee Livermore died in 1842 and marriage to Elizabeth Ive
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1841 has Ann Giffin/s 15 yrs as a servant in Bishops Stortford
Piece 434/12/18
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There's a Susanna Giffin in same household as James Sumner and 1st wife Ann, but can't find a marriage between them, or any Giffin ???
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You would need the birth certificates to confirm the mother’s name but Susannah looks likely.
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Austin Sumner baptised in BS on 14 sep 1853 s/o James and Elizabeth. father occ fishmonger. If it's same Austin he would be 5 or 6
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just found image - he is 6
so was James' 2nd wife Elizabeth Giffin or has the forename of 3rd wife been recorded on baptism record?
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just noted two other children of James and Elizabeth baptised on same day, no ages given and they aren't on 1851 census so they would be Elizabeth Ive's children.
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Found Harriet Sumner mmn Giffin born and died Q3 1848. Death of Elizabeth Sumner age 34 same quarter, reference one digit different from Harriet. So it is looking like it was Elizabeth Giffin
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Harriet buried 15 Aug and Elizabeth on 29 Aug at St Michaels. BS
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1842 marriage West Ham has Elizabeth Giffen and James Sumner on same page. No idea if they were spouses.
Does this fit with your timeline?
There is an 1840, Bishops Stortford marriage with Elizabeth Giffen amongst spouses - so she would have a married name if she were to later marry James.
And another in BS in 1842 ::)
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His first wife died in February 1842, so the West Ham one is a possibility - a bit quick though. But first Sumner child with mmn Giffin ref in Q2 1843, so it looks likely. The Livermores have form for nipping down to north London for a quick and quiet marriage, perhaps it rubbed of Ann Livermore's widower
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According to published trees the other spouses married each other so James and Elizabeth seem to be a couple in West Ham - whether yours or not is a different matter.
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Given that the name combinations are not very common, I think they must be mine. Maybe they went away from home because he was marrying so soon after Ann's death. This part was just an aside, I was most interested in tracking Ann Livermore's daughter Mary Ann. She was left £50 in 1846 by her maternal grandfather. As she was only 10 then, it was possibly held in trust for her until she came of age or maybe until she married. But no mention was made of that in the will.
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Found the marriage record in Woodford, obvious place when you head south out of BS and keep off the M11. It says they were both of Woodford. James was widower, father James publican. She's a spinster father Benjamin Giffin, gardener. Witnesses Mary Giffin and William Sumner
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Found 3 couples on freebmd, but there should be four
Edward Francis Howe married Sarah Gascoyne
William Oughton married Hannah Allan
Peter Cooper married Martha Ann Walker
as well as my James and Elizabeth
William Oughton and Sarah Gascoyne were missing from fre ???ebmd search
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I think Elizabeth was born in Chigwell d/o Benjamin Giffin and Catherine nee Collin. Benjamin was born in BS. This Elizabeth has sisters Susannah, Mary and Harriet.
and Benjamin is a gardener in 1851
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Mary Ann Sumner was born on 20 April 1836 in Bishops Stortford, daughter of James Sumner and his wife Ann nee Livermore. In 1841 she is with her parents in New Town Bishops Stortford. Her mother died in 1842 (buried 19 Feb) and James remarried. In 1851 she is with father James, stepmother Elizabeth (nee Ive she is the second stepmother - Ann and Austen have different mmn to James T) and three half siblings (Ann, Austen and James Tucker Sumner) in South Street BS. After this she seems to disappear.
Can anyone find her after 1851, please?
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Hi, I am doing my Sumner family genealogy at the moment and are related to James Tucker Sumner born in Bishop Stortford in 1817. James 1st wife was Ann as you state and they had a daughter Mary Ann. Ann died not long after the 1841 census. James then married Elizabeth Tucker. I know it is Tucker because I have the death cert for their son James Tucker born in 1851 who died I think the following year. James only married twice as far as i know and the rest of the children after Mary Ann are James and Elizabeths. Their last born was our James Tucker Sumner born 1864. It was not unusual back then to name a child after one who had died. I think it is the 1911 census and Austen Sumner is boarding in London with his sister Mary Ann Ive (her married name) Austens half sister. She has two children. May I ask you how you fit into the Sumner family. Kind Regards. I am a New Zealander. ps James and Elizabeth owned the Maltsters Arms Beerhouse in Bishop Stortford for 20 years until some time after 1871. there was a new owner by 1881.
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Hi, Just further to my reply I gave you the wrong year or the census that has Mary Ann living in London. It is 1881.
The address is 70 Lang Bldgs, London Middlesex. Mary Ann Ive Head 45 years born Bishop Stortord
Alfred Ive son 19 " " " Middlesex
Emily Ive daur 16 " " " "
Annie Ive daur 14 " " "
Austin Sumner brother 34 " " " Bishop Stortford
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Hi
H.A.L.S. has these . . . . .
James Sumner
Ann Livermore
Bishops Stortford
marriage register
2 Apr 1836
John Parker of Bishops Stortford
Mary Ann Sumner of Bishops Stortford
Bishops Stortford
marriage register
4 Mar 1854
Perhaps this is why James wasn't in the pub in 1861 . . . . .
James Sumner
26 May 1855
Bishops Stortford
Defendant
Weights and measuers conviction
Hertfordshire Quarter Sessions
QSCB/2 (Page 22)
Ray
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Hi, I am doing my Sumner family genealogy at the moment and are related to James Tucker Sumner born in Bishop Stortford in 1817. James 1st wife was Ann as you state and they had a daughter Mary Ann. Ann died not long after the 1841 census. James then married Elizabeth Tucker. I know it is Tucker because I have the death cert for their son James Tucker born in 1851 who died I think the following year. James only married twice as far as i know and the rest of the children after Mary Ann are James and Elizabeths. Their last born was our James Tucker Sumner born 1864. It was not unusual back then to name a child after one who had died. I think it is the 1911 census and Austen Sumner is boarding in London with his sister Mary Ann Ive (her married name) Austens half sister. She has two children. May I ask you how you fit into the Sumner family. Kind Regards. I am a New Zealander. ps James and Elizabeth owned the Maltsters Arms Beerhouse in Bishop Stortford for 20 years until some time after 1871. there was a new owner by 1881.
Mary Ann Sumner's mother (Ann Livermore) was the sister of my husband's 2 x great grandfather (Daniel Livermore jnr). There was a third sibling Mary who married William Bull, but it looks as if they separated after a brief marriage - they had no children. Mary Ann Sumner is mentioned in the will of Daniel Livermore snr's will. He was father to Ann, Mary and Daniel jnr and grandfather to Mary Ann. Ann Sumner nee Livermore was buried in B Stortford on 19 Feb 1842. As far as I can see she had no full siblings, or at least none still living when Daniel snr died on 23 June 1846 otherwise I would expect them to be mentioned in his will.
The Maltster's Arms is mentioned here
https://www.stortfordhistory.co.uk/guide15/upper-south-street/
Daniel Livermore snr was a maltmaker.
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Hi
H.A.L.S. has these . . . . .
James Sumner
Ann Livermore
Bishops Stortford
marriage register
2 Apr 1836
John Parker of Bishops Stortford
Mary Ann Sumner of Bishops Stortford
Bishops Stortford
marriage register
4 Mar 1854
Thanks, I had the marriage to John Parker, but hadn't got any further. Presumably he died and she later married a Mr Ive.
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Got the marriage now
30 Nov 1856 in Lambeth to Robert Ive. Her father James Sumner is a fish monger. Presumably having lost his licence for the pub the previous year.
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Just seen 1871 census, he was still at pub, down as fishmonger and beer dealer, In 1851 he was coal merchant and beer dealer, but in 1841 he was a clerk.
Still looking for family in 1861.
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He's at no 25 South Street, BS in 1861, occ fishmonger and fruiterer.
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ps James and Elizabeth owned the Maltsters Arms Beerhouse in Bishop Stortford for 20 years until some time after 1871. there was a new owner by 1881.
James and Elizabeth did not own the Maltster's Arms, they rented it. James died on 4 Jan 1874. I have come across a newspaper article where his widow, Elizabeth, was taken to court (in 1877) for non-payment of rent on the Maltster's Arms owed before James's death.
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Hi Ray, Yes I did see on the 1841 census a womans name with the surname Griffin. I have no idea who she is. As for James Sumner having three wives that is news to me. I have copies of the 1851 census through to 1871 and on all three census Elizabeth is from Clare Suffolk. Your information as regards weights and measures and James Death is valuable information for me. I'm not sure if you had a marriage date there for James and Elizabeth I will read back and check. On the 1871 census all the children are there except the two eldest Mary Ann and Ann. Since 1861 there are two more children. the children after Ann are Austen, Sarah, Elizabeth, Jullia and our James. And I think as you remarked still at the Maltsters Arms. I only got onto that by deciphering the bad writing. I will put James Tucker Sumners name on the forum and see if anyone has further information. James did end up living in Lewisham London where he married. His sister Elizabeth is there also. Must add nearly forgot Brother George is not living at home in 1871 census. He is the next child after Sarah. Sarah dies in 1875 or there abouts in Bishop Stortford.
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The maiden name of Austen Sumner's mother is Giffin. There is a marriage of a James Sumner to an Elizabeth Giffin in Woodford Essex on 17 July 1842. James is a widower and a butcher. His father is also called James and a publican. Elizabeth is a spinster. There is a death of an Elizabeth Sumner in BS Q3 1848 age 34.
James Tucker Sumner has mother's maiden name Ive.
James Sumner widower married Elizabeth Ive spinster at Marylebone on 5 May 1850. He was a coal merchant, father was James a barge master. Elizabeth's father was Thomas Ive gardener deceased. Witnesses Edmund Austin, Louise (?- rather faint) Austin and James Tucker.
Three marriages.
Second wife also Elizabeth - married and died between 1841 and 1851 censuses, therefore only 3rd wife (second Elizabeth ) is on censuses.
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Elizabeth Giffin may be related to the Susanna Giffin nbic (poss Essex) who is with James and 1st wife Ann nee Livermore in 1841.
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Witnesses to Sumner / Giffin marriage were Henry Giffin and William Sumner. Elizabeth's father was Benjamin Giffin occ gardener.
Fortunately James Sumner could sign his name, so can compare signatures on this marriage and that with Ann Livermore.
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Looks like Mary Ann's second husband and her father James's 3rd wife might be related - both Ive born in Clare, Suffolk.
Robert Ive was buried as Robert Mortlock Ive even though he married as Robert Ive. His parents were Thomas Ive and Mehetabel Mortlock. They married on 15 Oct 1815.
It looks as if Mehetabel is a widow in 1841, youngest child with her is 4. There is the death of a Thomas Ive in Risbridge district in 1839. His age is 44. Could be him.
Thomas and Mehetabel had a daughter Elizabeth Ann Ive bapt in Clare on 15 Nov 1824. As Elizabeth Ive said her father was Thomas occ gardener. It is looking like Mary Ann married her stepmother's younger brother after her first husband died.
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Hi, Many, Many thanks for all the information on James Sumner and his three wives. I have this census of 1861.
James Tucker Head 58yrs Miller and Baker (master) employing 3 men and 2 boys. Born B.S.
Julia Ives Niece 38yrs Housekeeper/Domestic Servant Born suffolk Clare
Sarah Sumner Niece 9 Scholar Born B.S.
The next three are one servant and two boy bakers.
The Sarah Sumner will be my James daughter. The address is South Street.
And of interest James Tucker in the same year 1861 marries Julia Susannah Ive in East London in June 1861.
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Hi, I meant to ask is James Tucker, Elizabeth Ives Uncle and Julia her sister. I'm just wondering why in my James and Elizabeths' family Sarah and James their youngest were given the middle name Tucker? I thought that, that was usually their Mothers maiden name hence my getting all confused and thinking Elizabeth Ive was Elizabeth Tucker.
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Julia's father was Thomas, but a cabinet maker on marriage licence. James Tucker's father was John, can't read occupation.
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James Tucker died on 27 Jan 1868 in BS. Probate to James Sumner and John Slater.
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James Tucker's first wife was Sarah Mortlock b Clare Suffolk. She was daughter of Thomas Mortlock and Sarah Robinson Mortlock, therefore Sarah was the sister of Mehetabel Mortlock.
Julia Susanna Ive was daughter of Mehetabel and Thomas Ive, so Julia S was James Tucker's niece by marriage (as well as his 2nd wife) and the sister of Mary Ann Sumner's 2nd husband (Robert Ive) and also the sister of James Sumner's 3rd wife Elizabeth Ive.
Now trying to enter them on my FTM software - it's not coping well!