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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: MarkyP on Saturday 08 September 18 11:27 BST (UK)
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Hello all, I'm hoping you might be able to explain how to use a match for your DNA on Ancestry.com.
To fully explain my mother learnt a number of years ago that her father (my grandfather) wasn't her biological father. So we have both done a DNA test with Ancestry and until recently had no really close matches, only 4th to 6th cousins, which would take a lot of research. However last week she got a match for a second cousin which got us quite excited. My mother has researched her maternal side of the family thoroughly and this second cousin doesn't seem to be from that side.
My understanding is that the match could be a second cousin or a first cousin once removed in which case the shared ancestor would be a great grandparent, is this correct? Is it as simple as researching the 2nd cousins ancestry (she hasn't done it from the tree that's on Ancestry) and if the cousin doesn't pop up on her maternal side (which I'm pretty sure she doesn't) then the match would be from my mother's unknown paternal side? And one of the descendants from this cousins great grandparents would be my mother's biological father?
Thanks for any help in advance and I hope that makes sense.
Mark.
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From my own personal experience, I have a 1st-2nd cousin who shares a Gt.grandmother with me. Also have two 2nd-3rd cousins - in both cases one of their parents share a Gt.grandparent with me.
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Mark, DNA isn't an exact science, but at 2nd cousin range is likely to be extremely close.
Technically, as I'm sure you know, a second cousin shares great grandparents with your mother. With DNA a second cousin match could include 1st Cousins (1x removed), 2G Uncle or Aunt, 2nd Cousins,1st Cousins (2x removed), so could theoretically share grandparents, great grandparents or 2G grandparents.
Hopefully the match will reply to any messages you or your mother send, and from his/her age and tree, if any, you may be able to work it out. He/she (they) may have close cousins from this same line that appear as the more remote 4th to 6th cousins that you have already noted.
Work for the moment on 2nd cousins, perhaps the most likely, until/unless you hear from this match.
Then look for shared matches between you, your mother and this match - any surnames that crop up in common between the three of you could prove useful.
Exciting, hope you find some answers, Gadget found her great grandfather.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800065.0
Regards Margaret
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Thanks very much for your answers.
So Margaret, do I need to go back to this match's 2G grandparents? Is that to work out 2G uncles and aunts?
Cheers,
Mark.
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Everyone will tackle this differently.
My first step would be to contact this match. Not sure I would mention the problem first, more along the lines of 'We have come up as second cousin matches, I'm not sure how we connect'.
If they have an online tree, definitely look at children of their 8 great grandparents. Try to find someone of the right age and in the right place to be your mother's father, your grandfather in the tree.
If they haven't got a tree, or its private, or only mention direct ancestors, you will have to investigate backwards with any names you have.
My only reservation is that, although you probably share great grandparents, you do need to have some idea of whether you are the same generation or not.
My husband's great niece is a match with him at myheritageDNA, any children she had could show up as potential 2nd cousins.
So, in this case, the common ancestor is actually my husband's father, not his grandfather, so you and your mother could possibly be descended from the same person as your match, not a sibling of his.
There are a lot of other possibilities as well.
Take a look at shared cM project
https://thegeneticgenealogist.com/2017/08/26/august-2017-update-to-the-shared-cm-project/
Would love to know how you get on.
Regards Margaret
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It is worth looking at mutual matches to your DNA with this 2nd cousin check location matches with mutual 3rd and 4th cousins if you can pinpoint a village that may give an extra clue ..
You can work out who are the mutual matches with your grandmother among more distant cousin matches of you and your mother and then look at mutual matches who don't have surnames in common.
An unknown 2nd cousin for my mother turned out to have mutual grandmother but he new nothing about her let alone that she.d had a daughter before marrying his grandfather.
Good luck
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Margaret has asked me to explain how I found my great grandfather:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800065.msg6575891#msg6575891
Briefly:
First of all you need to know as much as possible about your grandmother. I knew quite a lot about my great grandmother's locations around the time of my grandfather's conception. She moved between the two. I also knew the first names and occupation of great grandfather.
I found a very distinctive group that, after usual genealogical research, I found to be descended from two brothers. These took me to the correct locations and time period and found that they had a brother with the first names and occupation that I knew about. I constructed trees for each of the brothers. Further discussion with these matches confirmed the findings.
Gadget
Added - the primary matches were at 3rdC or 3rdC1R level.
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Forgot to add that there was no other possible relationship between us. That was why I constructed the trees, just in case.
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Another general tip:
Don't take any of the matches' trees as accurate. I tend to check and triple check them. In a couple of instances with a matched pair, one had entered the wrong husband and one had entered the wrong father. It made quite a difference!
Also, not all people on Ancestry have linked their trees to their DNA. If it says 'no tree', always click on their profile to check that they don't have an unattached one.
Gadget
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Thanks again for all the replies.
My mother has sent a message to the match so hopefully she'll get back to us soon. However her tree on Ancestry only has her descendants and I think she herself is 88, born in 1930. (my Mum is 76). I have managed to construct a tree with what I hope is the right person. I've gone back to her great grandparents on her paternal side, however her mother's maiden name is Smith which is proving problematic, I'll have to get some certificates to prove it, so I need to wait for any contact with her before I do that.
We have got some rumours with regards to my unknown grandfather. My mum's older brother has some memories of that time but knew nothing of the secret. My mother's cousins did know the secret and has some memories. At the time of my mother's conception my nan was staying with friends in Nook, Wiltshire. They were from Portsmouth, so were avoiding the bombing. Nook has an army camp, which still exists to this day, but I have been unable to find out anything relevant as to who was based there in January 1941 which is when my mum was conceived. My uncle remembers by nan being particularly friendly with who he thinks might have been an Australian nicknamed Red, no proper name. He also seems to think that this gentleman may have died as a prisoner of war in a camp in the Far East. Bearing in mind that he would have been only 4-5 I'm not sure how accurate this could be. My mum's cousin also knew about this family secret, she overheard my nan telling her mum about it. She initially thought that the man was American, but as they hadn't entered the war by then it was more likely that he was Canadian.
This is all we have to go on I'm afraid, just rumour and conjecture which is why I'm really hoping that DNA is the answer.
Cheers,
Mark.
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Mark, With that information you would ordinarily have a chance of getting somewhere, but with the war years there was a lot of mobility from within this country and from other countries, as you know.
I usually discount my American matches as being highly unlikely, but you can't.
I really hope this match replies to you, which country does she come from? If the lady is 88 she may or may not want to reply to you. If a younger person is managing her DNA or helping her with it, you may have better luck - sufficiently distant to be interested rather than scandalised.
You could also try uploading to other sites - Gedmatch, my heritage, FTDNA etc to see if more closish matches turn up.
If you're not sure how to do it, here's a tutorial.
https://dna-explained.com/2018/08/28/family-tree-dna-step-by-step-guide-how-to-upload-download-dna-files/
Regards Margaret
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We've also recently narrowed down our search for an unknown grandfather to one of two brothers. The match that helped clinch it is the grandson of his sister.
It's taken almost three years since the DNA results first came back to reach this stage.
I had already identified a small group of people that were fairly close matches that didn't appear to be related via any of the known lines but they were scattered all over the world, and across the various DNA companies. Some of them did know how they were related to each other and those people were all descended from a man from a town in Ireland. The new matches gt-grandmother has this surname and also was from the same county, and he also matches some of the others.
In terms of working out which brother - my thoughts are that it's probably not the son who was in his mid to late teens and most likely still living with his parents hundreds of miles away, and who appears to have been a hard working honest man.
It's more likely to be his rather good looking fair haired blue eyed older brother who would have been in his twenties and moved around the country a bit. I've found a couple of good photos of him in public records.
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That's interesting, it is working for some people :)
Margaret, I'm hoping that she does reply, but I'm guessing it might be someone running it for her. She is in this country. There are only 11 people in her tree, of which only 2 are named, her deceased husband and a grandson. I think it is possibly the grandson who is running the tree. I've also just uploaded both mine and my mother's data to Gedmatch, fingers crossed.
Regards,
Mark.
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Upload everywhere. MyHeritage and FamilyTreeDNA as well.
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She is in this country.
Regards,
Mark.
Which country? I presume England from your surname interests, but people from many countries use this forum.
If it is England it should make it easier for you to find information :)
Regards Margaret
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I had a match with the son of an adoptee. His father was born in America. I'm in Ireland, they were very surprised to find he had Irish DNA
New records being released soon after we made our match allow them to get his father's birth cert so the mother was known,(also Irish) they also had matches to some of her descendants.
We still don't know who the father is but we did figure out which of my families he is from.
We knew it was my mother's side as he also matched with one of my first cousins and her niece.
We worked through each great grandparent.
Great grandfather number one had no sibling and none of his children would have been in America at the time.
His wife had lots of siblings and I had lots of matches from their families but the adoptee's son didn't match with any of them.
Wife of great grandfather number 2 had one sister who had no children
Her husband I can't trace if he had siblings or not but this couple had 2 sons in America in the same town as the child was born.
More matches turning up on more than one site confirmed the match was within this family.
The two men in America are both a good bit older than the mother so the father could be one of them or a younger relative who went to stay with them. We might never know but you never know what might turn up someday perhaps the father had more children and a closer DNA match might turn up.
At least we have narrowed down to a family and the mother is known which is a long way from first discovering you father was adopted only because it was written on a census return.
It can work.
Good luck.
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Will definitely load the DNA to all the other sites as well.
It is good to hear that others are having some success :)
Margaret, yes, sorry I should have specified, it is England. The match is currently in Stevenage, but all her family seems to have originated in Sunderland, except possibly a Smith grandfather who is from Austria!!!!!!!
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Just an update on my ongoing search :)
We've been in contact with the match and it has proved helpful, but unfortunately not provided any definitive answers. However being able to confirm who she is I've been able to construct a tree and I think I have a likely culprit to be my mother's biological father. Unfortunately, he(his name is John William, as is his father's) and his parents have disappeared off the face of the earth, despite having the unusual surname of Outterside. The match's G.Aunt would have married into this family, and she does remember a rumour of the family heading off to Finland, of all places. John William was born in 1906 in Durham, the parents married in 1905, and that's the last I can find of them, despite having all the relevant information, marriage and birth dates etc. I can't find them in the 1911 census, or any passenger lists, or any census information abroad, I've googled them to death, searched any record I can find but no sign of them. It also appears their close family didn't know where they were either as his grandmother died in 1923 and in her Will left her estate to his father (he was an only child) if he could be found!!
Any suggestions for further records would be gratefully received. :)
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I've just found a record for Guardsman J W Outterside, 2nd Bn Coldstream Guards on the British Army Casualty List 1939-45. It lists him as wounded in Italy 13 April 1944. No other info on the listing.
It might be worth following up.
Gadget
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Wow, that was quick, thank you. What site is that on?
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Found it thank you, on FindMyPast. It's amazing isn't it, I thought I had searched everywhere for that name, and yet I still missed it! :-[
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It might be worth putting a request on the Armed Forces board - WW2.
WW2 records are still sparce. Also, have you looked in Scotland. He might have spent his days up there - it's not far from here :)
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Sadly, no deaths showing on SP or on the 1911 in Scotland.
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Found a James William Outterside of the 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guards unfortunately, so doesn't look like he's my John William. Yes, I've tried Scotland, and Ireland, like you I've had no luck.
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Found a James William Outterside of the 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guards unfortunately, so doesn't look like he's my John William. Yes, I've tried Scotland, and Ireland, like you I've had no luck.
Does it give his age/DofB?
I ask that because my great uncle was called John but, on one of his WW1 docs, he was named James. I have the relevant ref nos and they are the same.
Gadget
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It's on the IWM site, he's giving a verbal account of his time in WW2. I think he was born in Hexham 1904 and this recording was from 1990. He was in the Home Guard before joining the army proper.
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Hi all, just a further update on my search. I have managed to trace about five matches from Ancestry to narrow the search down to two sisters, one of whom should prove to be the mother of my unknown Grandfather. One as previously mentioned, Emily Wyatt, born in London in 1884, but moved with her family to Sunderland and married a John William Outterside, and had a son, another John William Outterside in 1906, after this they disappeared off the face of the earth. The other, her sister Jane Ann Wyatt, born in Sunderland in 1889, who has also disappeared, the last recorded sighting was the 1901 census. I've ruled out the other siblings due to location of the families at the beginning of the WW2. I've now also spoken to the close match, my mother's second cousin, plus the descendants of one of the other siblings, who would also be second cousins, and got some interesting family rumours. They both think that Emily, went with her family to Scandinavia, one thought Finland, the other Norway. However it appears that Jane Ann ended up on the Gold Coast in Australia, tying in with my Uncles memories (see earlier in the thread). I have not been able to find anything on Jane Ann Wyatt, not a marriage, not any emigration, not a death, not anything. All the matches that I've traced all come from the Wyatt side of the tree, I have found no matches that come from the Outterside tree.
So I really think that the person I'm looking for is the descendant of Emily Wyatt, and any suggestions of where to go from here would be greatly appreciated, perhaps I should start a new thread?
Here's hoping,
Mark.