RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: IgorStrav on Saturday 08 September 18 13:44 BST (UK)
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I wonder if I can ask probably an idiot question. Which is about what else can I do.
I have a 'difficult' London family history, which has puzzled me over a number of years, and I had some great help with a recent enquiry here.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793394.msg6497835#msg6497835
The difficulty with my researches is because the names are relatively common (and open to mistranscription), secondly because they did not necessarily marry, or necessarily register the birth of their children, being mostly content to have them baptised, and thirdly because they lived in the poverty stricken East End of London and quoted pob either as St George in the East, or in local adjacent areas like Wapping/Limehouse etc.
I have two people I'd like to research further.
1. Mary Ann Williams.
She features on the birth certificate of my grandfather Joseph William Burton, who was born
11/12 1876 in St George in the East.
He was registered as BURDEN, MMN Williams
Joseph William Burden
1877 Jan-Feb-Mar
St George in the East
Volume 1c Page 441
I'm sure that this is him, as his father is Joseph and the family appears in the 1881, where just for a change the family are shown as BARTON.
28 Star St, St George in the East
RG11/455/93 p 8
Joseph Barton 30 Head Marr Dock labourer b St Georges East, Middlesex
Mary A. Barton 31 wife
Joseph Barton 4
Mary A. Barton 13
Elizabeth Barton
However, through further research on subsequent children of Joseph Burton, I've found MMN as Mary Ann BARLOW.
There is a child, ANNA BURTON born 1878, MMN BARLOW, who dies I believe before the 1881;
a son WILLIAM BURTON, born 1882 MMN BARLOW, and the 1911 suggests parents Joseph and Mary Ann "married" in 1880 (can find no marriage ref).
Reg district: Stepney
Reg District No: 20
Sub-reg district: Shadwell and Ratcliff
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Piece: 1542
So this suggests that my grandfather JOSEPH WILLIAM and the other child in the 1881 shown as BURTON, were not the children of Mary Ann Barlow, but of a previous 'wife' Mary Ann Williams.
It's possible that the child Mary Ann, aged 13 in the 1881 (so born c 1868), is the daughter of either Mary Ann Williams, or Mary Ann Barlow (or indeed Joseph Burton/Burden/Barton etc) from a previous relationship, but I've not been able to find her either in an earlier or later census.
But certainly my great grandmother is a MARY ANN WILLIAMS who is possibly born c 1850, and possibly born in St George in the East.
I've not been able to find her in the 1871 (potentially with a small daughter Mary Ann), but of course she may have been living with another man under his name.
Is there anything else I can or should do to try and find her?
2. Sarah Wayling
This is the mother of Joseph Burton Snr and therefore my greatx2 grandmother, as really helpfully established by smudwhisk and other fabulous roots chatters in the other thread I posted (see above).
In search of Sarah Wayling, who was apparently born in Wapping, I've looked on Ancestry (and FamilySearch) for any other "Wayling" family members, brothers or sisters or even potential parents, but haven't had much success.
Would my next step be to try and look at Parish Registers in Wapping? How would I be able to see these?
Any thoughts, please. And thank you - again - for reading.
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Just a thought .....Have you considered that the 2 Mary Anns ARE the same person but that she was born Williams or Barlow, married [or not] a Barlow or Williams & was widowed [or not] then cohabitated with Joseph Burton? It is not unknown for a remarried or cohabiting widow to give variously her maiden name or previous married name as maiden name on a birth certificate.
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Just a thought .....Have you considered that the 2 Mary Anns ARE the same person but that she was born Williams or Barlow, married [or not] a Barlow or Williams & was widowed [or not] then cohabitated with Joseph Burton? It is not unknown for a remarried or cohabiting widow to give variously her maiden name or previous married name as maiden name on a birth certificate.
No I'd not considered that, Josey.....
but the 1911 says that Joseph and Mary Ann were "married in 1880" and had had 4 children in the marriage, 2 of whom were living and 2 died.
Their daughters Charlotte and Elizabeth (Lizzie) were with them in the Census, and William and Alice had died.
I know this doesn't mention the Anna Burton shown above, which (without a birth cert ordered as yet) I have only theorised is their daughter. Perhaps another reason I should get it just to check if she 'belongs' to them.
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added....
It's true I don't seem to have found Mary Ann BARLOW Burton ahead of the 1881 census.
She was apparently born Whitechapel c1852 (from 1901 and 1911 Censuses) or alternatively c1851 London (1891 Census) or c1850 Whitechapel (1881 Census)
Perhaps having a better look for her might be a good idea, Josey, you are right.
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Have you found Joseph Burton (gt.grandfather) on the 1871? I can’t find him.
IF Mary Ann Barlow was his second wife, how do you know his first wife was also called Mary?
ADDED Because you have Joseph's birth certificate. Sorry, should have read your thread properly.
ADDED Have you ruled this death out?
Mary Ann Burton
Born 1851 Died 01/1880
St. George in the East
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Maybe a possible for Joseph’s sister.
Mary Ann Williams
Born 1868 St. George in the East
Vol.01C Page 479
No mother’s maiden name
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In search of Sarah Wayling, who was apparently born in Wapping, I've looked on Ancestry (and FamilySearch) for any other "Wayling" family members, brothers or sisters or even potential parents, but haven't had much success.
Would my next step be to try and look at Parish Registers in Wapping? How would I be able to see these?
Wapping Parish Registers are viewable on Ancestry. How good the indexing is though is a mute point. The fact that these were very large parishes covering fairly small areas of London means while she may believe she was born in Wapping, she could have been born or just baptised elsewhere or moved into the area as a child and knew nothing else. Its also possible she could have been baptised non-conformist as there were several chapels in the various parishes in that area and some of my ancestors kept swapping between non-conformist chapels and CofE churches for baptisms and burials. I suspect you need to look at a wider area of the East End for the family if there is no sign of them in Wapping or even the neighbouring parishes.
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You’re right about this being tricky with the common names.
I’m not so sure about the Mary Ann Williams birth I mentioned earlier.
I think that one’s more likely to be the Mary Ann born in the workhouse to mother Elizabeth, who gives her year of birth as 1846.
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Have you found Joseph Burton (gt.grandfather) on the 1871? I can’t find him.
ADDED Have you ruled this death out?
Mary Ann Burton
Born 1851 Died 01/1880
St. George in the East
I think this may be Mary Ann Williams Burton's death cert - and I need to get it. Especially as there is the Anna Burton MMN Barlow birth born 1878.
No, don't have any of them in the 1871.
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This looks like little Anna.
Anna Burton died 1879 December quarter
St. George in the East
Less than a year old
There are so many Williamses!
I’ve found this one, who may or may not be connected.
Mary Ann Williams
Born 1870 St.George in the East
Mother’s maiden name Barlow
Baptism May 1871 St. George in the East
Mary Ann Williams parents Samuel and Mary Ann Williams - a shoe maker
Address looks like Bells Place
There’s no Bells Place on the 1871 census, but there is a Samuel Williams - shoe maker - married - aged 40 living at Pell Road
Unfortunately, although he claims to be married, he is living as a lodger without his family. I can’t see the Mary Anns anywhere.
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There are so many Williamses!
I’ve found this one, who may or may not be connected.
Mary Ann Williams
Born 1870 St.George in the East
Mother’s maiden name Barlow
Baptism May 1871 St. George in the East
Mary Ann Williams parents Samuel and Mary Ann Williams - a shoe maker
Address looks like Bells Place
There’s no Bells Place on the 1871 census, but there is a Samuel Williams - shoe maker - married - aged 40 living at Pell Road
Unfortunately, although he claims to be married, he is living as a lodger without his family. I can’t see the Mary Anns anywhere.
Thanks for this Mary Ann Williams 1870 birth. I had also been looking (as I said initially) for the Mary Ann BURTON (transcribed as Barton) in the 1881 with the family, as I thought she could be the illegitimate daughter of Mary Ann Williams, mother of my grandfather Joseph William. She's shown as 13 in the 1881, but her dob could be 1870....
Aside from the Anna Burton birth and death certs, and the Mary Ann Burton death cert highlighted here, I should get this 1870 Mary Ann Williams birth certificate.
Because maybe Josey is right and the Willliams/Barlow discrepancy is a red herring and they're the same Mary Ann.
She was originally Barlow, 'married' and had a child with a Williams, and then 'married' Joseph Burton and continued her family with him.
Thank you very much for the suggestions, gives me a further avenue to explore!
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I suggest you get the Mary Ann Burton death certificate first. If it looks to be the original wife, then the 1870 Mary Ann Williams/Barlow can’t be yours.
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I suggest you get the Mary Ann Burton death certificate first. If it looks to be the original wife, then the 1870 Mary Ann Williams/Barlow can’t be yours.
You're right, the death cert is the first one to get.
Thanks for looking at it all, the common names have driven me to desperation!! ;D
If I may, I'll keep you updated as I think I may continue to need your expert fresh eyes....
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28 Star St, St George in the East
RG11/455/93 p 8
Joseph Barton 30 Head Marr Dock labourer b St Georges East, Middlesex
Mary A. Barton 31 wife
Joseph Barton 4
Mary A. Barton 13
Elizabeth Barton
It's all a bit complicated for me. I just noticed that on the next census page at 34 Star Street is Elizabeth Barlow, 53, born Yorkshire, and daughter Anne, 16, a Custard Maker
Going back to 1871 in St George in the East
40 Hungerford St
Elizabeth Barlow Widow 43
John Barlow 11
Ann Barlow 5
Mary Ann Barlow 2
Says all born St George in the East
The only Mary Ann Barlow registered in east London a year either side of 1869 is
June 1868 St George in the East 1c 410
Barlow, Mary Ann
mother Williams
Doesn't make much sense like that, just seems a strange coincidence.
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the common names have driven me to desperation!! ;D
Tell me about it - see the Williams in my surname interests ;). I even have a Mary Williams too - not even a middle name to help! Also from St George in the East/Chelsea/Marylebone.
Still following the thread although I have not had time to do any further research j.ust yet
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Doesn't make much sense like that, just seems a strange coincidence.
1891
12 Hungerford St
Joseph Burton age 31(I think an error, wife shown as 40)
Birth c 1860 London
Class RG 12
Piece 286
Folio 27
Page 7
With wife Mary, and children Eliza, Charlotte, William, Alice and Joseph all the right sort of age.
There is a (very brief!) settlement record for an Elizabeth Barlow in St George in the East (LMA ref STBG/SG/94/16)
26.6.90
Barlow Elizabeth 67
12 Hungerford St 1 wk
34 Star Street 14 yrs
Was in and out of the workhouse. The June admission seems to say from 12 Star Street! Which was correct?
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Thank you jonw65 for the two posts, which I am still trying to get my head round.....
The 1891 Census you have found is indeed my family.
I think I will have to grit my teeth and buy some of these certs, if only to rule some of the people out.
Star Street and Hungerford Street do recur in my family history. Very very poor bit of the East End.
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the common names have driven me to desperation!! ;D
Tell me about it - see the Williams in my surname interests ;). I even have a Mary Williams too - not even a middle name to help! Also from St George in the East/Chelsea/Marylebone.
Still following the thread although I have not had time to do any further research j.ust yet
Josey, you have a Mary Williams who gives St George in the East AND Chelsea AND Marylebone as places of birth on various censuses? Something very wrong there, they are very far apart and have no connection as areas....you're sure it really is the same Mary Williams?
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you have a Mary Williams who gives St George in the East AND Chelsea AND Marylebone as places of birth on various censuses? ..you're sure it really is the same Mary Williams?
I gave the wrong impression - it was different members of the Williams family who were born/lived in these areas; I have certificates, addresses from them & censuses & workhouse admissions and am sure of my facts. And actually I made a mistake with St George in the East :-[ :-[ - that is another family. The only thing yet to find is the fate of my Mary Willams [daughter of William Williams & Johanna nee Frawley both from Ireland born 1840/41 in St Luke's Chelsea] after the death of both her parents in 1855.
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Another coincidence(?) or two re those Barlows in Star Street!
In the 1891 census a likely looking Elizabeth Barlow (Bartow on ancestry), 68, is in St George in the East, living with her 25 year old married daughter, recorded as Hannah, wife of James Marlin or Martin. Piece 286 folio 17 page 34.
But the marriage for those two seems to be at St Philip Stepney, 14 April 1884
James Marling + Annie Robertson
Because their first daughter Annie Alice (born 30 June 1884) has mother's maiden name Barlow, but the later ones have Robertson!
And guess who were the witnesses at that 1884 marriage? Joseph Burton and Mary Ann Burton!
At least these people must have known each other!
Baptism of the Marling's son James George at St George in the East, 9 May 1886, the abode was 30 Star St, Commercial Road. Which was the same as on Charlotte Burton's a year later. Did they ever all live at number 30 at the same time?
That first child Annie Alice seems to be with her Marling grandmother in 1891, and is back with parents in 1901.
John
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Another coincidence(?) or two re those Barlows in Star Street!
In the 1891 census a likely looking Elizabeth Barlow (Bartow on ancestry), 68, is in St George in the East, living with her 25 year old married daughter, recorded as Hannah, wife of James Marlin or Martin. Piece 286 folio 17 page 34.
But the marriage for those two seems to be at St Philip Stepney, 14 April 1884
James Marling + Annie Robertson
Because their first daughter Annie Alice (born 30 June 1884) has mother's maiden name Barlow, but the later ones have Robertson!
And guess who were the witnesses at that 1884 marriage? Joseph Burton and Mary Ann Burton!
At least these people must have known each other!
Baptism of the Marling's son James George at St George in the East, 9 May 1886, the abode was 30 Star St, Commercial Road. Which was the same as on Charlotte Burton's a year later. Did they ever all live at number 30 at the same time?
That first child Annie Alice seems to be with her Marling grandmother in 1891, and is back with parents in 1901.
John
Wow!
I will have a good look at all these Barlow references - need to write it all down first to get it straight.
Will certainly look at the marriage cert with Joseph and Mary Ann Burton!
Added: Just looked at the witness entries on the marriage cert - see neither Joseph nor Mary Ann could sign. This actually matches the fact that the 1911 has someone signing on his behalf.
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you have a Mary Williams who gives St George in the East AND Chelsea AND Marylebone as places of birth on various censuses? ..you're sure it really is the same Mary Williams?
I gave the wrong impression - it was different members of the Williams family who were born/lived in these areas; I have certificates, addresses from them & censuses & workhouse admissions and am sure of my facts. And actually I made a mistake with St George in the East :-[ :-[ - that is another family. The only thing yet to find is the fate of my Mary Willams [daughter of William Williams & Johanna nee Frawley both from Ireland born 1840/41 in St Luke's Chelsea] after the death of both her parents in 1855.
I thought that might be the case, Josey, that they were different Williamses in different London locations.
It's very frustrating that there aren't always marriages, or birth registrations (co-habiting, and christenings instead) to give better clues. I wish you every luck - thanks for looking at my Williams whilst suffering with your own! ;) :)
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Added:
Have ordered PDF certs for Mary Ann Burton death in 1880
Anna Burton MMN Barlow birth in 1878
and will keep you posted when they arrive.
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2. Sarah Wayling
In search of Sarah Wayling, who was apparently born in Wapping, I've looked on Ancestry (and FamilySearch) for any other "Wayling" family members, brothers or sisters or even potential parents, but haven't had much success.
There are two burials in Wapping:
21 Aug 1836 James Wayling aged 54 years from Maidenhead Court, Wapping
16 Aug 1840 Mary Wayling aged 70 years
Can't see any other Waylings or variants in the parish at any point around that time period. I suspect Sarah may not have actually been from there but thought perhaps she was. Whether those two are related is a moot point due to the ages, but one or other may be incorrect.
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2. Sarah Wayling
In search of Sarah Wayling, who was apparently born in Wapping, I've looked on Ancestry (and FamilySearch) for any other "Wayling" family members, brothers or sisters or even potential parents, but haven't had much success.
There are two burials in Wapping:
21 Aug 1836 James Wayling aged 54 years from Maidenhead Court, Wapping
16 Aug 1840 Mary Wayling aged 70 years
Can't see any other Waylings or variants in the parish at any point around that time period. I suspect Sarah may not have actually been from there but thought perhaps she was. Whether those two are related is a moot point due to the ages, but one or other may be incorrect.
Thank you very much for these smudwhisk.
Given my Sarah Wayling was born c 1818/1819, then James might possibly have been her father (aged c 36 at her birth) and Mary could possibly have been her grandmother (aged 48 at her birth).
No sign of mother or grandfather in Wapping though, it seems.
1881 Surname distribution suggests most common in Essex. But whether that is where the family came from is still a question......
I appreciate that Sarah may have been brought up in Wapping, but born elsewhere, as I've got other families who moved into London for work. And Wapping may well have been a destination for those who lived by the sea elsewhere.
Will continue looking! Thanks again for your thoughts and help ;D
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It might be worth getting Mary Wayling's death certificate to see if it gives any clues to her identity and possibly who the informant may be. Unlike some on the page, she's not listed as dying in the Workhouse but just the parish of Wapping St John. Its also possible that her age may be wrong and she could perhaps be James' wife. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
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Thanks to everyone who looked earlier.
The Mary Ann Williams saga - the plot thickens.
I have received the death cert of the Mary Ann Burton death in 1880 and it is not the right one. Wife of a William Burton.
I also applied for the 1878 birth certificate of Anna Burton, who was shown on the GRO as MMN Barlow.
And she IS the daughter of Joseph Burton, labourer, and Mary Ann Burton formerly Barlow, of 28 Star Street.
So I am beginning to think that the previous suggestion is right - that Mary Ann WILLIAMS (shown as mother of my grandfather Joseph William Burton on his 1876 birth cert) may actually be the same person as Mary Ann BARLOW.
And I need to have a good look at the very local Barlow family kindly found by jonw65. I haven't yet had the time to sit down and get my head round it all.
Any thoughts as to why in the 1911 Joseph and Mary Ann said they'd been married 31 years (so 1880), with 4 children, 2 living/2 died, which wouldn't have included young Anna, or my grandfather born 1876?
Answering my own question, I wonder if Mary Ann was born Barlow, married a Williams, and then lived with Joseph Burton, and that her Williams husband didn't die till 1880?
Given I can't find any marriage for them, they're scarcely avoiding bigamy, are they!
Added: hadn't realised I'd also got the birth certificate for Mary Ann BARLOW born 1868 St Georges.
We had theorised that she might be the Mary Ann BURTON aged 13 who appears with Joseph Snr, wife Mary Ann, Joseph Jnr, and Elizabeth in the 1881 at 28 Star Street.
The certificate says she is the daughter of George Milton Barlow, and Mary Ann Barlow formerly Williams of 3 Princes Square. George Milton Barlow's occupation is 'Cook at the Sailor's House'
Now totally confused in the Barlow Williams saga.......
Ignore that last section. I think George Milton Barlow is a completely different family. Just coincidence re the Barlow/Williams names.
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Hi
Sorry about the mixed results with the certificates. There could perhaps be some missing births as I have been unable to find one for Ann(ie) Barlow/Robertson even though she seems to still be alive in 1939 (with a date of birth that would fit for her)
Looking at 1911, it is the first thing that struck me as well, the years married and children not seeming to include Joseph. Sometimes we have seen couples push their number of years married back a bit and here is the opposite! Mind you, we haven't got a marriage!
It seems to be in keeping with everything else, it doesn't make much sense. Especially now you have Anna's birth certificate.
John
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Mind you, we haven't got a marriage!
Thinking about it again, I think that may be the reason. Elizabeth (Lizzie) is still with Joseph and Mary in 1911, age 30. So they have said they have been married 31 years. For respectability's sake. If Joseph had been there, they may have said 35!
Bit tough on Joseph though, not including him (or Anna) in the totals. It does rather look now as though the same Mary Ann was the mother of all of the children.
Do you know when Mary Ann died?
John
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Mind you, we haven't got a marriage!
Thinking about it again, I think that may be the reason. Elizabeth (Lizzie) is still with Joseph and Mary in 1911, age 30. So they have said they have been married 31 years. For respectability's sake. If Joseph had been there, they may have said 35!
Bit tough on Joseph though, not including him (or Anna) in the totals. It does rather look now as though the same Mary Ann was the mother of all of the children.
Do you know when Mary Ann died?
John
Maybe you're right, John.
Mary Ann's death may be
Sep 1920 Poplar Vol 1c Pg 357
But I don't have the cert. May get it now she's suddenly likely to be my Great grandmother!!
By the way, did you notice that Annie Alice Marling's son William is registered as MARLIN MMN
ROBINSON (not Robertson)
aaaaargh
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Now trying to connect the Barlow family who lived close by to Mary Ann Barlow Burton, who must at one point have also had a WILLIAMS connection, as that was the MMN on my grandfather's birth certificate.
Any thoughts welcomed, as I am now going round and round in circles.
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It might be worth getting Mary Wayling's death certificate to see if it gives any clues to her identity and possibly who the informant may be. Unlike some on the page, she's not listed as dying in the Workhouse but just the parish of Wapping St John. Its also possible that her age may be wrong and she could perhaps be James' wife. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
Just to update this (if you can bear to keep suffering it with me ;)),
the death cert of Mary Wayling actually does show her as a widow, (no reference to husband's name), dying aged 70 of ascitis (which is liver disease and extremely unpleasant) in Wapping Workhouse. Informant was a Nurse in the Workhouse.
So unfortunately no address or other clue to help.
I also ordered a birth cert for a Henry Wayling, born 1st December 1838 in Whitechapel, in case that would give me any further family help. But he was the illegitimate son of an Elizabeth Wayling, and born in Whitechapel Workhouse.
There are a couple of Wayling families in and around the area - I will continue to see if I can track them in any way, especially if there are post 1837 registration events I can look at.
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I just wanted to update you all after such sterling help with my problematic Burton/Barlow/Williams family in the poorest part of East London in the 19th Century.
I finally decided to buy the PDF of a birth for a Mary Ann Williams in 1870 just as a punt.
I thought that she might be the Mary Ann Barton (aged 13) who appears in the 1881 census with my Burton family (shown as Barton), given that my own Grandfather's birth certificate in 1876 shows his MMN as Williams, (the other children in the family have Barlow).
And lo and behold, it is the right one! ;D ;D ;D
Mary Ann Williams, daughter of William Williams (Bricklayers Labourer), mother Mary Ann Williams formerly Barlow, born 13/10/1870, and registered in November 1870.
I have tried to find the family at their noted address at 2 Jane Street, Saint Paul, St George in the East in the 1871 - only a few months later - but they are not there, so I am going to go through the whole of the area from the images.
So far I've not found a death for William Williams, or pinned down possibles for him in an earlier census because of course I only have his name, not his age or place of birth - Mary Ann Barlow was born in c1852 in Whitechapel so he is probably though not necessarily of a similar age from a similar location.
And having decided from the help earlier that Mary Ann Barlow Williams Burton was my great grandmother, I got her 1920 death certificate, from which I discovered she died of a tubercular knee, which became gangrenous. And that really tells you how difficult life was and how lucky I am to actually even be here.
Still no further with the mysterious local Barlows found by jonw65.
But I thought you might like to see your help has brought some success and confirmed my great grandmother for me. Thank you all again. ;D