RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: dtcoulson on Sunday 09 September 18 04:13 BST (UK)

Title: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Sunday 09 September 18 04:13 BST (UK)
Hi people,

this thread grows out of some research done in a previous thread under my name on this topic.
I will link back to it in a moment when I can get hold of the link.

So my great grandfather lived in High House with his children circa 1920.
I think I once saw a notification that it is listed as a heritage site.
Aerial photography and comparison with old maps shows that the house is the same shape and size as it was a hundred years ago, when my family were there. It has a large section that looks as though it once had a barn or stables on it.

The house is on Monkton Lane opposite a new road called Cheviot Rd, a few kilometres from Hebburn. Be warned that Monkton Lane is a curious street broken in about three places, so it may be hard to locate the house if you are using Google Maps.

I am interested in knowing a bit more about the house; ownership, tenancy, especially if it is close to the time that my Coulson ancestors were there, circa 1920.



-Thanks
David C



Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Sunday 09 September 18 04:19 BST (UK)
The previous discussion was in here.
Relevant part is on page 7 - ish.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799848.msg6575730#msg6575730

Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 09 September 18 04:20 BST (UK)
David, I don't know if it will help, but can you provide the names of the people who were living there please (assuming they are deceased and you are willing to give their names)?

It may already have been mentioned on your other thread, but how do you know they were there in the 20s?  :)
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Sunday 09 September 18 05:41 BST (UK)
My ancestors for this period in time were ..

* William Sanderson Coulson (1864-1922)
* wife Jane (nee Sewell) (1864-1949)
* Daughter Mary Ann (Minnie) born 1889
* Son Freddy born 1895
* Son Harry born 1905
* Daughter May born 1908
Possibly still staying there in the early days
* Daughter Lily born 1901 (spelling varies)
* Daughter Jane Sewell Coulson born 1898 (Janny and later Jean)
* Son Thomas Smith Coulson (more on him below)

Indications that they lived at High House circa 1920
* My deceased uncle makes this claim in notes he put together in the 1990s. Whether he got this from his parents or through genealogical research is unknown.
* High House is given as a residence for Mary Ann when she marries in 1920.

My uncle (Eric, son of Thomas Smith Coulson) claims he was born in a different address (Till St) in 1921, a house in Hebburn owned by his mother's father. Therefore my grandfather Thomas Smith Coulson had moved there by that date. My grandparents married in Aug 1919 and it is possible that they moved into Till St immediately though this is just conjecture.

A chill has just run down my spine as i review what i have just written because it places confidence in what my uncle has written, when in fact his only evidence may be Minnie's wedding cert.

Could it be that Minnie was a domestic servant in this house at the time and called it her home?
In that case William and his other children could have been anywhere.. 

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Sunday 09 September 18 08:31 BST (UK)
High House street view https://goo.gl/maps/opxmWxQw8et
3D view https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.9653828,-1.500492,127a,35y,262.08h,45t/data=!3m1!1e3

This is the Post Code NE32 5NP to enter into maps.
Stan
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Sunday 09 September 18 10:29 BST (UK)
Here are some documents that could verify that the Coulsons stayed in this house and help specify the years they were there:

* Marriage cert for Joseph Coulson, I think 1917 from memory. Joseph is the son of William.
* Marriage cert for Thomas Smith Coulson from 1919.
* Birth certs for the children of Joseph Coulson & of Minnie Coulson (I have names and dates)
It seems to me that if the house is big, some of the married children might have stayed with the father, assuming everybody got along.
* Passenger list for Harry Coulson in 1927 migrating to NZ. His last residence would be written.
* Death cert for William Coulson 1922

Lily and Jane both married in the 1940s, probably in London.
May married away from home, in Gloucestershire.


Stan, those 3D images are awesome, really bring the territory to life.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 09 September 18 11:06 BST (UK)
Thanks for the additional information David. I hope it helps. :)
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Sunday 09 September 18 12:00 BST (UK)
Harry Coulson left England in 1927. His last address in the UK was ....

....54 Jutland Ave, Hebburn.

I see from NLS that this street did not exist in 1914.
It occupies what was then an empty space just next to the new town.

His brother, Thomas Smith Coulson, left UK in 1924 from ...

... 66 Campbell Street.

Not sure where this is. Could this be Campbell Park Rd?

There is no way to tell whether the family stayed as a unit and moved to both or either of these later addresses or whether the family fragmented and the boys went boarding.

It demonstrates once again that the Coulsons moved around a lot!

The boys probably needed to be in town close to where they worked.

If the girls went into domestic service (as family folklore says), and their father died in 1922, and the boys moved to houses in town to be close to work, then there really is noone left to take care of the property at Monkton. It makes a good case for the family's stay in Monkton terminating soon after the death of the father.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Sunday 09 September 18 12:25 BST (UK)
While digging through my downloaded files, I came across an archaeological survey of Monkton written in 2009 that I had downloaded and later forgotten I had.

I will attach three images for your reference:

01 - title page so that anyone who's interested can trace the report back to its source. This is a very thorough examination of the history of Monkton that goes back to the time of Bede. This far exceeds my own interest in the town but others interested in Monkton would probably find this report very useful.

02 - paragraph from page 14 that describes the residents of Monkton circa 1925.
It refers to Kellys 1925 directory.

03 - One of two parts where High House is mentioned. Here it is described as a grade 2 'listed' building. (The other part is n the appendix where an HER code is attached to the house as well as map references).

** Can someone help me to find and get into the 1925 Kellys directory for this part of the country? It might mention the Coulson family by name.


Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Sunday 09 September 18 13:59 BST (UK)
Here are the attachments
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Sunday 09 September 18 14:04 BST (UK)
High House is not a listed building according to https://www.historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/map-search?postcode=NE32%205NP&clearresults=True
There are seven listed buildings in Monkton Village.
Stan
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Sunday 09 September 18 14:26 BST (UK)
Just to say the original report Strickland, J., (2009). Land to the east of Barns Close, Monkton, South Tyneside. North Pennines Archaeology Ltd. can be seen at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mog/

Stan
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Sunday 09 September 18 15:28 BST (UK)
Cheers, Stan.

I just came across a document on the Monkton Village Association website about the conservation area set up to protect the special character of the town. It describes a number of houses i the conservation area and mentions High House twice, both times saying it is excluded from the conservation area.  (!)

Short of talking to your regional council about ownership records, which I think is a step too tedious, I think this is about all I will get on this search, so I will call it a day unless something else pops up.

Monkton looks like a charming place to live.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Sunday 09 September 18 15:32 BST (UK)
... ah yes, I see that I misread the paragraph about 'listing'. High House is on a local list, separate from the first six.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 09 September 18 23:03 BST (UK)
David, I have had another look at your reasons for believing your family lived at High House. You may be right saying that Minnie was in service there rather than the whole family living there. It is impossible to speculate whether she would give her place of employment as her address, but she may have done if she lived in.

I don't think there are any voter lists for this time otherwise that might have been a way to trace their movements.

I still think that trying to find house deeds or records of ownership might be the way to go. I'm afraid I don't know how to go about that though. Possibly first port of call may be local council or archives? They may be able to point you in the right direction at least. I may be wrong but I vaguely remember reading that there is a cost involved for this kind of search ....

Other than that, your "list of documents" which may prove the family lived at High House, is worth pursuing depending on how determined you are.  :)
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Monday 10 September 18 03:52 BST (UK)
I am going to get marriage certs for Joseph (1917) and Thomas (1919) and see what residences they produce. This is the familiar thing to do and has known costs and is likely to reveal other interesting things along the way.

If I had confidence the family bought the country house then I would be more open to the research route you described. But I am pretty confident this was a rental that lasted a short period of time, if it happened at all. It is rather hard to shoe-horn my working class family into a country home when the rest of my data wants to keep them in crowded little homes in Hebburn.

I re-read my uncle's notes overnight and see that he has not found a number of BMD facts that today could easily be obtained online, which tells me that he did not write to GRO.  This leads me to think that his mention of High House comes not from Mary's wedding cert but from some other source.

So... back and forth on the reasoning. I could continue speculating further but the thing to do is gather more data. Hence GRO.

-DC



Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 10 September 18 03:58 BST (UK)
I agree that chasing up some certificates is the best next move.  :)
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Monday 10 September 18 12:33 BST (UK)
I just bought five of the items on my list of indicative records, from GRO.
This will take about seven weeks to arrive (it always does).
So if you see this thread suddenly spring back to life at the end of October
then you know I've found something interesting.
Meantime, thanks all.
I'll consider this topic finished.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 10 September 18 12:44 BST (UK)
I hope the documents provide some new and interesting information. Fingers crossed.  :)
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Tuesday 11 September 18 16:07 BST (UK)
Hello Hello Hello,

I really need your help with something!

Today I remembered about a War Memorial on which my grandfather's name is etched in the top right corner. I have a photograph of the memorial taken by an aunt who visited England back in the 1980s.

The note at the bottom of the picture says that the memorial is in Monkton Village.
I have Googled Monkton War Memorial and verified that there is a memorial there and it looks rather like the one in my Aunty's photo but I can't be 100 percent sure.

Can anyone get an inscription for this monument?

I have Googled it years ago and know that I got an inscription off it at the time but I have no idea what has become of that download, and now need to get it off the internet again. As I recall, the memorial honours the young men from (the region) who served in the war, whether they survived or perished. That is why my grandfather's name is there despite him living on for many decades.

When I first Googled this memorial, several years ago, I had the wrong impression that Monkton and Hebburn were simply overlapping suburbs of the same city and paid no attention to whether the statue was in Monkton or Hebburn and whether it listed the names from either community or both. It was all the same to me at the time. Now I am interested in seeing whether  his name is on a memorial in Hebburn or in Monkton.


I will continue to Google this target on my own but I sure hope there is someone out there who knows Monkton well and can get me a transcript of the inscription, or a photo of it.

Cheers
-David C
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 11 September 18 16:12 BST (UK)
For an enquiry of this kind your first port of call should be the North East War memorial project  :)

here is the memorial you refer to complete with full transcript http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=8005
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Tuesday 11 September 18 16:20 BST (UK)
Bingo

I knew somebody would get it sooner than me.
Well done and thank you very much.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 11 September 18 16:34 BST (UK)
Photo and location map https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1574609
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Tuesday 11 September 18 16:38 BST (UK)
Google Street View https://goo.gl/maps/GjrcQ26pQez

Stan
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Tuesday 11 September 18 16:50 BST (UK)
Also for those who have been following this inquiry:

I decided to review my uncle's notes to see if I could work out where he got his information from and see how reliable his claim was that the family lived in Monkton.

It's funny when you read something with a specific purpose in mind that is different from the last sixteen times you read it, you instantly see things you brushed over before.

It was clear from the details he was listing about his father and his grandfather that my uncle was quoting details off of his father's marriage certificate, which he must have ordered back in the 1990s.

The marriage took place in Aug 1919.
The groom, TS Coulson was described as "of Monkton".
His father's occupation was "farm labourer".

Since my uncle never researched the life of his father's sister,
he could not have obtained the name "High House Monkton" from
the sister's marriage cert in June 1920, as I did. 
He must have read it as the groom's address on his father's marriage cert.

Looks pretty good to me that the family really were in Monkton, in High House.

Thanks again
-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Tuesday 11 September 18 17:13 BST (UK)
In the 1911 census there is a schedule for High House Cottage, after the schedule for High House. The daughter of the occupant of High House Cottage was a  Domestic General Servant, probably for High House. Was TS Coulson living in the Cottage, rather than High House itself?
You can see High House Cottage on the map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/432500/563500/13/101329

Stan
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: JayG on Tuesday 11 September 18 18:59 BST (UK)
I can't see that anyone has looked at the Electoral Rolls on FindMyPast on this or the other thread.

There's various Coulson's on the ER's for 1918, 1920 to 1922, unfortunately there is no actual address only 'Monkton'.

1923 is the first year I can find where 'High House' is listed as an address rather than just Monkton.

ER Spring & Autumn 1923
High House, Monkton
George E & Maggie D Turner

ER Autumn 1924
High House, Monkton
Francis R & Hilda Robertson

There's no Coulson's at Monkton after 1922 which I noticed is the year William died so that could be significant. Did widowed Jane have to sell High House or did she have to give up here tenancy?

Jane, along with Henry and Frederick are listed on the ER at 54 Jutland Avenue, Hebburn New Town, Spring 1923.  There's several other Coulson's listed at 7 Station Road, 29 Aln Street and 66 Campbell Street.  I can post up the details if you can't access these yourself on FindMyPast.

Cheers
Jay


 
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: JayG on Tuesday 11 September 18 19:21 BST (UK)
Looks like the Coulson's moved to Monkton ca 1915.

ER 1915
Name of elector - William Coulson
Place of abode - Monkton
Nature of qualification - dwelling house (successive)
Description of qualifying property - 3 Hedgeley Road, Hebburn New Town and Monkton

Where the word "successive" appears in the registers it means that the elector had occupied, during the 12 months qualifying period, more than one property within the particular constituency, each of which was of a sufficient rateable value to qualify its occupier to vote.

Link to Stan's thread about ER's

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=593091.msg4435918#msg4435918
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 04:48 BST (UK)
In the 1911 census there is a schedule for High House Cottage, after the schedule for High House. The daughter of the occupant of High House Cottage was a  Domestic General Servant, probably for High House. Was TS Coulson living in the Cottage, rather than High House itself?
You can see High House Cottage on the map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/432500/563500/13/101329

Stan

This is very probable given what I know about the family.
I can see Minnie (daughter) in the role of domestic servant and William (father) as gardener.


Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 04:55 BST (UK)
There's various Coulson's on the ER's for 1918, 1920 to 1922, unfortunately there is no actual address only 'Monkton'.

...

Jane, along with Henry and Frederick are listed on the ER at 54 Jutland Avenue, Hebburn New Town, Spring 1923.  There's several other Coulson's listed at 7 Station Road, 29 Aln Street and 66 Campbell Street.  I can post up the details if you can't access these yourself on FindMyPast.


Welcome to the picture Jay.

Electoral Rolls are my blind spot. I will have to learn how to investigate these.

Your contribution is right on target, more than you may realise:
()
Harry migrated to NZ in 1927. On registering as a passenger,
he gave his final UK address as 54 Jutland Ave.
()
Tommy migrated to NZ in 1924.
His final UK address was 66 Campbell Street.
()

Looks like we have things sewn up very nicely.

-> But can someone show me where Campbell Street was??
I have looked for this before without success.

-DC



Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 04:57 BST (UK)
The Coulsons at Station Rd and Aln St may be cousins.
I should investigate to be sure, as the family is quite large.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 05:00 BST (UK)
Looks like the Coulson's moved to Monkton ca 1915.

ER 1915
Name of elector - William Coulson
Place of abode - Monkton
Nature of qualification - dwelling house (successive)
Description of qualifying property - 3 Hedgeley Road, Hebburn New Town and Monkton

Where the word "successive" appears in the registers it means that the elector had occupied, during the 12 months qualifying period, more than one property within the particular constituency, each of which was of a sufficient rateable value to qualify its occupier to vote.

Link to Stan's thread about ER's

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=593091.msg4435918#msg4435918

So to be absolutely clear on this:
Given that Hedgeley Rd is in HNT and not in Monkton, and that the word 'successive' has been used, we can be sure that the Coulsons moved house in the 12 months leading up to that ER?

BTW, do we know what month the ER in 1915 was taken?

Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 05:29 BST (UK)
Stan, can you give me a screenshot of the High House Cottage as per UKMaps?

Is it the long narrow structure I see on the NLS map of High House that has since disappeared?
I don't have a subscription therefore can't open it to see.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 05:34 BST (UK)
Not being familiar with the Electoral Rolls,
can I ask what people would qualify to appear in it?
Men only? Working men only? Working women?

You say that Jane's name appears so it seems that housewives/dependents can appear on the list?

Could the ER help me to trace three sisters who may have followed their brothers to the houses in Hebburn or who may instead have become domestic servants elsewhere.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 12 September 18 05:40 BST (UK)
Stan, can you give me a screenshot of the High House Cottage as per UKMaps?

Is it the long narrow structure I see on the NLS map of High House that has since disappeared?
I don't have a subscription therefore can't open it to see.

-DC

You need a subscription for old-maps.co.uk, but not for the NLS maps. :)

Jay's link at reply #27 explains who was eligible to vote.
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 05:43 BST (UK)
The move to Monkton seems to coincide closely with the outbreak of war.

I wonder, could his decision have been motivated by a closure or down-scaling of his workplace?
He worked at the Tharsis Sulphur and Copper Plant which I read closed in 1922 but I'm thinking may have had to make massive changes in 1914 as many of its employees would have signed up for military service.

If this is the case, was there in general a great social migration within Hebburn in late 1914 as people moved from house to house?

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 12 September 18 05:55 BST (UK)
Re Campbell Street ... I did a bit of googling and found that Campbell St was at Hebburn Quay. I found this map and wonder if what is now Campbell Park Rd, used to be known as Campbell Street?

It is intersects with Hedgeley Road, but neither of them are on this map as the area was not yet developed:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17&lat=54.9767&lon=-1.5140&layers=168&right=BingHyb

(you can see Hebburn Quay top left of the old map)

A later map:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=54.9759&lon=-1.5119&layers=10&right=BingHyb
(sadly, no street names)  :(
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Wednesday 12 September 18 09:16 BST (UK)
You need a subscription for old-maps.co.uk, but not for the NLS maps. :)
You only need a subscription if you want to see the maximum zoom, otherwise it is free.
Campbell Street https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/430999/565075/13/101329
If you keep zooming out you will get the modern map, and using the four arrows in the top right corner you can go full screen.
Or https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17&lat=54.9798&lon=-1.5169&layers=168&right=BingHyb
Are you sure his final UK address was 66 Campbell Street? as the numbers only go up to 48, as shown on the map.
Stan
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Wednesday 12 September 18 09:50 BST (UK)
Campbell Street Larger scale https://maps.nls.uk/view/120934173#zoom=5&lat=6342&lon=2639&layers=BT

Stan
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: cristeen on Wednesday 12 September 18 10:13 BST (UK)
Looking at the maps in Stan's links, Campbell Street continues in a south westerly direction and the name changes to Campbell Street South on the 1941 1:2500 map. This part of the street is named Campbell Park Road by the 1957 1:1250 map but the numbering seems to have continued from Campbell Street so 66 Campbell Park Road may well have been 66 Campbell Street prior to 1941
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 12 September 18 10:55 BST (UK)
You need a subscription for old-maps.co.uk, but not for the NLS maps. :)
You only need a subscription if you want to see the maximum zoom, otherwise it is free.
Campbell Street https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/430999/565075/13/101329


Of course. I should have been clearer.

Glad to see I was "getting warm" with my suggestion of Campbell Park Road = Campbell Street. I should have looked further north because it is on the NLS map I posted earlier.  :)
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=54.9793&lon=-1.5171&layers=168&right=BingHyb
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Wednesday 12 September 18 11:30 BST (UK)
66 Campbell Park Road may well have been 66 Campbell Street prior to 1941

It would be 66 Campbell Street South

Stan
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 14:48 BST (UK)
I can't see that anyone has looked at the Electoral Rolls on FindMyPast on this or the other thread.

There's various Coulson's on the ER's for 1918, 1920 to 1922, unfortunately there is no actual address only 'Monkton'.

...

Jane, along with Henry and Frederick are listed on the ER at 54 Jutland Avenue, Hebburn New Town, Spring 1923.  There's several other Coulson's listed at 7 Station Road, 29 Aln Street and 66 Campbell Street.  I can post up the details if you can't access these yourself on FindMyPast.

Cheers
Jay


Sorry Jay,

I have just tinkered with the Electoral Roll category in FindMyPast and I can't see any of the records you are speaking of. There must be something I am doing wrong.
I have opened the UK & Wales ER for 1920-1932 but all I see in the index for Fred Coulson are records from 1920.


Some further questions, BTW:
()
I'm still not clear on whether women appear in the ER by the 1920s.
Could I use ER to find Freddy's sisters Lily & Jane, who should be voting age? (Which leads to the next question)
()
I don't see a minimum age for qualification. I see that owning or renting property of a given value or having an annual income equivalent to that amount was necessary for men when the ER was set up in 1884, but would that still apply in the 1920s?
I ask this because Freddy's youngest sister, born 1908, should be too young to appear in ER in 1923 but at some stage in later years would cross the line.
I'd rather like to be able to find where she is when she first appears in the ER.
()


Oh yes, and the details for the other Coulsons you mentioned (see quote) would be worth a look at since I have become quite familiar with the larger Coulson clan in Hebburn. I should be able to spot relatives if these are in the data you collected. 

Thanks
-David C
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 15:10 BST (UK)
Yes, very confident that '66' Campbell St is correct as it appears on Tommy's Passenger List registration 1924 for NZ.

Have seen the discussion that Campbell St turned into Campbell Park Rd.
Question:
In the process of renaming the street in 1941, is it possible that the houses were renumbered?
I'm asking this because I'd like to Google the house from the street.

Thanks
-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Wednesday 12 September 18 15:45 BST (UK)
No the houses have not been renumbered It should be 66 Campbell Street South, which was renamed Campbell Park Road. The 1911 Census goes up to 48 Campbell Street, the house numbers are the same as on the 1957-58 map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/430999/565075/13/101329.
Street View of Number 66 Campbell Park Road https://goo.gl/maps/HiNrL2Fvmx22

Stan
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: JayG on Wednesday 12 September 18 18:13 BST (UK)
There’s two different ER record sets on FindMyPast -

One titled England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932 which isn’t indexed in the usual way as it’s done from OCR from what I understand.  So if you search for William Coulson you might get results where one line has Coulson and the line above or below has William, or where the address is Coulson Terrace.  Sometimes you need to view lots of results to find the right people you are looking for.  The link for this record set is - https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/england-and-wales-electoral-registers-1920-1932

The other titled England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1920-1932 which is fully indexed but currently only covers the years 1920, 1926 – 1931 and partial records for 1932.  The link for this record set is - https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/england-and-wales-electoral-registers-1920-1932

Here's some of the stuff I found yesterday

1915 ER for William Coulson at Monkton

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=BL/ER/D19/FMP000002751/1169&parentid=BL/ER/D19/FMP000002751/1169

Spring 1920 William, Jane and Frederick Coulson at Monkton

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=bl/er/d1/fmp000002174/0313&parentid=bl/er/d1/fmp000002174/0313

Spring 1923 for Jane, Henry and Frederick at 54 Jutland Avenue and the other Coulson's at 7 Station Road, 29 Aln Street and 66 Campbell Street.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=BL/ER/D10/FMP000002756/0242&parentid=BL/ER/D10/FMP000002756/0242

Some of these results won’t relate to your Coulson’s so you’ll have to look at them to see which are relevant.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?datasetname=england+%26+wales%2c+electoral+registers+1832-1932&lastname=coulson&eventyear=1918&eventyear_offset=5&place=monkton&county=durham

Jay
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: JayG on Wednesday 12 September 18 18:45 BST (UK)
From what I've gathered very few women could vote before 1918.  Between 1918 and 1928 only women over 30 who were householders or married to householders could vote.  After 1918 all women over 21 could vote.

Freddy's sister born 1908 would most likely first appear on the ER for 1930.

Jay
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Wednesday 12 September 18 21:18 BST (UK)
Durham Record Office have produced a extensive guide to Electoral Registers, see particularly under 1918-1928

http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/media/16751/Electoral-Registers/pdf/UserGuide06ElectoralRegisters.pdf

Stan
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 22:08 BST (UK)
Thank you for the detailed explanations. That explains everything that I observed yesterday.
I will examine the records straight after this post.

Sounds like going through the OCR version is as much art as it is science.

Interesting how the right for women to vote did not spring suddenly into existence as we might think but was a lumbering process across many years.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 22:11 BST (UK)
From what I've gathered very few women could vote before 1918.  Between 1918 and 1928 only women over 30 who were householders or married to householders could vote.  After 1918 all women over 21 could vote.

Freddy's sister born 1908 would most likely first appear on the ER for 1930.

Jay


Just to be clear, Jay, should your second sentence be 'After 1928...'  ?
Am guessing that is a typo.

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Wednesday 12 September 18 22:22 BST (UK)
Uh oh... Can't view the ER records in FindMyPast without a paid subscription plan.

Is there more to be gleaned than the facts you have given already in your previous posts?

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 12 September 18 23:42 BST (UK)
If voting was not compulsory you may find that many women didn't bother to enrol even if they qualified to do so.
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: JayG on Thursday 13 September 18 07:41 BST (UK)
From what I've gathered very few women could vote before 1918.  Between 1918 and 1928 only women over 30 who were householders or married to householders could vote.  After 1918 all women over 21 could vote.

Freddy's sister born 1908 would most likely first appear on the ER for 1930.

Jay


Just to be clear, Jay, should your second sentence be 'After 1928...'  ?
Am guessing that is a typo.

-DC

Yes sorry that is a typo and should be after 1928.

Jay
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Friday 21 September 18 00:36 BST (UK)
Hi people

I have obtained a new FindMyPast subscription that allows me to view the UK Electoral Rolls.
I a going through these records now.

Can anyone give me translations for the codes that are used in these records?

These are the ones that I have seen.

- O
- R
- HO
- BP
- Rw
- Ow
- Dw


Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 21 September 18 01:31 BST (UK)
- O
- R
- HO
- BP
- Rw
- Ow
- Dw


So far I have found:

O: Occupation qualification
R: Residence qualification
HO: Qualification through husband's occupation
BP: Business premises qualification
RW: Residence qualification (W = women)
OW: Occupation qualification (W = women)

I wonder if all the codes are listed at the front of the book in a similar way that the enumerator's route is at the beginning of the census books?

Added: This seems to cover it all:

http://www.electoralregisters.org.uk/codes.htm
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: dtcoulson on Friday 21 September 18 05:06 BST (UK)
Thank you, Ruskie.

I happened to see those codes on an adjacent page when viewing one ER image.
Your descriptions are confirmed.

A new question emerges with regard to my grandfather who should still have been in France in early 1919 yet appears on two or three forms for 1918 under the classifications R and NM (on different forms).

* Is it at all possible that he could still be in military service in France ad yet appear on this form in 1918? I'm guessing that this is impossible.

* Is it implied by the NM code that he is still in the military (yet living at home)?

* Is it the case that he has already decommissioned and is eligible to vote on the basis of his just-completed military service? In that case why would he appear as R on a different form for the same year when the classification NM is sufficient?

* Does R imply that he has taken over the ownership of the house he is in?

-DC
Title: Re: High House in Monkton, near Hebburn - history of the house & property?
Post by: stanmapstone on Friday 21 September 18 08:29 BST (UK)
These abbreviations have been used during the 20th Century in Electoral Registers
From “The Family Tree Detective” by Colin D. Rogers

§  Not entitled to vote in local (later metropolitan borough, urban district, or parish) elections.
†  Not entitled to vote in county council elections
‡  Not entitled to vote in rural district elections
date given Entitled to vote from that date
a  Absent voter
BP !Bw) Business premises qualification (women)
D (Dw) Spouse's occupation qualification
E not entitled to vote in local or parliamentary elections
F Not entitled to vote in local elections
G Citizen of Europe, entitled to vote in local elections only
HO Husband's occupational qualification
J Juror
JS Special juror (as defined by the Juries Act 1870 ss. 6 and 11 - esquire or above, bankers,
merchants, and anyone owning property of more than a certain value)
K Citizen of Europe, entitled to vote in local and European elections only
L Not entitled to vote in parliamentary elections
M Merchant seaman
N To be included in the next register as a voter
NM Naval or military voter
O (Ow) Occupational qualification (women)
R (Rw) Residential qualification (women)
S Service voter
U Citizen of Europe, entitled to vote in European elections only
x Not entitled to vote in parliamentary elections
Y Entitled to vote in the following year

Stan