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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 11 September 18 07:13 BST (UK)
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Welcome to the new Scavenger Hunt, it's been a while since the last one, but I'm sure the 'Thinking Caps' are well and truly dusted off and ready to go.
This one might be a little bit tricky, but I have every faith you can help Marchbank.
Good Luck and Good Hunting.
Barbara
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Herbert Benjamin WILLIAMS.
Herbert was my great grandfather.
He died in New Zealand 03 Mar 1916, buried Linwood Cemetery.
After marrying my great grandmother Mary Jane LEWIS nee MILLRAY,in Christchurch, New Zealand on 30 Dec 1886. They had nine children born between 1889 - 1906 in Christchurch ( I have most of these details).
Herbert put his age as 43 on his marriage cert, and this ties in with the details on his death cert. This puts his birth at c1843.
According to his death cert he had been in NZ for 51 years, so arrived c1865 ( cannot find this detail)
After this everything is very vague and unsubstantiated.
Also according to his marriage cert and death cert he was born in London. Marriage cert states father was John Herbert WILLIAMS and Sarah EVERETT(probably).
I have a marriage certificate that I have long believed was the right one for a John Herbert WILLIAMS marrying a Sarah EVERETT in Islington, Middlesex 23 Nov 1841. But because I can find nothing else I am wondering if I have been in the "wrong forest" all these years.
Can any one find any little detail to help me prove/disprove this link?
Can anyone find any mention of Herbert's birth or baptism?
Any sign of him on any census 1841- 1861?
Really really looking forward to some suggestions or help. He has baffled me for a very many years.
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Unnamed WILLIAMS male child, mother EVERETT.
WILLIAMS, -
Mother's maiden surname: EVERETT
GRO Reference: 1842 D Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01 Page 205
Debra :)
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Have you accessed the Intention To Marry information in case there's further information to be found there?
Sample of what is found on NZ ones from that era:
http://www.lynly.gen.nz/BDMregisterITMNZ.pdf
NZ board may be helpful - perhaps a look up request for their ITMs .... :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/new-zealand/
JM
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St Marys Islington,
#119
Married after banns,
23 November 1842 oops, edit ;D 1841 :)
John Herbert WILLIAMS of full age, Bachelor, Victualler, of Bunhill Row, son of John WILLIAMS, Artist
And
Sarah EVERETT, Minor, Spinster, (no occupation recorded) of 6 Vittoria Street, daughter of
Benjamin EVERETT, Gardener
Both signed, so too their witnesses
JM
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http://www.maps-of-london.com/map-finsbury-5.jpg
Bunhill Row enquiry : http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=631509.0
:)
JM
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This seems to be the family in 1861 but no Herbert:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mov/
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There were lots of pubs in and around Bunhill Row. There was a John Williams at the Barley Mow in Blue Anchor Alley in 1842 https://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/StLuke/BarleyMow.shtml
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St Marys Islington,
#119
Married after banns,
23 November 1842 oops, edit ;D 1841 :)
John Herbert WILLIAMS of full age, Bachelor, Victualler, of Bunhill Row, son of John WILLIAMS, Artist
And
Sarah EVERETT, Minor, Spinster, (no occupation recorded) of 6 Vittoria Street, daughter of
Benjamin EVERETT, Gardener
Both signed, so too their witnesses
JM
Looks like this might be the same lady -
Sarah EVERETT, bp: 24 Feb 1822 Tolleshunt D'Arcy Essex, dau of Benjamin & Sarah Everett, a Gardener of this parish.
There appears to be a few different Everett families in this parish.
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This seems to be the family in 1861 but no Herbert:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mov/
In the bottom right of this map - if you see the green patch which is St Dunstan's Church, Stepney - Bull Lane is just north of the church with Pedlars Orchard leading off it:
http://london1864.com/stanford33b.htm
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Looks like this might be the same lady -
Sarah EVERETT, bp: 24 Feb 1822 Tolleshunt D'Arcy Essex, dau of Benjamin & Sarah Everett, a Gardener of this parish.
There appears to be a few different Everett families in this parish.
Possible:
Benjamin EVERITT (of Tolleshunt Darcy) married Sarah CURTIS (otp) 09 Nov 1820 at WITHAM ESSEX (by Banns)
Benjamin signed, Sarah made her mark
Witnesses: Samuel Curtis & Sarah Parmenter (both "X")
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Some great clues coming in. Thank you.
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1871 20 Turner Rd MEOT RG10/563 folio 14 pg 20
John H Williams head mar 57 bootmaker b. Kent, Woolwich
Sarah wife 47 b. Essex, Tolson darcy
Georgiana dau 14 b. Stepney
Hannah ? Carter visitor 24 cook b. Bedford
+lodger
So this could be John in 1851
2 Rochester Place, Islington HO107/1501 folio 322 pg 31
John Williams head mar 39 shoemaker b. Kent, Woolwich
James son 7 b. Chelsea
No Sarah & no Herbert Benjamin at home.
:-\
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Good find, Osprey!
I was looking at the other children of John H and Sarah to see if I could find any clues. Think this might be their son Walter Williams marriage (now I can confirm from Osprey's census finds that John was a bootmaker):
St Dunstan Stepney - 13 Sep 1886
Walter Williams 35 Bach Licensed Victualler 69 Devonshire St, John Williams Shoemaker
Ellen Precious 27 Spin - 14 Endsleigh Street, George Precious Carpenter
Witnesses: Frederick Martin / Margaret Clark
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John H in the 1881 census:
1881 1 Gill Street Limehouse RG11/468 Folio 79 Page 1
John H Williams head mar 73 boot and shoemaker b. Kent, Woolwich
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1851 census:
2 Rochester Place, Islington
John Williams 39 married, shoe maker, born Woolwich
James Williams 7 son, born Chelsea
Did "James" become Herbert Benjamin in later life perhaps?
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John H in the 1881 census:
1881 1 Gill Street Limehouse RG11/468 Folio 79 Page 1
John H Williams head mar 73 boot and shoemaker b. Kent, Woolwich
Ah found Sarah on 1881 census - give me a sec...
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1881 35 Glencoe Street Bromley St Leonard RG11/502 Folio 75 Page 15
Frederick Ravish Head Unm 25 Angle Iron Smith Berks Reading
Sarah Williams Housekeeper Mar 59 Housekeeper Essex Maldon
Georgiana Williams Visitor Unm 23 Formally servant Mdx Stepney
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And now we see why Georgiana was visiting in the 1881 census ;D:
1891 381 Manchester Road Poplar RG12/335 Folio 96
Frederick Rovish H M 36 Angle Iron Smith Reading Berks
Georgiana Rovish W M 34 - Stepney London
Frederick W Rovish S - 6 Scholar Bromley London
Albert H Rovish S - 5 Scholar Bromley London
Sarah Williams Mother-in-Law Wid 70 - Maldon Essex
Marriage: Poplar Middlesex 1 May 1881
Frederick Ravish of age bach Smith Poplar Alfred Ravish Pattern Maker
Georgiana Williams of age spin - Poplar John Williams Shoemaker
witnessess: George ? and Elizabeth Pearce
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and just to confirm
WILLIAMS Georgiana 1856 M QTR STEPNEY. 01C 559 MMN EVERETT
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:)
Have we found Bunhill Row or Vittoria Street in the 1841 Census?
:)
JM
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BDM NZ birth
1889/6026 WILLIAMS Herbert Frederick
parents Mary Jane / Herbert Benjamin
1890/11634 WILLIAMS George Ingram
parents Mary Jane / Herbert Benjamin
1892/7422 WILLIAMS James Ernest
parents Mary Jane / Herbert Benjamin
1893/14798 WILLIAMS Jessica Everett
parents Mary Jane / Herbert Benjamin
1895/15395 WILLIAMS Joseph Edward
parents Mary Jane / Herbert Benjamin
1898/3159 WILLIAMS Stanley Arthur
parents Mary Jane / Herbert Benjamin
1899/14657 WILLIAMS Henry Ormandy
parents Mary Jane / Herbert Benjamin
1903/12817 WILLIAMS Hayton Millray
parents Mary Jane / Herbert Benjamin
1906/7999 WILLIAMS Gwendoline Beatrice
parents Mary Jane / Herbert Benjamin
Of the family names here, EVERETT and MILLRAY can be accounted for.
Have you looked for connection to ORMANDY and INGRAM and HAYTON?
Are they from the WILLIAMS family...or the LEWIS MILLRAY family?
What do you know about Mary Jane.......to account for the ORMANDY, INGRAM and HAYTON names?
Herbert Benjamin WILLIAMS has seven sons, each with two given names. Herbert's father is John, and Herbert does not give this name to a son?
What occupation do you have for Herbert Benjamin WILLIAMS?
What church did they marry in (denomination)? Who are the witnesses?
NZ BDM
1878/1640 WILLIAMS Charles married BAGGOTT Sophia Elizabeth
births
1887/19780 WILLIAMS Frank Ingram
parents Sophia / Charles
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Oh WOW people, thank you so much.
The Hayton is a family name from Mary Jane's paternal line.
I have found no link to the LEWIS line for the Ingram or Ormandy, though I admit not a lot of research done there.
Mary Jane was the daughter of Henry MILLRAY and Eliazabeth PARKINSON born 1864 in Keswick, CUL.
Mary Jane MILLRAY married James LEWIS 08 Oct 1883 in Barrow, LAN.
They had 2 daughters Edith Anne b29 May 1884 in Barrow and Sarah Elizabeth b26 May 1885 in Rolleston, CBS, New Zealand. James died 22 Feb 1886 in Christchurch New Zealand.
I believe James was the son of Edward LEWIS and Edith WEAL born 19 Dec 1845 Stokesay, SAL
Herbert Benjamin was a paper runner, agent.
Mary Jane was working in Cust, NYC, New Zealand as a housekeeper before her marriage to Herbert.
They were married in the Registrars Office in Christchurch so no church record as such.
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Mary Jane was working in Cust, NYC, New Zealand
Nothing to do with the problem at hand but - where is Cust, NYC ? is that what it says on the marriage certificate?
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Cust is a little village 30 minutes out of Christchurch, It is in North Canterbuy district.
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:)
Have we found Bunhill Row or Vittoria Street in the 1841 Census?
:)
JM
On an address search on FindMyPast's 1841 Census found Bunhill Row was in the St. Luke district. I searched every entry and no John Williams (senior or junior). Vittoria Street was Islington - again I searched each entry and no Sarah Everett there.
Annettel
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:)
Have we found Bunhill Row or Vittoria Street in the 1841 Census?
:)
JM
Numbers in descending order from No. 72 Bunhill Row start at:
Class: HO107; Piece: 667; Book: 8; Civil Parish: St Luke; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 10; Page: 1; Line: 1
Debra :)
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:) That prompted me to look a tad further, and I have not yet found 'him' in 1841, but I will find spare moments this evening to search further, :)
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:St_Luke_Registration_District%2C_1841_Census_Street_Index_A-B
JM
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regarding Sarah EVERETT in 1841 there are several contenders but this one
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 739
Book number 1
Folio number 5
Page number 3
is in the household of a Richard WILLIAMS age 35 a banker also born out of county.
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Mary Jane was working in Cust, NYC, New Zealand
Nothing to do with the problem at hand but - where is Cust, NYC ? is that what it says on the marriage certificate?
Cust is a little village 30 minutes out of Christchurch, It is in North Canterbuy district.
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cust,_New_Zealand
JM
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1851 census:
2 Rochester Place, Islington
John Williams 39 married, shoe maker, born Woolwich
James Williams 7 son, born Chelsea
Did "James" become Herbert Benjamin in later life perhaps?
I am starting to wonder that as well! This looks like James on the 1861 census:
1861 St Marylebone 12 Molyneux Street RG9/78 Folio 68 Page 54
James Williams Lodger Unm 20 Blacksmith Middlesex Chelsea
+ lots of other lodgers at that address
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And children, so far, of John Herbert and Sarah Williams (nee Everett) as on GRO:
- Williams 1842 Dec Q Marylebone 01 205 mmn Everett
Walter Williams 1851 Dec Q Islington 3 296 mmn Everitt
Thomas Williams 1854 Mar Q Stepney 1C 513 mmn Everett
Georgiana Williams 1856 Mar Q Stepney 1C 559 mmn Everett
William Williams 1859 Dec Q Mile End Old Town 1C 562
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And children, so far, of John Herbert and Sarah Williams (nee Everett) as on GRO:
- Williams 1842 Dec Q Marylebone 01 205 mmn Everett
Walter Williams 1851 Dec Q Islington 3 296 mmn Everitt
That's a big gap between 1842 and 1851
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Sarah Williams (nee Everett) bought a Private Grave in (City of London and) Tower Hamlets Cemetery in 1885 (grave no 8656, square 19) and the following people are buried there:
Sarah Williams 70yrs 23/05/92
Fredk Ravish 1897
Sarah G B Ravish 1888
Lydia Williams 1886
Amy Williams 1892
Frederick Ravish married Sarah’s daughter, Georgiana, and Sarah Georgiana Beatrice Ravish was their daughter.
I have been investigating who Lydia and Amy Williams are and now believe they are the daughters of James Williams:
1881 Kensington 61 Redcliff Road
James E Williams H M 36 Assistant Brokers Bailiff Mdx Kensal Green
Esther Williams W M 31 – Mdx Poplar
Lydia M Williams D U 5 Scholar Sur Balham
(plus other children)
1891 Paddington 69 Clarendon Road
James Williams H M 47 Clerk Lon Holloway
Esther Williams W M 42 – Lon Poplar
Amy Williams D U 5 – Lon Paddington
(plus other children)
James Williams married Esther Hardwick Mar Q 1869 in Poplar, London Vol 1C Page 993 – unfortunately I cannot find the actual marriage record online so cannot confirm for sure that James is the son of John Herbert, but it seems likely.
This would then rule out James as the person who moved to New Zealand and changed his name to Herbert Benjamin!
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James would have to go somewhere in the gap between no name and Walter.
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he was enumerated as aged 7 on the 1851 census with his father.
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This has been amazing. Thank you all so much.
I need to get to my local library on the weekend to get on Ancestry and follow up.
Finding baptisms is going to be very difficult I think as they moved around so much.
Just with the free searches I have been able to use, it looks like the EVERRRETS are going to be hard to find as well.
Please can someone tell me if the Tolleshunt Darcy church records are online?
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Please can someone tell me if the Tolleshunt Darcy church records are online?
Bishops Transcripts 1629 to 1631 and 1800 to 1872 are on Family Search
link to the latter group
https://www.familysearch.org/search/film/004513886?cat=519591
Suspect rest/originals is at Essex Record Office
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I had a thought about those extra surnames in the children, born Christchurch.
Can anyone go to look at the baptism card indexes at Christchurch Library? It is possible the godparents/sponsors are people of those names.
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And another question for you lovely people.
If Sarah EVERRET was born in 1822( which thanks to Mckha489, I have found)
Why is she a minor in 1841?
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Because she is under 21