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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Karytay on Tuesday 11 September 18 12:13 BST (UK)
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I can not get any farther with David Thomson. And his surname is diffidently spelt Thomson. He was born abt. 1910 Byker. Married Nina Patterson, she was born abt 2 Mar 1909 Newcastle and died 1971 Gateshead, Durham.
David Thomson, I can not go any father. I have looked for cesus records, birth, and death, nothing. there was a census record with a David Thomson with a father born in India. Do not know if this is the David I am looking for.
David and Nina had three sons, David Gordon b. 1930 and his twin Henry or Harry, and then Kenneth b. 1933 all born in Newcastle Upon Tyne, inferred county Tyne and Wear.
Thanks
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Who does he name as his father on his marriage cert when he marries Nina?
What is the source of his place of birth being Byker?
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The marriage for David and Nina should give fathers name if you can't pin down a birth registration or 1911 census for him.
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Have you ruled this birth out?
Dec 1910 Newcastle
David Thomson mothers name COOK
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I do not have the marriage certificate. Cannot even find their marriage registration. No Milliepede I have not ruled that out. It could very well be his. I am completely in the dark with him.
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Are you sure he died in Durham?
Only death I can see with dates that fit (ie 1910-1971) is this one:
Apr/May/Jun 1971
Llanelly
8a 1512
David Thompson
age 61 dob 1 April 1910
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And the David Thompson who has dob 1 April 1910, can be seen with a wife Sophia, whom it looks as if he married in 1934 Sophia Cunningham on Northimberland.
Where is your info coming from if you have no records at all?
In the absence of records, you need to start with the latest Established fact - that does have records - and work back. So , did David and Nina have children? If so, can you find their births ...
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It's the one birth that stands out to be honest.
Have you found the family on the 1939 register? That will give you his exact date of birth.
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Here is the marriage you are referring to:
Jan/Feb/Mar 1930
Newcastle
ref 10b 201
David Thomson/ Nina Patterson
getting that cert will be your first move, if you are sure this is the right person.
Nina Thomson does inded die Durham in 1971
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The marriage can be found quite easily on Free BMD index - Mar 1930 :)
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It might help others when researching if you can let others know his religion - was he RC or Church of England etc?
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Ok! let me start again, David Gordon Thomson born 25 Aug 1930 this date was on his death registration. He died in 2001 Newcastle Upon Tyne. On his birth registration all it has for his mother is her surname Patterson.
Now his daughter tells me her father David Gordon Thomson's mother's name was Nina and his father David. this is all she knows of her grandparents.
So armed with this info I looked for a marriage registration for a David Thomson and Nina Patterson ( this from David Gordon's birth registration as well as his brothers.) Found David and Nina marriage 1930 Newcastle upon Tyne.
Nina Patterson I have been able to go back even more for her. Her parents were - Henry Sidney Burleigh Patterson 1885 Liverpool, Lancashire, England-1955 Newcastle Upon Tyne, Northumberland, England and Helen Mary Scott 1884 Heaton Newcastle On Tyne -1977 Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne and Wear, England.
But David Thomson I cannot find even a census for him. I even tried using his sons names for his father think he might of name one of his sons after his father. Nothing!
River Tyne Lass, I have no idea what his religion is. Have to as my friend.
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Thanks Milliepede.
David Thomson was Roman Catholic.
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As others have said, the marriage cert looks like the first step.
How sure are you about his birthplace and birth year? There are LOTS of David Thomson births for the right period in Scotlands People for instance. It really would help if you can say what you know for definite and what your source is.
Given his age, its possible that he does not appear on the 1939 register as he was likely to have been in the forces.
If you have access to Ancestry they have electoral rolls for Newcastle.
Nina and David Thomson are both listed in 1931 at 58 Mason St, Newcastle, St Lawrence Ward, along with Henry Sidney Patterson and Helen Mary Patterson
1938 and 1939 they are both listed at 78 Mason St, Newcastle
1952 David, Nina and David G (likely to be their son) at 50 Mason St
1955, 1956 David, Nina and Kenneth at 50 Mason St
1957 David and Nina at 50 Mason St
1958 50 Mason St , only has a David Thomson listed
1959 50 Mason St just has a Henry S and Marguerite E Thomson listed
There are no registers in the database for 1960-1964
and I have run out of time to firkle after that, but I'd say that your David was still alive in 1957-1958, which at least narrows down the time frame for his death and the electoral registers which list him, his wife and a son are a fair indication these are the right people.
Boo
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Thanks Millipede & Boo for some clues. I will try looking up for a marriage at St Lawrence RC Byker ..
Will get back soon ..
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No, unfortunately can't see a marriage for them there. :-\
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Thanks Tickettyboo I think you have found the family. I did look for the 1939 register on Find my Past but could not find it there. Will look at Ancestry again. Now that you have given me the info.
Thanks to all of you for your patience and trouble in helping me, much appreciated.
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Given his age, its possible that he does not appear on the 1939 register as he was likely to have been in the forces.
1938 and 1939 they are both listed at 78 Mason St, Newcastle
A free search on the 1939 Register shows Nina, David G. Kenneth D and Henry Thompson (note spelling of surname) at Mason Street. No David.
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If he was in the forces, it might be possible that he was killed in the war.
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If he was in the forces, it might be possible that he was killed in the war.
No, because he is in the electoral registers until 1958 at least (reply #13) :)
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Oh well, that rules that idea out. Thanks Jen.
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Newcastle Evening Chronicle 11 May 1971
Deaths
Thomson North Kenton ** Mostyn Green (late of Byker)
May 10 aged 62 years, Nina, dearly loved daughter of Helen (Nellie) Patterson and dear mother of David, Harry and Kenneth. Cortege leaving sister’s residence 150a Whitehall Road, Gateshead, Wednesday 11 noon for cremation West Road 12.30. Friends please meet at Crematorium. Cut flowers only.
Slightly odd (though it did happen) that there was no mention of her husband (either late or living), which would have been helpful.
and the electoral rolls from 1966 to 1971 have a Nina Thomson as the only person at 20 Colgrove Way, Kenton - which as far as I can tell is in an area of Kenton known as Mostyn Green - but I am not sure about that as I don't know the area at all.
Which means its now possible that David either died between 1957/8 and 1966 - or maybe the couple parted during that time.
Boo
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Yes, I looked at the rest of the election registers and David does not appear in them later than 1958. His son Henry was in the police force and the family think that maybe David was also in the police force. Henry's son also was in the police force as a detective.
Thanks Boo for the info from the newspaper.
I was looking for graves, but now I know I have to look at cremation as a possibility for other family members.
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This is just quick as my Kindle is running out of charge .. I checked the memoriam notices for Nina for 1972 in the Evening Chronicle. Seven notices were placed for her and loads of family members are named but no husband. The notices are lovely - one of these from her Mother.. quite long list .. she was obviously much loved and missed.
One from sister Edna .. some from children .. one from a niece etc.,.. If you like I can type these up at some point when I can get to this library again in next few weeks .. can't do today as I am running low on charge... just let me know if your friend would like these .
Following on from Boo's post - home address was given as '58 Mostyn Green, North Kenton'.
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Yes she would like them, thanks so much River Tyne Lass.
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Please let us know if/when you get the marriage certificate and have his Dad's name.
We may be able to help further and (most importantly<g>) I am incurably nosey and like to know how things turn out :-)
Boo
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Lol. thanks Boo. will let you know.
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I have noted all the memoriams after my last post yesterday and will get these typed and posted as I get time. :)
I may have been wrong yesterday when I related that no husband was mentioned in the memoriams. Tucked away at the very end of the list I discovered the one below from 'Dave'. This is the only one in which no relationship to Nina is described. I wonder if he might be her husband?
Evening Chronicle - May 10, 1972
THOMSON (North Kenton), Loving memories of Nina, died May 10, 1971. Time passes, memories stay. Always remembered, Dave.'
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This is the memoriam from Nina's Mother:
'THOMSON. In everlasting memory of my dear daughter, Nina. (Patterson) who fell asleep in God's own arms a year ago today. Death divides, but memories cling. Always in her mother's thoughts.
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Evening Chronicle - May 10, 1972
THOMSON (North Kenton), Loving memories of Nina, died May 10, 1971. Time passes, memories stay. Always remembered, Dave.'
I suppose that might be son David rather than husband David :-\
Although you know that the correct surname was Thomson, I do think you need to look for deaths indexed under the surname Thompson.
Hopefully the marriage certificate will contain the information you need to take the search on further.
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Yes, he might be the son or other person - it is a bit of a mystery as yet. Dave is the only one on notices who did not identify his relationship to Nina.
This is the memoriam from son Harry. I know you have already mentioned him so I presume he is dead. I have put his what may be the other names of likely his wife and children in asterisks just in case they are still living. I am unsure if I will be allowed to post these or not so will err on side of caution.
'THOMSON. (late of Byker), In Loving memory of my dear mother, Nina, who died one year ago today, May 10. If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, We would walk right up to heaven, mam, and bring you home again. It hurt, it made me cry, but the saddest part of all is we never said goodbye; Time may pass but memories will live on. Always in our thoughts, Harry, **, **, **, **.'
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This is the memoriam from son Ken:
'THOMSON (58 Mostyn Green, North Kenton), In loving memory of my dear mother, Nina, died May 10, 1971. I think of you in silence, I make no outward show. What it meant to lose you, no one will ever know. Ever remembered by her loving son Ken.'
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'THOMSON (North Kenton and Byker), In memory of a loving sister, Nina (Patterson), We fought so hard to keep her but she slipped away one year ago today. Always in our thoughts. Sister Edna, brother-in-law Joe, ** and **.'
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This is the memoriam from sister Mabel:
'THOMSON (North Kenton). In loving memory of my dear sister, Nina died May 10, 1971. Always remembered Mabel.'
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This is the memoriam from Nina's niece:
'THOMSON (North Kenton) In loving memory of aunt, Nina, died May 10, 1971. Sweet are the memories silently kept, Of one we loved dearly and will never forget. Loved and remembered always, niece, **, husband **, **, **, and **.'
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Perhaps what I could do and what I ran out of time to do yesterday is to look to see if any memoriams appeared in the next year - 1973. On the off-chance that a Dave may have posted a memoriam and also identifying himself in relationship to Nina.
I think it will be likely that I will be able to look again at the Newcastle library at some point in the coming week.
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Thanks so much for the posts River Tyne Lass. I will pass them on to my friend.
'THOMSON. (late of Byker), In Loving memory of my dear mother, Nina, who died one year ago today, May 10. If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, We would walk right up to heaven, mam, and bring you home again. It hurt, it made me cry, but the saddest part of all is we never said goodbye; Time may pass but memories will live on. Always in our thoughts, Harry, **, **, **,
This one brought tears to my eyes.
JenB, I saw that the surnames get mixed up. will go back and look under Thompson and see what pops up.
I think it could be the husband Dave if it was the son would he like the others said mom, mam or mother?
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Save you looking later RTL
10 May 1973 Newcastle Evening Chronicle
there are two In Memoriam notices for Nina Thomson
1st from her son David
THOMSON (late of Byker) Through life I loved you dearly. In death I do the same. From memory's page I will never blot, Three little words forget me not. Always remembered by son David
2nd from what appears to be the "Dave' from the previous year's notices
THOMSON Cherished memories of Nina, died May 10 1971.
Dave
10th May 1974
Just the one In Memoriam notice this year
THOMSON Treasureed memories of Nina, died May 10 1971.
Always remembered. Dave
No notices in 1975
So I'd say that the 'Dave' is definitely not her son , and may well be her husband ( or as I suspect, possibly her estranged or ex husband)
In the electoral rolls Nina is in 20 Colgrove Way, Kenton from 1966 to 1971
I just looked and there is a David Thomson, only person registered in the house, at 76 Mason St, Saint Lawrence Ward from 1965 to 1968.
Pure speculation but maybe she moved to another area and David stayed in Mason Street but at a different house number.
Boo
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Thanks Boo, with what you have given it does look like Dave and Nina were not together.
Just to let you know the three sons are all dead.
All this info and still cannot find Dave or David's parents. :(
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I wonder if there would be a little memorial stone or something at the crematorium for Nina?
It really sounds like she was well loved and the tributes are very touching.
I agree it looks like the couple had separated.
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Thanks Boo for looking up the other memoriams - I do tend to suspect too that 'Dave' is the husband and that Nina and husband were separated .. but perhaps still in good terms if that definitely is him who posted notices.
Millipede I think you could be right and it could turn out that she may have some type of memorial - as you say she seems very much loved judging by the touching tributes. In my experience I have come across people who were cremated but who also have a grave stone.
Karytay, I am not sure if records for cremations/burials go up to 1971 at the library but I could check the next time I can go. Not that this will say if there is a stone but it might be revealed if she has a burial plot after cremation.
This is just speculation at this point but there was a David Thomson whose death was registered in the Newcastle upon Tyne district in the September quarter 1980 but his birth was recorded as 22 Dec 1905. I wonder if the David you are looking for may have been born earlier than 1910 and if this might be him?
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We don't have David in 1939 do we with an exact birth date.
I wonder too if he was born earlier than 1910 - where did the 1910 birth year come from?
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Could be getting somewhere with that 1980 death. Using birth year of 1905 one possible comes up born Byker.
Birth reg Mar 1906.
Mothers name for that one is REED in case it pans out.
Suggested record for that birth leads to the 1930 marriage to Nina Patterson.
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I do not remember were I got the birth date of 1910. But I do know it is not a set date. Also looked at the year 1905/6. What strikes me is it says born Byker. Apparently the familys all grew up their. So will look at that one.
No I have not found him in the 1939 census register yet. to think of it I have not found the sons in 1939 either. David Gordon Thomson was born 1930 and his twin Harry/Henry Sidney then Kenneth 1933.
Boo do you think there is a notice in the paper for Kenneth ? he died in 1975. it would be interesting to see if Dave place a notice for his son.
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No I have not found him in 1939 yet. to think of it I have not found the sons in 1939 either. David Gordon Thomson was born 1930 and his twin Harry/Henry Sidney then Kenneth 1933.
I pointed you to Nina and the boys in reply #17 !
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Newcastle Evening Chronicle
8th August 1980
THOMSON (Heaton) 70 Second Ave on August 8, aged 74 years.
David, dear husband of Jane and dear father of David, Harry and the late Kenneth, service at Newcastle Crematorium on Tuesday August 12 at 1.00 p.m Funeral private, no flowers by request. Donations in lieu if desired may be sent to the North of England Campaign for Cancer Research 17a Saville Row, Newcastle 1.
The above is likely to be related to the death registration in Q3 1980, the children mentioned seem to be the right ones.
There is a 'possible marriage registration in Q1 1968, Newcastle upon Tyne David Thomson and Jane Reed.
If it were me, I'd still want that first marriage cert to tell me his declared age when he married and his father's name and occupation to be sure of getting the right people when moving back a generation to his parents. Its very easy, with a common name, with common spelling variations to latch onto someone else's dead folk and end up spending a long time documenting the wrong people.
(and, if it was my direct line, I'd be wanting both marriage records cos I am a belt and braces person!)
Boo
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Well done! A triumph of firkling ;D
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the online stuff, though 'billed' as being searchable, rarely brings up announcements as they are often scanned badly and the OCR just can't cope. So I firkle day by day. Given three months I pick one and do that. Lucky me! I picked the middle one this time so got it fairly quickly.
For some of mine the announcement has been on the last day of the last of 3 months I look at - and in a couple of cases in the first few days of the next quarter! It can be tedious, but I get there in the end :-)
Boo
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I haven't heard of firkling but excellent result well done!
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I haven't heard of firkling
Boo is a frequent and excellent firkler :D
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So it would seem :D
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I haven't heard of firkling but excellent result well done!
Oh it pays dividends :-) Think of your granny's old sideboard, if you firkle (rummage, poke, prod have a good sort through the drawers and cupboards, then do it all again just in case you missed something special) you can come up with all sorts of goodies. My Granny is long gone so the interwebby thing has now taken the place of the sideboard :-) There's all sorts of goodies to be found - though a lot of them still evade me, I live in hope that I find the equivalent of a hidden drawer or an old Christmas biscuit tin that, in amongst all the buttons and old coins, has a scrap of paper that WILL tell me where my Mary Ann Brown was born and who her Mum was .
Boo
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I used to go to rummage sales with my Gran so get what you mean!
Just looking at the David with a father born India mentioned in the original post.
The father being Cecil Abbott Thomson.
In 1891 he is 27 married to Elizabeth Ann 27 with children
Eleanor 4 and James Henry 1 and sister in law
Maria Blenkinsop 22
Birth registrations for those children Mar 1887 and Jun 1889
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2 more children before 1911
Cecil Abbott Mar 1903 mothers name REED same mothers name as the birth found earlier for David in Mar 1906.
So as stated before we really do need the 1930 marriage to see if his father was Cecil Abbott.
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Possible death for mother of the first 2 children Elizabeth Ann Thomson in Jun 1902 age 38.
Haven't found a second marriage to REED yet.
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You ladies certainly have hunting for info down to a fine art! :)
Spoke to my friend, she seems to remember Heaton as the place were David moved to. she thinks it was after the houses were demolished in and around Mason street. She also mentioned first or second ave.
So you have found him Boo, great job.
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Well done Boo on finding him on the death notice! :D
I had a feeling he would turn out to be the 1980 death one and that 'Dave' was the husband when I found the first lot of memoriams.
Just out of curiosity millipede (or anyone who knows the answer) how can you tell that his was a Byker area death? Is it a bit like the marriage locator where cardinal points are used? I am always keen to learn something new genealogy-wise. :)
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I found the marriage to Jane Reed on Ancestry. David and her were married in the fist quarter in 1968.
England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: David Thomson
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1968
Registration district: Newcastle upon Tyne
Inferred County: Northumberland
Spouse: Jane Reed
Volume Number: 1b
Page Number: 231
A question, if David and Nina were Roman Catholic how does a divorce work then? would they be able to get divorced ? And if so would there be any documents available just with dates ?
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Did we actually have 'anything' that said they were Catholic or that one or the other was and if they married in an RC church?
I SO miss the old marriages search on Newcastle registrars site. They took it down years ago and it was SO useful!
and yes, Catholics can/could divorce - divorce is a civil procedure. Though the priest wouldn't be happy and they wouldn't (at least back then, or not without qualifying to go through a long and complicated procedure) be allowed to re-marry in an RC Church, but could re-marry in a civil ceremony.
Boo
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His granddaughter says she thinks they were catholic, the one son she know was catholic.
Now about David so called father I found Cecil Abbot Thomson's on Family Search.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&localeSubcountryName=Northumberland&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22cecil%20abbort%22~%20%2Bsurname%3Athomson~%20%2Bspouse_surname%3Areed~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland%20%2Brecord_subcountry%3A%22England%2CNorthumberland%22&localeSubcountryName=Northumberland,Northumberland,Northumberland
and
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS93-RVC
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I have looked at the Family Search catalogue specifying the place as Byker.
They have images (viewable only at a Family History Centre, not from home unless you are a church member) of marriages for the relevant period for the marriage of David Thomson and Jane NinaPatterson for the following churches in Byker
St Mark
St Anthony
St Lawrence (which I think RTL has already checked and discounted)
St Michael
I am hoping to go to our local FHC next week (fingers crossed anyway) so will look at those to see if I can either find a marriage or at least discount those churches, sometimes even knowing where something didn't take place is a step forward.
Boo
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Thanks We have the same problem with some record. Having to go to Family Search centers.
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No, Boo - I only looked for Nina and David in 1930. I didn't look for the 1968 marriage.
For them I ruled out St Lawrence, St Anthony & St Dominic. That leaves only two on your list of I haven't missed something. It might be that they married at a C of E Church possibly too.
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Yes, I have altered my post, I meant to say Nina Patterson,
Boo
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Cecil A Thomson had his death registered in Newcastle in June quarter 1947.
I am just off to work now but when I can next get to the Newcastle library (if no one beats me to it) I can check if their records of burials/cremations go that far.
If he wasn't cremated I think it likely that he may be buried in the Heaton & Byker cemetery. If a date for burial or cremation could be found this would make it easier for me to look up a death notice which would likely give his wife's first name (nee Reed) at least.
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Perhaps it may turn out that his second wife may have been a widow.
Perhaps Cecil A (jnr) and David may have been born before their parents went on to marry.
Possibly married either Isabella Armstrong or Mary A Barrass in 1911 in Newcastle registration district.
I know this is all just conjecture at this point. I am just tossing around ideas. :)
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Cecil A Thomson had his death registered in Newcastle in June quarter 1947.
Morning RTL
The Cecil A Thomson, Q2 1947 was 44 when he died - so more likely to 'possibly' have been David Thomson's brother, rather than his Dad.
Interestingly, there is also an Abbott Thomson whose death was registered in Q1 1947, who was 83 when he died and could 'possibly' be the (previously billed as Cecil Abbott Thomson) father of both David and Cecil A Thomson?
Though this Cecil Abbot (or just plain Abbott) Thomson is a likely candidate for being David's father, without something tangible such as the marriage record to give us a definite link between the generations, its still circumstantial.
Boo
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Thanks Boo - my brain is not in full gear yet .. ;D.
When I get a chance though I could check to see if 'Dave' left a memoriam for his Father 'Abbott' - it might reveal if he was his Father or not.
Got to go now ...
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Just in case it hasn't been mentioned and is of use Free BMD index for the 1885 marriage between Cecil and Elizabeth has a postem giving more info - Byker St Michael marriage register 5 April 1885
Am wondering if he did have a second marriage or just a relationship. It must have been quite soon after Elizabeth died if that was her death in 1902 as another child is born early 1903 :-\
Guess the only way to know who she was is a birth record for one of the Reed children.
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Speculating again but there is a death for Elizabeth Thomson Mar 1907 age 31. Wondering if she was Elizabeth Reed mother of the last 2 children. Would explain why Cecil is alone with them in 1911.
Also do we have Elizabeth Ann Thomson who died 1902 on the 1901 census? If I remember Cecil wasn't listed with a wife there either although he was married.
Just a bit more to keep us busy!
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I looked at the transcript of the 1901 census For Cecil Abbott Thomson there is not mention of a wife and it does not say if he is a widower. It has him born in Delki India were as the 1911 census has him born in Moultan India, wonder if these two place are connected.
The children on the 1901 census are said to have been born in Walker
The 1891 census has Cecil Abbott Thomson born in Scotland with a wife Elizabeth Ann, is this the one you are talking about Milliepede ?
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That's right it says he is married in 1901 but no wife present.
Yes the Elizabeth Ann he married in 1885. If it was her that died in 1902 she should be somewhere in 1901 census.
Birth registrations for the first 2 children were registered Tynemouth which covers Walker.
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But what about the place of birth? Do you think he might not of been born in India but instead Scotland ? Would be easier to find more if that is the case.
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Baptism of Cecil Abbott Thomson Jnr on Familysearch, 20 May 1903, Byker St. Michael, gives mothers name as Annie Thomson. Same mother on the free search facility on Durham Records Online. Can't see a suitable marriage for Cecil Thomson and Annie Reed.
There is a potential Annie Reed candidate in 1901, widowed, 28, b. Sunderland at 43 Headlam St., Byker. 2 streets, 8 census pages away from the Thomsons. Can't find her in 1911.
Alan.
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Thanks Alan
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If Annie Reed was widowed in 1901 then technically Reed wouldn't be her maiden name :(
Personally I don't think there was a Thomson/Reed marriage.
Don't suppose you can find a baptism for David late 1905/early 1906 at the same place?
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Here is a David born 1906
Name: David Thomson
Registration Year: 1906
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Newcastle upon Tyne
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Northumberland
Volume: 10b
Page: 166
and
David Thomson
England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: David Thomson
Death Age: 74
Birth Date: 22 Dec 1905
Registration Date: Sep 1980
Registration district: Newcastle upon Tyne
Inferred County: Tyne and Wear
Volume: 2
Page: 0307
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Yes we already have those.
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Those are the only one's so far I can find.
The others are year 1910 which I thought might be him. there is one for 07/1900 Newcastle upon Tyne Northumberland. or 07/1901 even 1911. But no more for 1905/6. Unless someone else can find something.
Wonder if he had a middle name for there is this David Henry Thomson Birth
04/1906 Newcastle upon Tyne Northumberland Volume: 10b Page: 95
But the family do not recall a second name ever been mentioned.
There is a tree on Ancestry that has this family but David born 1906 is call a half brother. father is Cecil Abbott Thomson b. 1864 India - 1947 married to Elizabeth Ann Blenkinsop 1864 Newcastle upon Tyne died APRIL 1902 Northumberland. Married Apr 1885 Newcastle, her parents Henry Blenkinsop and Eleanor Hetherington.
Eleanor and James Henry they say are Elizabeth Ann Blenkinsop and David and Cecil Abbott another mother which they do not have.
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The death registration fits with the notices we found which included children names that were a match for your David's known children.
and the birth registration matches with the birthdate of 22 Dec 1905 as stated on the death registration .
Births are required to be registered within 6 weeks so a registration of Q1 1906 would be a match.
Boo
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Boo I am inclined to agree with you. But now this new info has confused matters.
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Its difficult to know how well someone else's tree has been researched. I have seen some which are dire, people who die 50 years before they have children etc. and some seem to happily copy whole swathes of other people's tree into their own without checking anything.
Others are well researched and quote checkable sources. Its hit and miss. You could ask the tree owner if they are willing to tell you what sources they have as back up?
You are still looking for something definite that will enable to you to back a generation for the David who married Nina.
I have not yet seen anything that tells me where David was born or what his father was called. All I can see for definite so far is that as an adult he lived in the Byker area, he could have been born anywhere in or outside the country.
I will check the marriage registers that can be accessed at the FHC next week, if their marriage is in there his age at marriage and his father's name should be on that. (Though there is always a chance they married in a registry office in which case the GRO is the only source of the info.)
I'll report back when I have been to the FHC, fingers crossed !
Boo
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Called at the library on way home from work ..
The death notice for Abbott Thomson in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle - Monday, March 3 1947:
THOMSON-ABBOTT, 80 Corbridge Street., Feb 28 aged 83. Interment Heaton Cemetery. Tuesday 2.30. Funeral private. No flowers.'
No memoriams in the following year.
The burial record has a reduced age of 80. It records that he was removed from St Michael's parish and home address is as in death notice. He was buried in Section 23 grave no 485 in a common grave.
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Thanks River Tyne Lass for taking to time to look at that.
What about ship passenger lists from India to England. If Cecil Abbott Thomson was born in India and then we find him in England. He must of arrived some time?
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Karytay, earlier in the thread you asked if there was a memoriam for Kenneth.
I was also able to find out last night that he was cremated at West Road Crematorium in Newcastle on 20 August 1975.
I found his death notice but did not find a memoriam. However, I was in quite a rush to get searching done before library closed so I can't rule out that I may have inadvertently missed this. I will check again at some point in the near future.
Evening Chronicle - Monday August 18 1975
THOMSON, North Kenton (?) Mostyn Green (late of Mason Street) in hospital in Aug (print very small could not make out of it says 13 or 15?) aged 41 years, Ken dearly loved son of David and the late Nina Thomson and dear brother of David and Harry. Cremation West Road Crematorium Wednesday 12.30 p.m. Leaving brother's residence (?) (?moor) Avenue High Heaton 12.10 p.m. Friends please meet at Crematorium.
As you can see some of the writing I could not make out as print was very small in that paper. Under normal circumstances I would have gone to find staff to get a bigger lens but I was so rushed for time. I can try again though at some point in the future.
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I should mention that when I looked for Abbott Thomson (perhaps Father)at Heaton Cemetery I also looked at same cemetery for David's perhaps brother but did not find a Cecil Abbott Thomson at Heaton. He must be elsewhere obviously but I did not get time to check further.
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You are still looking for something definite that will enable to you to back a generation for the David who married Nina.
I have not yet seen anything that tells me where David was born or what his father was called. All I can see for definite so far is that as an adult he lived in the Byker area, he could have been born anywhere in or outside the country.
Karytay, can I just re-enter this thread and agree with Boo?
You need firm evidence of David's father's name before you can be really confident in some of the assumptions you are making. As Boo has said, it seems you are assuming he was born in the north-east, but what evidence do you have?
Possibly Boo will be able to find the marriage for you when she checks at the FHC next week. If not your next move should be (as already advised by several folks on this thread) to purchase the marriage certificate.
You really need to go back one step at a time, and the certificate is the first step.
What about ship passenger lists from India to England. If Cecil Abbott Thomson was born in India and then we find him in England. He must of arrived some time?
Personally I would put this completely to one side until I had definite evidence of David's parentage.
(I quite expect to be shot down in flames)
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I got the info from his granddaughter, but then she was still very young at the time. It could be possible that David was born someplace else. But not outside of Newcastle probable another parish. She said none of her family ever left Newcastle, her Dad or Mom's side. It is only her generation that spread their wings.
We are waiting for her older brother to come back to us with what he remembers, do not know how long that will take. He is not a well man.
She is a very busy lady and I am hoping to visited her either to day or over the week end. Apparently she has a lot of papers on the family in a box some place. Has to find everything, cross fingers that there is some clues among the papers.
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This Abbott Thomson 'may' be his father, he is a contender.
David 'may' be the child in that birth registration and have been born in Byker, that too is a contender.
I am not saying that the above suggestions are wrong, just that until/unless we get a tangible link such as the marriage record where the information tells us how old he was at that time and who his Dad was and what he did for a living, we won't know - and it can be very disheartening to think you have traced back another couple of generations and then find that you had the wrong father in the first place.
Maybe your friend has something in old family papers which will help or maybe they did marry in a Byker Church and I'll see what I can find next week.
Boo
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Yes, I think we all need to sit tight now until Boo has had a chance to look for the marriage next week. Hopefully, if this is found Karytay it will give you evidence to enable you to research reliably on the previous generation. I agree with Boo on what she says about Ancestry too. Some people will just copy from others without questioning the sources from where information has come from.
I am very interested to know what the marriage certificate will say too. Like Boo I am 'nosey' or incurable inquisitive - a good thing to be for addicted genealogists in my opinion. ;D ;D
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I am suffering in silence here.
Her mother's side the Brennan's I have managed to get to the great grandfather Dennis Edward Brennan and that's where I have stopped. Her mother's mom the Mitchell's are also not to sure about have to get documentation for that side.
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I went to our local FHC this morning.
Not good news, the best I can do is increase the list of churches where David Thomson and Nina Patterson were NOT married. ( the images they currently have don't include anything as recent as David's second marriage so I can't check that)
RTL already checked St Lawrence and they aren't in there
Nor were they married at St Mark's, St Michael's or St Anthony's that I could see.
The only other churches I can think of in the Byker area are St Silas and
St Martin, neither of which had images in the family search database for Byker.
Or they could have married at a church further away, maybe in Newcastle - which is a LOT of churches in that area.
The other option is they could have married in a register office in which case we won't find a record either online or in any archives.
Boo
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Oh dear! Boo, that is not good. Thanks for trying.
Their civil marriage registration just says the 1 quarter 1930 Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland Vol. 10b page 201.
Will just have to wait for the certificate.
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Byker St. Silas marriages are on DRO, nothing there.
Genuki says Byker St. Martin was founded in 1933.
Nina was baptised at Byker St. Michael, and that was the closest church to where she was living in 1929 at 58 Mason St. (assuming she was living with her parents, too young to vote so not on Electoral Register). David and Nina were there living with her parents in 1930.
The assumed David Thomson is with his parents and brother at Corbridge St. about a quarter of a mile away in 1929, but not living with them in 1930. His brother was also baptised at St. Michael, but no sign of Davids baptism there.
So you would expect if they were having a Church Wedding it would be there. Maybe they married elsewhere or at a Registry Office because David had not been baptised.
Alan.
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Yes, I think you might be best off to send for the certificate. If David was Catholic and Nina C of E they may have chosen to get married in a registry office.
My parents were in that situation when they married in 1936 and as neither wanted to switch denomination they chose the registry office. However, Dad's local priest was not happy about this and persuaded them a few years later to have another ceremony at the RC Church. I was able to find an entry about this at the Church of my Dad's baptism. RC Churches are very good at keeping records I have found.
Karytay, please keep us updated when you get the certificate - I am interested to see now who David's Father was - I suspect it was Cecil but could be wrong - suppose only time and the certificate now will tell.
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I am waiting River Tyne Lass, patiently. I have been looking at the census's and feel Cecil Abbot could be the father, as you suspect.
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Here's an update for us all to work on.
Birth for David Thomson as follows
22 December 1905
61 Bond Street
Newcastle
father Cecil Abbott Thomson shipyard labourer
mother Annie Thomson formerly Reed
Annie was the informant same add as above and birth registered 2 Feb 1906
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Possible Annie Reed candidate in the 1901 census at 55 Bond Street with parents as transcribed below
Benjamin Reed 43 shipyard labourer
Isabella Reed 38
Annie Reed 23 domestic servant
All born Sunderland Durham
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Marriage Mar 1881 Sunderland
Benjamin Reed
Isabella Leviss
and birth
Jun 1880 Sunderland
Leviss Annie Reed - no mothers maiden name shown
Seems to fit doesn't it.
By the way for anyone looking they are under Beed in 1891.
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Milliepede, I think all this looks promising .. :)
Perhaps the next step might be to locate a possible death for Annie Thomson nee Reed. Then when I am able to, fitting in with work etc, over the next few weeks I could go to the Newcastle library and look for burial/cremation and then look for a death/memoriam notices which may provide more evidence that she is likely to be David's Mother.
I am on the move now but will look on freebmd tomorrow for a likely death or if someone can help find a likely death registration that would be helpful.
I think if Annie Thomson remained in the area she may well have been buried in Heaton Cemetery.
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Yes me too but locating a death is proving easier said than done.
She could be under one of 4 surnames - Leviss - Reed - Thomson or a n other if she married.
I don't believe she married Cecil but that doesn't mean she wasn't using his name.
I wonder why he was left with the children? She could have died or equally left him to it we just don't know.
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Yes, I agree.
I think what I could try when I get time at some point over the next few weeks is try to find out of There are notices for David's brother Cecil. If it turns out he has memoriams these may yield some clues. If there is a one from his Mother at least we will know she was still alive at that point.
When I checked last time I did not find him at Heaton yet it seems he died in the Newcastle area. Unless, I missed him in the Heaton registers he must surely be buried at one of the other Newcastle cemeteries or cremated. It should be possible to find him I think.
Karytay has your friend sent off for the marriage certificate yet or is she planning to soon?
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Evening Chronicle - 4 June 1940
Sergeant David Thomson wounded .. ?
Will check if this is him next time I can get to the library
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Evening Chronicle - 4 June 1940
Sergeant David Thomson wounded .. ?
Will check if this is him next time I can get to the library
Save you some time RTL.
Newcastle Evening Chronicle 04 June 1940
page 6, column 2
Wounded in Belgium
News has been received that Sergeant David Thomson has been conveyed to a hospital in England with wounds received in action in Belgium.
Sergeant Thomson who lives at 78 Mason Street, Byker, had been in the Territorials for a number of years.
Sadly, though there are photos of other men wounded, there isn't one of him.
Boo
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RTL my friend still has not ordered the certificates hopeful it will be this week, I think I must pester her till she gets tiered of me. :)
She did say that her father was in the military for a sort while, probable during WII. And her grandfathers and uncles. She also mentioned that the family spoke about an ancestor that was in the navy. But she does not know who that was.
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Yes that is him Boo - right address Mason Street per electoral register - well found.
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Oh RTL found it, I just looked at the date where she said it appeared and transcribed it to save her spending the time when she visits the archives next.
Boo
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Just had another thought. Deaths for her parents might mention a daughter Annie even better if it refers to her as Annie Thomson then we would have our link.
Benjamin Reed couple of deaths in Newcastle district
Sep 1925
Dec 1925
What is worrying is the census I have found for her parents don't mention any children. I suppose strictly she wasn't born during the marriage so technically correct. They don't appear to have had any other children. Worry over.
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Thanks Boo this will save me some time when I next get to the library that you have found the newspaper I mentioned. I had a feeling it would be him. I had hoped it might reference family members, but never mind.
Yes, I hope your friend gets around to ordering the certificate soon as this will confirm if Cecil really is David's Father.
I will see if I can find out anymore when I can next get to the library - probably won't be this week as work hours aren't compatible with library opening hours at the moment.
Thanks for finding the possible death registrations for Benjamin, Milliepede. Mind, I usually find in memoriams only a first name is mentioned.
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http://www.margaret-hall-genealogy.com/page6.htm
Perhaps another thing I could look at the next time I can fit in an archives visit for you Karytay is the school admission records.
These will usually provide child's date of birth, home address and name of parent or Guardian (usually the Father's name is provided) amongst other information.
If you look on the attached link under Tyne and Wear User Guides then under the Newcastle schools you will see there are some schools under the Byker and Heaton area which David and brother Cecil may have attended. I think it might be worth a try, anyway.
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It sounds like David Thomson's son went to the Royal Jubilee school in Byker. Is it possible that David also went there?.
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Cecil Abbot Thomson has date of birth in 1939 of 31/7/1863. Says he was born Scotland in 1891 census, India in 1901 and 1911.
On Familysearch : Albat Thompson, born 31/7/1863, Stirling, Scotland. Parents James Thomson and Ann Gibson. Scotlandspeople gives his name as Abbot Thomson.
1871 census, 30 Frederick St., Aberdeen,
James Thomson, 30, Private in 92nd Highlanders, b. Alloa, Clackmannanshire,
Ann ", wife, 29, b. Sauchie, Clackmannanshire,
Abbot ", son, b. 1863, Stirling, Stirlingshire,
Lillias ", dau, 2, b. Aldershot, Hampshire.
The 92nd (Gordon Highlanders) returned from India in 1862, so perhaps this is where his confusion with place of birth came from.
In 1881 James is now a Lance Corporal at a Military Barracks in Aberdeen, Lilllias (Lillian) is in a boarding school in Aberdeen. Abbott is in lodgings in Aberdeen. No sign of Ann.
An Abbott Thomson, born Stirling, Stirlingshire, joined the Royal Navy 30th April 1881, signing up for 10 years. The date of birth is out, 30 April 1863, but minimum age for sign up was 18 so maybe he added a few months on to get in early. He had a couple of stints as a boy sailor before that. However, there are no ships names or voyages on his record after 1881 sign up, so I wonder if he jumped ship in Newcastle.
Alan.
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Alan thanks for info, interesting, now it is even more confusing. So I gather you are saying the two Cecil Abbot Thomson's born in India and born in Scotland are the one and same person.
How does one go about proving it? Surely He should know were and when he was born? ???
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Cecil Abbott Thompson Senior born 1863, sometimes calls himself Cecil Abbot Thomson, sometimes Cecil Thomson, and sometimes Abbot Thomson. Sometimes Thompson with a p, sometimes Thomson without a p. Sometimes Abbot with one t, sometimes with 2.
On the Electoral Registers he's Abbot before 1898, then changes to Cecil Abbott until 1930 when he changes back to Abbot. He briefly changes to Abbot in 1909. Its the same person as he's living in the same houses with both names.
On his marriages he's Cecil Abbot, on his death cert he's Abbot.
At his daughter Eleanor Thomson baptism, 23 Feb 1887, Walker, he's Cecil Thompson.
At his son James Henry Thomson baptism, 19 June 1889, Walker, he's Abbot Thompson.
At his son Cecil Abbot Thomson baptism, 20 May 1903, Byker, he's Cecil Abbot Thomson.
In 1891 census he's Cecil Abbott Thomson, 27, with his first wife Elizabeth Ann (formerly Blenkinsop), two children and sister in law Maria Blenkinsop. and says he's born Scotland.
In 1901 he's Cecil A.Thomson, 37, married but no wife present, with the children from 1891, but now says he's born Delhi, India.
In 1911 he says born Moultan, India.
Alan.
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My goodness ! Alan how did you manage to get that all sorted. Thanks for your hard work, much appreciated.
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It is possible David could have gone to the Royal Jubilee School like his son but unfortunately if he did it doesn't look like his admission will be covered by what is held at the archives - on checking the user guides on the link I attached. More than 100 years have to have passed before anyone's school admission at the archives can be accessed too.
Great research by Alan!
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Karytay, just while we are waiting for your friend to get David's marriage here is a one for Cecil:
St Michael, Byker
Entry: 106
April 5th 1885
Cecil Abbott Thomson & Elizabeth Blenkinsop
Both 21
Bachelor & Spinster
Cecil was a 'Labourer'
Abode for both: This Parish
Fathers:
James Thomson - Clerk
Henry Blenkinsop - Coach-builder
Witnesses: Henry Blenkinsop & Jane Dunn
All signed.
Literally only had time to make a brief call in so thought I would get this.
I wonder if David and Nina may have married at St Gabriel at Heaton. Unfortunately, only Northumberland Archives would have those registers and not Tyne and Wear Archives where I can get to.
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Thanks River Tyne Lass, I got the index of Ancestry UK sometime ago. Thanks for the full info.
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Cecil Abbots father James Thomson ties in nicely with the James Thomson in Aberdeen. Some time between 1881 and 1885 he retires from the Army and becomes a Clerk in a Newspaper Office.
I think this is his wife Ann in 1881 :
26 Long Acre, Aberdeen
Ann Thomson, 39, b. St. Ninians Stirling, Soldiers Wife,
David Thomson, son, 1, b. Aberdeen
Ann Thomson, died 7th Nov 1885, aged 44. Widower is James Thomson, Clerk in a Newspaper Office, of 6 Canal Lane, Aberdeen. Parents of deceased : William Gibson, Spirit Dealer (deceased) and Jane Gibson, formerly Miller (deceased).
James remarried 6 weeks later. Things moved fast when you had small kids and needed to go to work to feed them.
22 Dec 1885, Aberdeen St. Nicholas. James Thomson, 45, Widower, Clerk in Newspaper Office, of 184 Gallowgate, Aberdeen, married Agnes Gillander, 37, Spinster. Grooms parents are William Thomson (Master Butcher), deceased, and Mary Ann Thomson, formely Jamieson - deceased.
1891 census - 11 Summerfield Place, Aberdeen,
James Thomson, 49, Clerk and Book keeper, b. Alloa, Clackmannanshire,
Agnes ", wife, 42, b. Aberdeen,
James ", son, 19, Barber, b. Edinburgh,
Thomas ", son, 11, b. Aberdeen,
David ", son 11, b. Aberdeen,
William ", son, 6, b. Aberdeen,
Andrew Brand ", son, 2, b. Aberdeen,
Hugh Christie ", son, 6m, b. Aberdeen,
Don't know where sons James and Thomas are in 1881. The birth of James Thomson (jnr) 19 Jul 1871, Edinburgh, parents James Thomson and Ann Gibson.
Agnes and the children are alone in 1901 so I presume James (snr) has died. Sons Thomas and William are Thomas G. Thomson, aged 22, and William G. Thomson, aged 17, so I suspect they are Agnes Gillanders children from before her marriage to James Thomson.
Alan.
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Wow, Alan thanks for all the work you are doing. I was looking for army records for James on Ancestry but have not found any yet. I do not know if they have the records of the Men that made a career in the army. What I could look at is the pension records, will go back and see what I can find.
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You are welcome Karytay. :)
Once again, this looks like brilliant research from you Alan. It all seems to tie in. If these were my ancestors I must say I would be over the moon with all you have found out. :)
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I am getting a bit worried for it has been far to easy. I hope this has not all been for nothing! Experience with my own family tree showed how difficult it can be to find information and documentation.
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It might appear 'easy' but I think a lot of time, thought and effort is going on behind the scenes in order to find answers on this thread. :)
I am doing a bit more research today on this. I haven't been able to find David on the school records when I was at the archives this morning so I am guessing that he probably was at the Royal Jubilee School which Tyne and Wear Archives don't have the register for.
What I have found just now is what I believe is strong evidence that David's brother Cecil was indeed the son of the Abbott Thomson who died on 28 February 1947. I will now have a lot to type up so this may have to wait until tomorrow now. I am at this moment on another trail on this thread which might open or shut or door down a particular avenue - we'll see. :) ;)
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Yes it is time and thank you for use your time to help.
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Well, unfortunately I think it looks like we can shut the door on Annie Reed, daughter of Benjamin being Cecil's partner. This is Benjamin's death notice:
Newcastle Evening Chronicle - Thursday November 26 1925:
'REED.- Byker, 102, Harvey Street, at the residence of his daughter, Mrs. Weedon, on the 24th, aged 68 years, Benjamin, the dearly beloved husband of the late Isabella Reed. To be interred at Heaton on Saturday; lift at 2.15. All friends and neighbours and fellow-workmen kindly invited.'
Then again, could Cecil have partnered up with Annie Weedon? Perhaps that is why they could not marry because she was already married?
Freebmd shows that an Annie Reed married a James Weedon in 1902.
I wonder what others have thoughts about this?
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Oh no. There was only ever the one daughter Annie wasn't there :-\
Must investigate but it's not looking good :( Why would she leave her 2 children with Cecil and remain Mrs Weeden. Is she with her husband in 1911 and what happened to James. Rats.
Hmmm great find though :)
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Couple of trees have death for James Weedon in France 1917 and for Annie 1948.
Son Richard William Weedon born 1907. His birth registered Jun 1907.
Does that clash with either of the other 2 children (David & Cecil) - if it does we can rule her out as the mother as she can't have had 2 at the same time.
No they don't clash.
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I don't think it would clash because Cecil was born in 1903 and David in 1905.
Benjamin had no memoriam the following year after death, darn it!
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A Cecil A Thomson married in Sept quarter 1911. I think it looks like first wife Elizabeth Ann died in 1902.
Annie Reed married James Weedon in 1902 and there was a five year gap before she went on to have Richard.
I can't see any evidence of Cecil having married Reed which was the mmn of David and Cecil's Mother.
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This memoriam unfortunately doesn't help point towards David and Cecil. Just don't know what to think regarding Cecil and David's Mother at this point. :-\
Newcastle Evening Chronicle - August 4 1949
'WEEDON (Byker), In loving memory of my dear friend Annie Weedon, who died on Aug. 4, 1948. In the morning she was bright and gay, And at noon she was called away. Ever remembered by her son and daughter-in-law, also by her best friend Joe.'
The death notice previous year
Newcastle Evening Chronicle - Friday August 6, 1948:
WEEDON, 102 Harvey Street, 4th aged 68, Annie (nee Reed) dearly beloved wife of late James. Interment Heaton Saturday leaving 1.45. Friends please meet cemetery 2 p.m.
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Cecil's death notice:
Newcastle Evening Chronicle - Tuesday May 13 1947:
'THOMSON, 191 Parker Street., May 11, beloved husband Alice (nee Amers). Interment Heaton, Thursday, leaving 2.30. Friends, neighbours, meet cemetery 3.0.'
Newcastle Evening Chronicle - May 11 1948:
'Thomson. Treasured memories of my dear husband Cecil, died May 11, 1947. He bade no one farewell, couldn't say goodbye, his soul had flown before we knew, Memories never die. Sadly missed by dear wife and children.'
Thomson. Treasured memories of Cecil died May 11, 1947. Sadly missed by brother-in-law William, sister-in-law Nellie, family. Never forgotten.
'Thomson. Treasured memories of my dear brother Cecil died May 11, 1947, also dear father died Feb 28. 1947. Always remembered by sister Nellie, brother-in-law David and children.'
You might note that 'Abbott Thomson' on an earlier post of mine died on February 28, 1947. I think this suggests that he is Cecil (jnrs) father.
Well, I have managed to get this all typed up today after all before my Kindle runs out of charge. :) Thought I may have had to wait until tomorrow at one point.
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Annie Reed is a bit of a mystery. Birthplace of Cecil Abbot Thomson (jnr) at his baptism in 1903 on the free search facility on Durham Records Online is 15 Robinson St. Cecil Abbot Thomson (snr) is living there in 1901 census, still there on the Electoral roll from 1902 to 1904 when he moves to 61 Bond St. David Thomson from his birth cert is born at 61 Bond St.
So it sounds like Annie Reed must have moved in with Cecil Abbot some time between 1901 and 1903 and either died or moved out some between 1906 and 1911. Cecil married Mary Ann Barrass in September qtr 1911. Cecil was at 85 Thornbrough St. in 1911, widowed Mary Ann was at number 86. I wonder if she was already looking after Cecils children.
Alan.
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Annie Reed is indeed a bit of a mystery. ???
I wonder who Mary Ann Barrass had been married to when she became a widow? Sometimes people used their second name instead of their first name. I wonder if Mary Ann may have been Annie or as you say Alan, perhaps David's Mother either left or died.
I think it is looking like David's Mother was not Benjamin Reed's daughter after all. Never mind, I always think it is a positive when we get off a wrong track. I think it was worth looking down that avenue as I think this did look like a promising lead, at one point.
One thing which we could consider whilst waiting for the marriage certificate is to think about when Mary Ann Thomson may have died. I think it looks like Cecil's first wife had no death notice from this link. I believe she must have died in 1902 as the age fits in with that on the marriage register.
Would Mary Ann have had a death notice and/or memoriams? If David and Cecil were grown at the point when she may have died they may have placed memoriams if she was their Mother.
I have nightshifts coming up now but when I next get a chance I could look into this.
Added: No, if she was living apart in 1911 she could not have been David and Cecil's Mother. So Annie Reed still remains a mystery. ??? :-\
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Just for the records from freebmd it looks like Mary Ann McFarline married Joseph Barrass in the June quarter of 1888 in Newcastle upon Tyne. Vol. 10b Page 246.
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There is only one Annie Thomson who died in Newcastle between the dates you mention, Alan but according to freebmd she was only age 1, March quarter 1911 Vol. 10b Page 82. Although it is rare I have come across an error on freebmd before so possibly this could be Annie with an incorrect age. I once researched a burial where the lady was in her forties when she died but freebmd had death as age 12. So it can happen. If this is Annie with the incorrect age I feel she would be likely to be found in the Heaton Cemetery Records.
Cecil married Mary A Barrass in the Sept. quarter of 1911 so if this above was his partner Annie this would have been fast work. However, I have seen fast work marriages before when a spouse may have needed someone quickly to take care of the children. ;D
Added: No there was an Annie Thomson who was born in 1909 who would fit the 1911 death.
There is also an Annie Reed who died in the December quarter 1911 age 49.
I know Annie may not be under the names of either Thomson or Reed when she left/died. She may not even have died in the Newcastle area. I am just trying to consider possibilities closest to home.
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Cannot remember if anyone look at the electral rolls to see if Cecil Abbot Thomas was living at 61 Bond street at the time David was born? Or was Annie and her sons the only one's there?
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Its just Cecil Abbott Thomson on the Electoral Roll at 61 Bond Street when David is born. I think only women who were widows or spinsters with their own property were on the Electoral Roll at this time.
Alan.
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Thanks Alan
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Crumbs I completely missed the info about Cecil marrying again in 1911 to Mary Ann Barrass :o
Possible death for Joseph Mar 1909 age 41.
Suddenly thought I've been looking for "Annie" all the time not thinking she might be down as "Ann"
so found a death in Jun 1907 Ann Reed age 40. Apologies if we've already ruled this one out.
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I think this sounds like a potentially good lead Milliepede. I think I was a bit focussed on the 'Annie' name too but your idea certainly sounds like worth chasing up. I have a bloodline ancestor who went by Ann officially but was Annie to friends and family.
I am en route home now from nightshift but when my run of these are finished and I get time to get to the library I will check to see if this 'Ann Reed' you mention may be in the Heaton Cemetery. I think this might be the most likely place if she stayed with Cecil until death.
As his first wife Elizabeth does not appear to have a death notice (see link below) perhaps Annie/Ann May not have one either if she is the second Mother of his children.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/DeathNotices/
Hopefully, if Ann is found at Heaton we may be able to link her to Cecil by her address if it turns out that she has no notices.
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Oh there's a probate entry for Ann Reed spinster died 24 April 1907.
Address Horsley-cottage Ovington Northumberland
Probate 10 May to Thomas Reed roadman and Isaac Reed stonebreaker.
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So we know this Ann Reed is a spinster - good start and Thomas and Isaac possibly siblings?
I don't know where Ovington is though, anywhere near where we want her to be?
1901 has an Ann Reed at Horsley - single, age not transcribed but looks like 66 :-\
Charwoman born Allendale.
Not looking good.
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No I agree this does not look good.
However, I do think that whoever Annie/Ann was she will possibly be in the Heaton Cemetery sometime between 1905 when David was born and 1911. I also think that if she did die between this time then on the burial register her address would probably be the same as that of Cecil.
Do we now have a list of where Cecil is known to have lived between 1905 and 1911?
Karytay, it may be worth your friend asking the bereavement services in Newcastle to do a paid search of their database for all the Annie/Ann's who may have been buried at Heaton Cemetery during that time and who had one of the known addresses that Cecil had.
The marriage certificate of David and Nina will give you his Father 's name (which I expect will tally with what Milliepede has found) but this won't give his Mother's real surname. I think that what I have suggested above might.
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Karytay, as I was in the library yesterday morning on my way home looking up something for another Rootschatter I thought I would stay back a little longer and look up the death of Cecil's first wife, Elizabeth.
Newcastle Evening Chronicle - Friday, April 18, 1902
'THOMSON.- Byker, 15 Robinson Street 15th inst., aged 38, Elizabeth Ann, dearly beloved wife of Cecil Abbott Thomson, and eldest daughter of Henry and the late Eleanor Blenkinsop. To be interred at Heaton Cemetery on Sunday, at 2 p.m. All friends kindly invited.'
No memoriams the following year.
This is her burial entry
Entry 6402
Elizabeth Ann Thomson
age 35 (3 years out to what appears in newspaper)
15 Robinson Street
Byker
Section H Grave 198
Burial Date 20 April 1902
I also checked for the 1907 'Ann Reed' in the Heaton Cemetery Records but I did not find her here.
My current thoughts regarding the mystery of David's Mother/Cecil's partner Annie/Ann are that she may have been a married woman to someone else. Divorce I believe would have been quite a stigma in those days and perhaps it may have been easier just to move in with a new partner rather than to seek a divorce.
There must have been a reason why Cecil did not marry this mother of his two sons, Cecil and David. I think it may be likely that he did not because he could not - on account that she may have had official ties to someone else. Cecil himself appears to have been free to wed - as the death notice of first wife above shows.
Consequently, I think there may a chance that Benjamin Reed's daughter may still be in the running. There was a good gap between her marriage and the birth of her first child to her husband. Although, this idea might be totally incorrect and Benjamin Reed's daughter may have had nothing at all to do with Cecil. However, I do still wonder if she may have split with first husband for a few years but then gone back to him. I think the odds are low that she would leave two small sons she would have likely bonded with, but on rare occasions I do think this type of thing happened so I still think we need to keep an open mind.
If 'Annie nee Reed' was someone else's wife (therefore with totally unknown surname) and she died when living with Cecil, as I have mentioned before I think there is a very good chance that she will appear in the Heaton burial records at some point between 1905 and 1911.
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http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1909&qtr=2&vol=10b&page=34&search=search
Just to add it looks like Cecil's daughter Eleanor (Nellie) married at St Michael & St Lawrence in 1909.
Just to add going back a number of posts and just to make things clear - because I read on here David was 'Catholic' I looked in the Catholic Church St Lawrence at Byker. If Annie was still alive then and with Cecil and wonder if there might be a small chance she could have been one of the witnesses.
I did not look in the St Lawrence which is Anglican. Did you check the Anglican Church in Byker, Boo for David and Nina's marriage? I can't check at Tyne and Wear Archives because they don't have a specific St Lawrence (Anglican).
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If 'Annie nee Reed' was someone else's wife (therefore with totally unknown surname) and she died when living with Cecil, as I have mentioned before I think there is a very good chance that she will appear in the Heaton burial records at some point between 1905 and 1911.
Good work ongoing, we are really building up a picture of this family.
It certainly happened that women left their children for whatever reason so not beyond the bounds it happened in this case especially if she was already married.
Will have a look for Annie + a n other surname deaths 1905-1911 to see if any stand out but there will be a lot called Annie and we have no clue how old she was :-\
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Hi RTL
Can't remember but I don't think so.
I was going today but its raining heavily and I'm full of cold so have stayed home. Its closed next week. So it will be the week after at the earliest that I visit next.
By then hopefully the marriage cert should have arrived, even posting it to Australia can't take too much longer?
Boo
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Hi Milliepede, yes we are building up a picture of this family. I think this would indeed be helpful if you could do some detective work if you can on any likely Ann/Annie individuals who look promising for the person we are looking for. If any have a different surname and seem promising a check might reveal if they also had a maiden name of Reed. Do keep us posted on any of your findings, please. :)
Boo, I am sorry to hear you have a cold - hope you are over this soon. That would be great if you could look at St Lawrence in a couple of weeks.
Karytay .. I don't know what you think ... I don't know what your friends circumstances are but I am starting to think that perhaps she may have been hoping to find out the answers on here for free without having to resort to purchasing a certificate. If so, I think we would all understand if she has other financial priorities just now. There doesn't seem to be much sign of a certificate forthcoming.
Perhaps, you could again chat to your friend perhaps and let us know if realistically we can expect one coming. I think it is true that most of us try to find things out for free if we can. It is just I think some of us here are all on tenterhooks.
It still might be possible that Boo may be able to find something in a couple of weeks even if no certificate is going to be sent for.
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Hi everyone, my friend said she would order the certificate today, she is going about it, around about way. She is getting your son to pay for it, as he lives in England and goes to Varsity there. It would coast her about R.175.00 if she paid for it with South African money. And since we need other certificates of other ancestry's that are also causing a bit of a problem, it will coast a lot of money paying with Rands. Plus our mailing system in this country is in shambles, so we will not get our post , depending what it is, in a week or two it could be months. If we get it at all!
When she saw that her ancestors were of the Catholic faith , she seamed surprised. She was under the imprecation most of them were Presbyterian. Considering that they came from Scotland.
Does someone have an answer for this ? Why is Harry and Henry interchangeable? to me they are quite different. I have come across Harry on my friends tree, some documents have him as Henry while others have him as Harry. This is confusing for now you think you do not have the same person.
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Hi Karytay
I don't see any evidence that David Thomsons family were Roman Catholic. That information came from yourself in a post on the second page of this thread.
"Thanks Milliepede.
David Thomson was Roman Catholic."
I think all of the Church records found in Scotland and Byker so far have been Church of Scotland and Church of England.
Henry and Harry are interchangeable. Harry was originally an informal version of Henry, but in the recent times has become a formal name in its own right.
Alan.
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1901 Byker
Annie Read 28 widow born Sunderland - sister to head of house Joseph Hinship - surname amended to Winship
Ehan? Read 2 niece so daughter of Annie
Presume that means this Annie was nee Winship but not sure of the childs name.
She may have gone on to meet Cecil and have more children. I realise her maiden name wouldn't be Read but thought we could check her out/rule her out anyway.
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Ok the little girl is Elsie Reid born Dec 1898 mothers name Winship.
So that's another spelling of Reed to consider.
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She is Annie Stewart Winship. Marries James Reid as Ann Stewart Winship in Newcastle in 1894. I couldn't find her with her married name after 1901, but there is a marriage of an Annie Stewart Winship to a Fritz Johannes Buck in Newcastle in 1903. Annie Buck is 38, born Sunderland in 1911, so I assume she remarried using her maiden name for whatever reason.
Alan.
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This is just quick as I might get interrupted ..
James Reid mentioned looks to have married Annie at St Silas, Byker.
http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1894&qtr=1&vol=10b&page=28&search=search
Second marriage does not give exact Church.
http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1903&qtr=2&vol=10b&page=230&search=search
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Hi Karytay,
So .. the marriage cert was sent for yesterday? That is good to hear. Hopefully you might be able to post what it says on here soon. It would be a long shot but I wonder if a witness might be called Annie and possibly David's Mother.
Millietay, I think David's Mother may really have the maiden surname of Reed which was put down for both her children. However, I suppose anything could be possible.
I think it might be quite difficult to establish this Annie.
A search of Annies/Anns at Heaton Cemetery during 1905 and 1911 and trying to find a match for a Cecil address might be one option but very time consuming without a database. Probably a paid search would be required with no guarantees.
If Annie returned to a 'husband ' it would be unlikely that any death notice/memoriam would reference either Cecil, or the two sons.
A long shot again but I wonder if Cecil may have gone back to Scotland to marry Annie and that may be why no marriage appears in this country?
I think Benjamin Reed's daughter may still be in the running. If there were any photos available out there of David and Annie Reed/Weedon's son your friend might be able to compare for similarities.
I once searched for my Great Grandmother who had moved to another area after the illegitimate birth of my Grandmother. To cut a long story short another most kind descendant answered my appeal, let me know the part of the story I did not know and sent photos. One of the photos showed such a resemblance to my own Mother I was almost blown away by the likeness - I would have recognised that face anywhere!
By the way this site does not show that there is a death notice of Elizabeth Ann Thomson in the newspaper but there definitely is one!
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/DeathNotices/deaths_TEAG
I suppose probably just a small over sight. I think we all certainly owe a debt of thanks to the person who did all the work on this site. I know it has been very helpful to me and many others.
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I think Benjamin Reed's daughter may still be in the running.
I agree. The fact she lived in the same street (1901 census) David was born a few years later is hard to ignore.
Am wondering if the birth for Cecil junior would give any different info than on the birth for David?
Probably not.
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Just ruminating on this and if this Annie Reed was the 'Mother' I think she would have actually been pregnant with Cecil at time of marriage.
Marriage was Sept quarter 1902 and Cecil was registered March 1903. ???
Back to the drawing board .. or could this have actually happened? Just don't know what to think at the moment. ???
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Aha! Milliepede! I think I have an idea to check if this Annie might be the one ..
I think you may have come across some information which is related to the birth which is likely to have David's Mother's signature on ..
What if next time I can fit in a trip to the archives I could look for a possible marriage for James and Annie in the Byker Churches. Tyne and Wear Archives don't have them all but I could check the ones they do have.
If I can find a marriage for them I can make a note of how her first name is signed. I could make a copy with my own hand of how she writes and then photo and post this on here. You could perhaps make a comparison and let us know if signatures could possibly be one and the same! :D
If anyone can help with the names of which Churches may have been near Annie Reed in 1901 that would be helpful.
ADDED: Looking on FamilySearch James seems to have been in the St Michael Parish - I think I could try looking there and St Silas next time I am able to fit in a trip. Signature comparison might be able to make a stronger connection or completely refute the idea that this Annie may have been Cecil's one time partner.
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Hate to rain on the parade, but the only birth records I know of that will have a mother's/ informant's signature are civil registers.
Unless the birth record was issued by a local registrar fairly recently and they are one of the registrars who now scan the original register onto the cert paper, what you see will not be the signature of the informant.
If the source was the GRO then the scan is from their 'certified copy' of the original Register (which was retained by the local registrar) it does not have original signatures.
added sorry forgot to say, even if its a cert issued when the birth was registered. The informant signed the register, then the registrar hand wrote a certificate for the informant to take with them - again, no original signatures, even these are 'certified copies of an entry in the register'
Boo
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Oh drat!
Oh well, at least ☔ raining on the parade may have saved a fruitless trip to the archives. :-\ Thanks anyway Boo.
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Rats but you're right no signatures :(
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Still just playing about with ideas ..
On the off chance that Annie was a married woman and had married locally, freebmd shows only 8 Ann/Annie Reed marriages in Newcastle between 1880 and 1903 ..
It might be one of these who may be in the Heaton Cemetery registers at the end of the day.
Marriage locator gives Churches for five but shows in between places for 3.
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I think the Ann Reed who dies Newcastle, June qtr 1907, age 40, is the first one to try to identify.
There a number of Ann/Annie Reeds of the right age in 1901, but none seems to fit easily, most can be tracked to 1911.
One I can't find in 1901 has a baby baptised when living 7 doors away from Abbot Thomson and family in 1896, so she is worth tracking down. Reed is her married name, but still worth tracking down just to eliminate her.
William Reed age 25 (father - William Reed) marries Ann Connell age 23 (father Richard Connell), 20 Nov 1889, Byker St. Michael.
In 1891 : 202 Parker St., Byker,
William Reed, 25, Railway Porter, b. Willington,
Annie Reed, wife, 24, b. Spittal,
Selby D. Reed, son, 10m, b. Jarrow.
RG12/4215/132/31
Selby is Selby Douglas Reed, in lodgings in Byker 1911.
Other children are Margaret Johnson Reed, baptised 18 June 1893 at Byker St. Michael.
And William Reed, baptised at Byker St. Michael 17 June 1896. On the free search facility on D.R.O, parents abode is 94 Thornborough St. Byker, although William is not on the Electoral Roll there. Abbot Thompson is on the Electoral Roll at number 80.
William Reed jnr is living with an Aunt in 1911, but I can't find any of them in 1901.
Alan.
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Well, there is a lot to think about there. Thanks for these suggestions.
The 1907 one Milliepede linked to Ovington - isn't that the Hexham area? She isn't buried at Heaton either but I suppose she may have gone home for burial.
Will think about all this and get back on this tomorrow. I will likely run out of charge on Kindle soon and am not at home at the moment to recharge.
If my maths is correct it seems that Cecil Junior may have been conceived around 2 months after Elizabeth's death give or take. I will have to check at some point if 1939 census will show his birth date.
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There are two Ann Reed deaths in Northumberland in June 1907. One in Hexham District age 73, that will be the Ovington death, Ovington is in Hexham district. And the one in Newcastle age 40.
Alan
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Elizabeth is not at the family home with Cecil in 1901, so I suspect they were seperated. I checked somewhere near the start of this thread but couldn't find her in 1901. Maybe she was in hospital.
Alan.
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Cecil Abbot Thomson Jr. born 25 Jan 1903. Found on the 1939 register Occ. Plate helper shipyard
Wife Mary A Thomson b. 28 Oct 1902
Cecil A Thomson b. 25 Mar 1938
Living at 191 Parker Street
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Hi Alan,
I have been looking over the information which you supplied yesterday and agree that the Ann Reed who died in Newcastle 1907 needs to be identified. Thanks for researching all this background, which is very helpful.
As far as meeting criteria is concerned, this one certainly seems to be a suitable candidate for Cecil's partner Annie:
Reed surname
Evidence of having lived in close proximity to Cecil's family
Within suitable age bracket
Married woman
Appears to be no longer around by 1911
Thanks, Karytay, for supplying Cecil jnr's date of birth. This seems to suggest that Cecil and Annie were together either just after or possibly even before the death of Elizabeth.
I am on a run of nightshifts again, starting tonight but when I can next fit in a trip to the library I will certainly see if I can find out more.
It would be great if there was a mention of Cecil or the sons in any notices. Then again, if just for the sake of protocol she may only be referenced by the name of her legal husband or for diplomacy only brief details may be provided. Or no notice may have been placed at all. However, any burial record would likely provide home address where she may have died. Let's just hope that any address found can be linked to Cecil. :)
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Well, I'm afraid it's bad news .. I have been able to fit some time in at the library this afternoon to do a proper search for Ann. Unfortunately, there is no death notice. Also, I can't find a burial at any Newcastle Cemeteries .. ???
Perhaps she was buried at a Church .. I just don't know ..
I think there is a Walker Cemetery which is part of a Church (according to what I was once told at the archives) but I think this Church has retained their records.
She looks a quite promising lead but I think if your friend may at some point want to investigate further she may have to buy the certificate and ask the bereavement services to do a check for her burial. So unfortunately, as far as David's Mother is concerned 😟 she remains somewhat of a mystery.
However, I have managed to find Cecil's second wife's burial at Heaton Cemetery:
Entry: 34081
Mary Ann Thomson
Age 60
Death occurred at Northern General Hospital on 22 November 1931
Home address: 80 Corbridge Street, Byker (same address where Cecil died)
Burial Section J No 279
No death notice was placed.
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River Tyne Lass thanks for doing all this, taking time out during your busy working days. It is much appreciated. And thanks to the rest of you as well. I think all of you must stop for awhile until I can get my friend to look at all this. And get her to do as you suggested, RTL.
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You are welcome Karytay .. I just wish I had been able to find David's Mother today. I suspect when the marriage certificate arrives it will show that Cecil Abbott Thomson will be down as the Father. It is David's Mother who is proving to be the more elusive one.
After all this toing and froing with ideas about who Annie may be and what happened, my gut feeling is still that she died between 1905 and 1911 and is buried in Heaton Cemetery. Of course, this still could be totally wrong.
As for me, I think I will have to stop for a while as I am now off to nightshift and will be doing a run of them. Please let us know what friend thinks of all this when you have a chance to update her. Perhaps she might have some ideas of her own to add.
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As soon as I have had a chance to sit down with my friend and go through all what everyone has provided. Hoping it will jog her memory and I come back with something. I do not know long it will take. But will be back with updates.
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Stumbled across this Annie in 1901 living 22 Heaton Road Byker
John G Reed 46 travelling draper
Annie T Reed 38 born Newton on the Moor Northumberland
with children all born Newcastle
John T Reed 16
Tom G Reed 15
Annie R Reed 11
Arthur Reed 7
Constance M Reed 5
Gainsford Reed 3
Hector C Reed 1
Margaret Hockham 21 servant
Checked births for a couple of the children and mothers maiden name is Thompson so I wondered if this was our Annie it would make sense for her to put Reed as maiden name for the Thomson boys to differ the names.
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Death for husband John Gustard Reed travelling draper, same address, 22 April 1903 probate 30 June to Joanna Reed widow.
Is that Joanna meaning Annie or someone else.
Death for Annie Reed widow 4 April 1925 8 King Edwards Road Heaton probate to Thomas Gustard Reed tailor.
Marriage Jun 1883 Newcastle
Annie Thompson
John Gustard Reed
Family tree has the marriage 27 Jun at
Prudhoe Street Chapel Newcastle should it be of use
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Hi Karytay,
I was at the archives again recently so here is another marriage for your friend - this is for David's half sister:
St Michael, Byker
Entry 240
May 31at 1909
Lewis Montgomery Bryden & Eleanor Thomson
His age: 29. Her age: 22
Blacksmith
Bachelor & Spinster
His residence: (G--? Street?)
Her residence: Thornborough Street
Fathers: Samuel Bryden - Foreman Blacksmith
Cecil Abbott Thomson - Labourer
By Banns
Witnesses: William Lewis Taylor & Jessie Burns
There has been so much work having gone into this thread by several RootsChatters. I wish Tyne and Wear Archives had the St Lawrence records as if they had I think I would be checking there to see if David and Nina got married there. If possible it would be nice to be able to see this one through since so much time and effort has been invested in this already. Is it possible for anyone out there to check the St Lawrence records to see if David and Nina married there? If not, I think it might be time to call it a day and just leave it up to Karytay's friend to sort out getting the certificate one day - regarding David's marriage.
Even though this is not my thread, thank you to everyone for your imput. It is always nice to see the lengths RootsChatters will go to to try to help others. Thanks especially to Milliepede for this new potential lead. :)
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There has been so much work having gone into this thread by several RootsChatters. I wish Tyne and Wear Archives had the St Lawrence records as if they had I think I would be checking there to see if David and Nina got married there. If possible it would be nice to be able to see this one through since so much time and effort has been invested in this already. Is it possible for anyone out there to check the St Lawrence records to see if David and Nina married there? If not, I think it might be time to call it a day and just leave it up to Karytay's friend to sort out getting the certificate one day - regarding David's marriage.
The certificate was going to be ordered on the 9th October :-\
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800305.msg6594721#msg6594721
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I must say thank you to you all for all your hard work in helping me with this family. I am sorry it is taking so long to come up with the certificate that will finally tell us all that you all are on the right path. What can I say, except that my friend is a very busy woman. Hope she gets it before Christmas this year !
Thanks again
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Thanks for putting us in the picture with this one Karytay ..
Personally, I am not holding out any more hope at all that your friend will be looking to get the certificate this Christmas or perhaps any Christmas ..
An awful lot of work has gone into this thread but I tend to have the impression that your friend might just be more than happy to let this one sail off into the sunset.
Oh well, I think this is just one to chalk up to experience and to cut our losses and move on.
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I'll chip in one more potential Annie Reed. I wrote it down so I might as well type it up. At Addison Road, Heaton in 1901. Addison Road joined onto Shields Road Byker from the north, three streets away from Robinson Steet, where Cecil Abbot Thomson was living. Robinson Street joined onto Shields Road from the south.
1901 census, 83 & 85 Addison Road, Heaton.
Annie Reed, 25, Visitor, Single, Dress Maker, b.Bedlington.
RG13/4793/33/57
This Annie is with her mother and step father, James and Isabella Avery, in 1891. As Ann Avery, age 16, at Killingworth Colliery. In 1911 she is back with her parents as Ann Reed, Single, 35, Dressmaker. In 1881 she is Ann Reed Avery, age 5. She has 3 sisters who all have mothers maiden name Reed on the GRO.
Alan.
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Yes, you might as well Wolfie ... ;D ;)
I think there should be a 'Genealogists' Anonymous' group somewhere for people who just can't give up ..
I know I for one, would qualify .. ;D ;D ;D
I hope you see the funny side of this and are not offended ..
I do admire your tenacity, really .. :)
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But where did she die Wolfie ..?
No, don't tell me ..!!
Must resist!! Must resist!! ;D ;)
Amazing how many Annie Reed 's there seem to be and most of them seemed to live in Byker and near Cecil! ;D
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Hi RTL
I'm definitely not offended, I just don't like for us to be beaten. I will probably keep dipping back in if I see anything positive regarding Annie Reed. I don't think there can be any doubt that Cecil Abbot is David Thomsons father, but Annie Reed appears from nowhere then disappears. I like problems like that.
Alan
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Hi Wolfie,
I think you might be right and perhaps we should not be beaten on this one.
I agree with you in thinking that there is little doubt that Cecil Abbott Thomson is David's Father.
I think I was just feeling a little disappointed that it was starting to feel to me like we RootsChatters (including Karytay) were more interested in this thread than Karytay's friend. This was because of little feedback from friend on finds/leads and what with the goal posts seemingly keep shifting regarding the certificate due to friend being too busy.
However, I concede it may be hard to get a true impression of what is going on when we are only communicating on-line. Milliepede found the birth information for Cecil and David. Personally, I would have been delighted by this but there doesn't appear to be any feed back on this. Perhaps Karytay may not have told her friend about this yet though and this is why no acknowledgement has been conveyed by friend as yet? It might not be a lack of interest on own thread?
Wolfie, I am as intrigued as you are as to why Annie is there and then disappears. I also would like to know why they did not marry in a time when this would have been expected (parents of two children). I wonder if she was married to someone else or if her family did not approve of Cecil, or perhaps or vice versa.
I am also like you and some others on here that like this kind of a challenge. :)
When I am finished my run of nightshifts and brain more in gear (when less tired) I will have a good look at the leads you and Milliepede have presented and see what I might be able to check out at my end.
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Hi all, I spoke to my friend once again, she is exhausted. One of the woman that works for her is leaving for Australia. So now she is short staffed with others been sick or fired. So now she is doing the work of the others as well as her own and still trying to do the admin. As a government approved facility she has to write up reports for them on top of everything else.
I will be seeing her this weekend to discus making Christmas pageant costumes, the children are going to put on a show for their parents. I asked her please let us order the certificate quickly before starting anything else.
Lets hope it will finally be done.
And she thanks you all for your hard work. But cannot add any more info to what we already have.
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Hi
I came across these posts by chance. The nina Patterson you are talking about is my great aunt. Mabel, her sister, was my Nana. Harry and David are my mams cousins. I am not sure who is after this info and their relationship to Nina but I am sure my man can help answer many of your questions? Happy to help.
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Hi Lisle sent you a PM
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Hi karen
I will speak to my man today and get back to you.
Michelle
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Thanks Michelle
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Welcome to RootsChat Lisle66 :)
There are a lot of folk who have helped and are following this thread, please keep us updated to how you are getting on.
Regards
Sarah
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Cecil Abbott Thomson's baptism from family search
Name: Cecil Abbott
Event Type: Christening
Event Place: Byker St Michael, Northumberland, England
Christening Date: 20 May 1903
Father's Name: Cecil Abbott Thomson
Mother's Name: Annie Thomson
Digital Folder Number 103064052
Image Number 00137
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Hi
I am the great grandson of Dave Thomson... and have recently been researching my family history/ancestry. My great grandads history has never been clear, there were rumours he was born at Stirling army barracks.. and we know he was a Sargent in WW11 . Unfortunately he died just before i was born and although my dad (son of Harry) was close to his grandad, there was little discussion about his origins.
I’ve have stumbled, quite unbelievably, on this research thread and after reading all, I can only thank you for all of the hard work that has gone into this... I can not believe we now know Abbot/Cecil. Emotional throughout with my Granda Harry’s tribute to his mother Ninas death... it’s been amazing. I have immediately told my dad of this research and i know it will mean so much to him ..... just thank you !!! (I know this was a while ago and not sure anybody will see this - but needed to thank you all anyways )
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Welcome to Rootschat David, I see you have already discovered what a great resource it is :-)
This was a very long and involved thread, I'd advise clicking on "Print" at the top of the page, printing out a hard copy and / or highlighting the entire text and saving it to a text file on your pc.
Then go through it and sort out a timeline of the events - at that stage you can check it out and if there are any records that are missing that would confirm/ deny what we found, get copies of those to prove the conclusions we came to. If you are in the North East and can get to the archives a lot of the records are held there on microfilm.
I was involved in a small way to help unravel this and am really pleased you have found it and its helped you, as I am sure everyone else will be.
Boo
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Hi Boo
Thanks for your advice.. I will definitely print out a hard copy. For somebody that I’ve heard so much about and even named after, there is so little info about his history. I had nothing and despite getting back some way with other branches of the family (Nana Nina) .. was at a dead end with Dave’s parents. Amazing work!!
Cheers Boo
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Hi David just saw your post now. Pleased to meet you, I started the Thomson tree for a friend that lives next door to me. Her father was David Gordon your granddad's brother.
I am glad this thread was able to help you and if you need any more information let me know.
Karen
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Karytay
Just wondering, did you ever get that marriage certificate for David and Nina ?
Boo
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Hi Karen
You have done an amazing job! Can’t thank you and the guys on here enough. Yes, Uncle Dave (G) was my Granda Harry’s identical twin... they were characters!
I’ve been on to my parents and Aunty with your findings ... All are over the moon and very appreciative.
I’ve been doing my own research (just a total novice) but can get carried away and spend hours tracing people back before I even realise.
If I get stuck ... might just give you a shout.
Thanks again Karen
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Pleasure David. Just be warned, family tree story/genealogy is addictive ;D Once the bug bites that it! :D
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Karytay
Just wondering, did you ever get that marriage certificate for David and Nina ?
Boo
Yes, your friend was going to order it over a year ago!
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Hi Boo , Jen my friend did order the certificate she showed me the payment deduction but she never received it. Something went wrong some where, she never tried again. Maybe David will have a better chance of getting it, since he is in England.
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I must say I am quite surprised to read that your friend paid for a certificate which did not materialise and then seemingly did not attempt to chase this up.
Could the GRO not send a copy direct to their email under the circumstances, if a paper version has been lost in transit?
After so much work has been put into this thread by several of us (I, for one, spent a good bit of time on this at the library and archives), I was hoping your friend would have seen this through, as we were given to understand was going to happen. What a pity she seems to have waned in interest to the point of letting things go after paying for something she apparently never received.
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Hi River Tyne Lass, yes I am also rather disappointed. I was getting excited to have proof and to verify all that you and the others had found out. I have not worked on her tree since, I have just shelved it.