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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: agray1949 on Wednesday 12 September 18 16:47 BST (UK)

Title: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Wednesday 12 September 18 16:47 BST (UK)
I wonder if there is anyone who lives near Cullen who could possibly help me with an inscription on the gravestone of John Spence & Jean Wilson in Cullen Old Kirk Graveyard.
We were up there last week & I took some photo's of various graves there & various other graveyards.
I am now looking through the photo's to clarify the engraving & am not sure how old he was when he died.
He died on 31st March 1850
Libindx have his death as aged 64 but they also state that he was born in 1789 (which would make him 61)
Unfortunately the only part of my photo which is not clear is his age. I can make out the 6 but not the second number.
If anyone can have a look for me I can send the photo I have & also the location in the graveyard.
The headstone ref. as shown on Libindx is C(o)84
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 12 September 18 21:58 BST (UK)
Libindx have his death as aged 64 but they also state that he was born in 1789 (which would make him 61)
Actually they say his date of birth is c.1789 - in other words they don't claim to have a definite date of birth for him.

Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Thursday 13 September 18 09:58 BST (UK)
Thanks Forfarian, that is why I am hoping to find out what is inscribed on the headstone.
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: Flattybasher9 on Thursday 13 September 18 10:43 BST (UK)
Why not post a copy of your photograph and let us play with it.

Malky
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Thursday 13 September 18 11:10 BST (UK)
Thanks
I have just tried to attach the photo but have been told the attachment is too big (1.17MB) & the maximum size is 500KB.
Any advise on how I can send it.
Please
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Thursday 13 September 18 13:00 BST (UK)
I have attached the photo which Forfarian kindly resized.
Does anyone else think he was 64 years of age.
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: Flattybasher9 on Thursday 13 September 18 13:17 BST (UK)
Died 1870 aged 81.


Malky
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Thursday 13 September 18 13:21 BST (UK)
Malky ???
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Thursday 13 September 18 13:28 BST (UK)
I have re-checked my records & he is not in the 1851 Census, his wife is recorded as a farmers widow & also there is no record on Scotland's People for a death in 1870
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: Fordyce on Thursday 13 September 18 15:56 BST (UK)
agray1949, I agree that the age looks like 64. This implies he was born 1785/86. He is recorded as 55 in the 1841 census which is consistent. His death is recorded in the Preshome Catholic registers as 31 Mar 1850 (at Baads, Cullen) - annoyingly his entry is about the only one where no age is given!

His wife was born 1782/83 per 1851 census and MI, so a few years older.

Grandchildren were born/baptised as Catholics, and indeed Spences seemed to be mainly Catholic, so I wonder why the parents would be buried in the Old Kirkyard?

My interest was in their daughter Helen Spence who married John Geddes (no relation of mine) - the marriage was proclaimed in both the Parish Church and Preshome Chapel; their daughter Margaret Geddes married James Taylor Clark (who is a relation of mine) - they married in the Free Church.
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Thursday 13 September 18 16:43 BST (UK)
Thanks for everyones help. I have just heard from the Moray Burial Research Group that it is age 64 as shown on their photo much clearer. I have asked for a copy so will wait & see.
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 13 September 18 17:35 BST (UK)
If MBRG says 64, it's 64. They are very meticulous.
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: runmerry on Thursday 13 September 18 21:25 BST (UK)
I was at the library today and out of curiosity I looked at both the sources given in libindx.

The C(O)84 refers to the card index and his age on that is 61.

There is also misc. ref. to a book published in 1883 "The Church and Churchyard of Cullen" which has a list of the gravestone inscriptions in it.  No.98 is John Spence and the age is 64.

 I think I would go with the age in the book as it was published when the stone was not so old and therefore would have been clearer.

Regards

Jen 
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: runmerry on Thursday 13 September 18 21:34 BST (UK)
Also meant to add inscription in book

Erected in memory of John Spence, farmer, Baads, died 31 March 1850 aged 64
also of Jean Wilson his spouse who died 13 August 1862 aged 79

Jen
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 13 September 18 21:37 BST (UK)
The C(O)84 refers to the card index and his age on that is 61.
In 1978-1979 Moray Council had a Job Creation team go out and record all the inscriptions on all the stones in all the graveyards and cemeteries in Moray. That's the modern version of Moray, not the historic county of Moray, and it includes all of the historic county minus the parish of Cromdale, Inverallan and Advie, plus about two-thirds of Banffshire.

C(O) stands for Cullen Old and 84 is the number of the stone on the plan drawn by the team when they did the survey. There is a card index with a card for every stone, and the card has the actual inscription. All the names on all the cards are indexed on LIBINDX.

However it is known that errors occurred in the 1978-1979 survey, and the Moray Burial Grounds Research Group is going over all the burial grounds making more accurate records and bringing the records up to date.

Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Friday 14 September 18 16:21 BST (UK)
Thanks again to all who contributed special thanks to Forfarian  for the explanation at the end.
I reckon I can call it a day on this request as I have the information I was after.
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: Indiana.59 on Tuesday 30 July 19 17:20 BST (UK)
Libindx have his death as aged 64 but they also state that he was born in 1789 (which would make him 61)
Actually they say his date of birth is c.1789 - in other words they don't claim to have a definite date of birth for him.

He is 64 if you enlarge the photo you can just see the little - coming out of the back of the 4 <---
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Friday 09 August 19 16:29 BST (UK)
Hello folks
I am back on the trail of John Spence & thought I would ask for opinions on a slightly "left field" question.
It has been agreed that his age on the Headstone was 64 & the 1841 census gives him an age of 55.
Working on the principal that the 1841 census ages were rounded down to the next age that could mean that he could have been between 55 & 59 giving him a birth year between 1782 & 1786.
If their was an error on the gravestone,  were they sure about his age & could they read it to be certain.
So my question is that if there was an error & he was actually born in 1782 which would be closer to his wife's age there is an entry on S/P OPR's for a John Spens born 12/2/1782 at Morlach, Banffshire. Parents were John Spens & Helen Stewart.
Two of John & Jean's children were called John(1807) & Helen (1818).
Can anyone find an answer to prove this birth in 1782 wrong.
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Friday 09 August 19 16:53 BST (UK)
Cancel my last question.
There is a John Spence who died in 1871 at Mortlach age 89 which would most likely be the one who was born in 1782. And as we know the John I am looking for died in 1850.
So I am still none the wiser as to who his parents were.
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 09 August 19 18:46 BST (UK)
Yes, the one who died in Mortlach in 1871 was the son of Helen Stewart - his death doesn't state his father's given name. So he can be eliminated from your enquiries.

If he was listed as 55 in the 1841 census, which was taken on 7 June, and assuming that his age is accurate, he could have been born between 8 June 1781 and 7 June 1786.
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: agray1949 on Friday 09 August 19 19:00 BST (UK)
Thanks Forfarian
His gravestone indicated a birth of 1786 which matched with the census but I was trying to find his parents by widening the search pattern & the one I saw was a possibility which has now been discarded.
Title: Re: John Spence - Cullen Old Kirk
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 09 August 19 19:46 BST (UK)
His gravestone indicated a birth of 1786 which matched with the census but I was trying to find his parents by widening the search pattern & the one I saw was a possibility which has now been discarded.
If he died aged 64 on 31 March 1850, and his age was accurate, he is more likely to have been born in 1785 than in 1786 - any time between 1 April 1785 and 31 March 1786.

I think your problem is that the Roman Catholic records don't go back as far as that.

The Roman Catholic church at Preshome was built in 1789. It was the first post-Reformation Roman Catholic church to be openly built in Scotland after the official persecution of Roman Catholicism was relaxed, and the earlier records, if there ever were any, have not survived.