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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: WillowG on Wednesday 12 September 18 16:51 BST (UK)
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After starting a thread for the will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset 1530, and receiving so much kind help here, I have been trying to map out the different brances of the Aylmer family, as Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset, left a legacy to an Anne Aylmer. Aylmer was also the name of the famous tutor the Marquis' possibly even more famous granddaughter, Lady Jane Grey, the Nine Days' Queen.
In addition, a lady by the name of Frances Aylmer was in the household of Princess Mary Tudor together with the Marquis' daughter, Katherine Grey, Lady Maltravers. This Lady Katherine Grey was the aunt of Lady Jane Grey.
With the incredibly kind help and skills of the people here we have been able to get a closer look at the life of this gentlewoman here:
Will of Frances Aylmer 1540
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799215.0
In her will Frances Aylmer leaves a bequest to a child also named Frances Aylmer. My theory is that that child was the daughter of this Alexander Aylmer.
I hope very much that this will confirm that :)
I thought I had reached the end of the road in terms of Aylmer wills when I thanks to Bookbox found a whole lot more :) :) :)
The will of Alexander Aylmer can be found here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSN8-B34S-T?i=354&cat=278818
Thank you so much in advance.
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In the name of god Amen
The viijth daye of Octobare in the yeare of our
Lorde god yt CCCCC xlviij and in the
Seconde yeare of the most noble Reign of
our sovereign Lorde kinge Edwarde the sext
supreme hede of the church of Englande
and of Irelande I Alexander Aylemer of
Stratton in the cowntie of
beinge of hole mynde and in good memorye ..
What county is this in Willow?
The only 'Stratton' I can find is in Cornwall, and it doesn't say that.
(couldn't get onto familysarch site to check).
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Oh, thank you so much, Goldie! :) :D :)
Lol, yes, that is a bit of nightmare, isn't it? :) I had to register, then log in again after the site had told me that I had been logged in, and then the link worked :D
According to Ancestry, it's Stratton, Norfolk, England! More specifically it belongs to the collection of 'Wills Proved in the Consistory Court of Norwich and now Preserved in the District Probate Registry at Norwich' :)
Link to the info at Ancestry here (https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=USg397&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=ukprobate&gsln=Ayl*mer&cp=0&new=1&rank=1&redir=false&uidh=uho&gss=angs-d&pcat=36&fh=47&h=940309&recoff=3&fsk=BEFq368IgAAGSgAFQcw-61-&bsk=&pgoff=&ml_rpos=48).
Ancestry has it indexed, but not the actual will itself.
My undying gratitude to Bookbox for explaining how to navigate that :)
And my undying gratitude to you for transcribing this stuff! :) :D :)
It took me about two hours to feel reasonably certain that I had in fact found the right will, lololol, I couldn't make out a word!
Thank you so much again, Goldie, this is so wonderful! I appreciate it so very much :) :) :)
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Thanks for the County Willow.
So the first of those two words is 'Norff'.
Then the word after it, at the end of the line, is 'Esquire'.
I was trying to read those two words as all one! No wonder it didn't make sense. :)
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......................................................law-
ded be to god make and ordein this my present
Testament conteyning therein my last wyll in
maner and forme that folloeth First I bequeth
and Recomende my sowle to allmightie god
my bodye to be buryed in the church or church
yarde It(e)m I Reoike clerelye all other wylles
and Testamentes heretoafore made by me at
any tume Itm I wull that Anne my wyff shall
have all my landes and Ten(emen)ts lying in Tyvetshale
Saint Margaret in the cowntie of Norff -
called Intwoode Batemans and pullents close
with all the landes woodes pastures wayes medowes
pathes waters com(m)ons and fedinges as before is
reputed as p(ar)cell of the same with thappurtenaces
To have and to houlde to her duringw her natu-
rall lyff according as she is insured in by
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivetshall_St_Margaret
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Just a few minor enhancements to goldie's work in Snippet #3:
...forme that foloweth...
...I Revoke clerelye all...
...I woll that Anne my...
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That's my typo in Revoke HD! ......... 8)
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Stratton will be Long Stratton in Norfolk on the A140 just up the road from Tivetshall St Margaret. I believe Tivetshall St Margaret was mentioned in the previous Will you were researching.
regards
francoso
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Not sure if this is relevant but "INTWOOD (All Saints), a parish, in the union of Henstead, hundred of Humbleyard, E. division of Norfolk, 3½ miles (S. W.) from Norwich.
francoso
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Thank you so much, Goldie and HD!!! :) :D :) What would I have done without you? :) :) :) I continue to be absolutely stunned by the work that you do :)
Stratton will be Long Stratton in Norfolk on the A140 just up the road from Tivetshall St Margaret. I believe Tivetshall St Margaret was mentioned in the previous Will you were researching.
regards
francoso
Thank you so much!!! That is very interesting indeed. Tivetshall St Margaret seems to be pivotal here. Further strengthening the idea that this is the same family, or rather, the same branch of this family. Very, very interesting indeed.
Not sure if this is relevant but "INTWOOD (All Saints), a parish, in the union of Henstead, hundred of Humbleyard, E. division of Norfolk, 3½ miles (S. W.) from Norwich.
francoso
That is very relevant. This is actually a case where geography is very relevant indeed :) :) :)
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Again, not sure if or how relevant but:
archive.org: Calendar of Pre-reformation Wills Testaments Probates Admininistrations Bury St Edmunds
P16 No.150 Johannes Aylemere of Bury capellanus 12 Sept 1418
P74 No.207 p William Aylmer of Sylverle 23 Dec 1458
P98 No.449 John Aylmer of Thelnetham 22 Feb 1469 20 Mar 1469
I think Sylverle is in Cambridgeshire but not sure. Also Thelnetham is about 4 km north of the A143 Diss Road and 9 km west of Scole where the A140 intersects with the A143.
reagrds
francoso
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Also, p41 No.182 Nicholas Aylemer of Bury 12 Nov 1473 6 Jan 1473
francoso
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the lawe for her joynter And after hir decease
then I woll yt shall remayn unto will(ia)m my son(n)e
and heyre accordinge to my Uncle Thomas
Aylemers wyll. Also I give to will(ia)m my
sonne and heyre my mansion howse at Ca-
tington with all the Landes woodes medowes pasturs
with thappurtun(an)ces that was my fathers Robt
Aylemers To have and to houlde to him and to
his heyres of his bodye Lawfullye begotton
for ever And yf it channceth him to dye with
owte lawfull yssewe of his bodye begotton
than I woll yt shall remayn to Frannces my
dawghter and to hir heyres of hir bodye law-
fullye begotton And for lacke of suche yssewe
of hir bodye lawfullye begoton Then I woll
Some nice relationships given here Willow.
Love 'yssewe' = issue! :)
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the lawe for her joynter And after hir decease
then I woll yt shall remayn unto will(ia)m my son(n)e
and heyre accordinge to my Uncle Thomas
Aylemers wyll. Also I give to will(ia)m my
sonne and heyre my mansion howse at Ca-
tington with all the Landes woodes medowes pasturs
with thappurtun(an)ces that was my fathers Robt
Aylemers To have and to houlde to him and to
his heyres of his bodye Lawfullye begotton
for ever And yf it channceth him to dye with
owte lawfull yssewe of his bodye begotton
than I woll yt shall remayn to Frannces my
dawghter and to hir heyres of hir bodye law-
fullye begotton And for lacke of suche yssewe
of hir bodye lawfullye begoton Then I woll
Some nice relationships given here Willow.
Love 'yssewe' = issue! :)
!!!!!!!
My thoughts exactly!!! :) :D :) This is bingo and jackpot at the same time!!! How amazing! :) :) :)
It would appear that we were right about Frances Aylmer the Younger. Yes!!! I love it when that happens :) :D :)
I love 'yssewe' = issue! I think we have finally found something to rival 'fysyssion' ;D
This Thomas was in all likehood some relation of Sir Laurence, who had a father, brother and perhaps a son by that name!
Alexander Aylmer (d.1549), his wife Anne, his son William and his daughter Frances, his father Robert and his uncle Thomas (both deceased). Not bad! *whistles* :)
And we still have more will!
This is how it's done, other people who wrote wills in the 1400's-1500's, lololol :)
This is spectacular work, Goldie, thank you so much! :) :D :) I appreciate it so much! Breakthroughs/confirmations like these are always so fun! :) :) :)
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Also, p41 No.182 Nicholas Aylemer of Bury 12 Nov 1473 6 Jan 1473
francoso
Oh, this is a wonderful find!!! :) :D :) Thank you so much!
This must be the Nicholas Aylmer who married Cecily Hoo:
https://archive.org/stream/visitacionievisi32ryew#page/158/search/Aylmer
Castelyn's Manor
In 1364, Sir Thomas de St Omer of Brundale had it, and Alice, daughter of Petronel his wife, after married to Sir Will. de Hoo, Knt. and Eliz. their daughter then 12 years old, and after married to Tho. de Warine, were coheirs, and in the King's custody; and in 1372, Warine and his wife released all his right to Sir Thomas and his wife; see p. 76. In 1402, he released all his right in this manor calle Castelyn's
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Norfolk/Volume_5
Charter of Sir William and Alice de Hoo for Sir Roger de Pedewardyne, 1366
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/hoo.shtml
The great-great-grandparents of Cecily Hoo.
Thomas Hoo, 1st Baron Hoo and Hastings KG (c. 1396–1455) was a Knight of the Garter and English courtier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hoo,_Baron_Hoo_and_Hastings
The great-uncle of Cecily Hoo.
He was also the great-great-grandfather of Anne Boleyn and the great-grandfather of the Mary Coplay mentioned in Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset's will. Anne Boleyn was also mentioned in the will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset, but she has other claims to fame :)
Reference: C 241/156/65
Description: Debtor: Thomas de Hoo, knight [of Surrey, and held fees in Wartling and Socknersh in Foxearle Hundred, Sussex], and William de Hoo, his son, of Sussex. Creditor: William Gunthorpe, clerk. Amount: £300. Before whom: William de Walworth, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster.
When taken: 14/02/1373. First term: 24/06/1373. Last term: 24/06/1373. Writ to: Sheriff of Norfolk, Suffolk, Beds., Sussex, and Surrey. Sent by: William de Walworth, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster. Endorsement: Vicecomitibus Norff' Suff' Bed' Sussex, & Surr'. Coram Rege in Cancellaria Sua In Octabis sancti Iohannis Baptiste. Statut'.
Date: 1374 May 13
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9687842
The great-grandfather and grandfather of Cecily Hoo.
Reference: C 4/80/120
Description: Certificate of commissioners and interrogatory for Robert Aylmer on the alleged forgery of the will of William at Hoo
Date: 1450 Jan 1 - 1550 Dec 31
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9131665
Thank you so much again. This is really an invaluable find! :) :) :)
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The postings under the name francoso are not from me but are the work of someone interested in the families of Suffolk, Norfolk and Essex but who is a retiring sort of person. I am just the Postman.
Regards
francoso
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Again, not sure if or how relevant but:
archive.org: Calendar of Pre-reformation Wills Testaments Probates Admininistrations Bury St Edmunds
P16 No.150 Johannes Aylemere of Bury capellanus 12 Sept 1418
P74 No.207 p William Aylmer of Sylverle 23 Dec 1458
P98 No.449 John Aylmer of Thelnetham 22 Feb 1469 20 Mar 1469
I think Sylverle is in Cambridgeshire but not sure. Also Thelnetham is about 4 km north of the A143 Diss Road and 9 km west of Scole where the A140 intersects with the A143.
reagrds
francoso
Aylmers in Bury St. Edmunds are definitely of great interest! These are definitely our Aylmers, or a branch of them :)
Some of our Aylmers were definitely in Suffolk. Referrals to Tannington (spelt variously as Tanington, Tanyngton, Stanyngton) keeps cropping up.
Tannington in Suffolk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannington
Bury St. Edmunds in Suffolk
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_St._Edmunds
Thelnetham in Suffolk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelnetham
I think you are right about Sylverle :)
From Wikipedia - Ashley, Cambridgeshire
The modern village consists of the two ancient parishes of Ashley and Silverley.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley,_Cambridgeshire
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The postings under the name francoso are not from me but are the work of someone interested in the families of Suffolk, Norfolk and Essex but who is a retiring sort of person. I am just the Postman.
Regards
francoso
Then please thank them for me :) :) :)
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Snippets 7 & 8
yt shall remayn to my dowghter Brigett and
to hir heyres of hir bodye lawfullye begotton
And for lacke of such yssewe of hir bodye
lawfullye begotton Then I woll yt shall
remayn so from one Syster to an other accor-
dinge to ther age And acordinge to a fyne
that I levyd for the same afore the late Lorde
Bandwoyn by Thomas Mompesson, gent
George Presse gent and other Allso I woll
that Anne my wyff shall have all my
howsehoulde Stuff at Tatington ymmedi-
atlye after my decease saving onlye a bed and
a bedsted a boulster a payer of blankettes a
payre of shetes which I woll my dowghter
Thetfourth shall have ymmediatlye after
my decease And I woll that Anne my wyff
shall have .......
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Baldwin_(judge) ?
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Person of Interest duly thanked.
Another of the family:
Calendar of Suffolk Wills PCC: p29 Hadleigh 1546 Quintyne Aylemer (with just single word 'Joane').
The Postman
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Snippets 7 & 8
yt shall remayn to my dowghter Brigett and
to hir heyres of hir bodye lawfullye begotton
And for lacke of such yssewe of hir bodye
lawfullye begotton Then I woll yt shall
remayn so from one Syster to an other accor-
dinge to ther age And acordinge to a fyne
that I levyd for the same afore the late Lorde
Bandwoyn by Thomas Mompesson, gent
George Presse gent and other Allso I woll
that Anne my wyff shall have all my
howsehoulde Stuff at Tatington ymmedi-
atlye after my decease saving onlye a bed and
a bedsted a boulster a payer of blankettes a
payre of shetes which I woll my dowghter
Thetfourth shall have ymmediatlye after
my decease And I woll that Anne my wyff
shall have .......
Thank you so much, Goldie!!! :) :D :) This will continues to be pure gold! There we have Bridgit/Brigett! :) :) :)
And 'my dowghter Thetfourth'!!!
For an embarrassingly long while there, I thought, 'That's a strange Christian name'. *facepalm*
Of course, he must be talking about his daughter Frances again!
Frances Aylmer, daughter of Alexander Aylmer of Tanington in Suffolk, married to Christopher Thetford of Titleshall in Norfolk.
https://archive.org/stream/visitacionievisi32ryew#page/280/search/Aylmer
https://archive.org/stream/visitationoflond17howa#page/n289/search/Thetford
(Let me know if you think I am being hideously wrong about that.)
This would mean that Frances Aylmer the Younger would have to have been a little bit older than I had previously assumed, if she were already married in 1549.
But, of course, she could have been 10-12 in 1540 when Frances Aylmer the Elder wrote about her in her will and mentioned her bringing-up, and still have been a child.
A birth year of 1528 would have made her 21 in 1549, for example.
Of course, it is a bit odd that the testator first refers to her by her Christian name of Frances, and then as 'his daughter Thetford', and without pointing out the connection between the two, but hey, that could just be how these people rolled.
We are definitely on the right track here :) This is very exciting!
'Tatyngton' - I believe this is another spelling of Tannington - specific perhaps to this time and place, or even to this particular family, because it keeps cropping up in connection with them, and often interchangeably with people described as being of or from Tannington.
And acordinge to a fyne that I levyd for the same afore the late Lorde Bandwoyn by Thomas Mompesson, gent George Presse gent and other
This is very intriguing! I think you are right about that being Judge John Baldwin, Goldie, but what in the world could the fine(?) have been about?
Thank you so much again, Goldie :) :) :) This is really fun! I do so love seeing our theories confirmed :) :D :)
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Person of Interest duly thanked.
Another of the family:
Calendar of Suffolk Wills PCC: p29 Hadleigh 1546 Quintyne Aylemer (with just single word 'Joane').
The Postman
Thank you so much to the both of you again! (To the retiring sort of person for the research, and to you for posting :) )
The wills of widows, especially remarried widows, are often of particular interest, because they are very concerned about willing things to their children and often mentions loads of grandchildren too.
I found the referral number on Ancestry, so I think we will be able to take a closer look at Joane! :) :D :)
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Snippets 7 & 8 "And I will my daughter Thetfourth ... ". Is this the married name of the daughter ? Is it meant to be the Thetforth family ? This family seems to have been around West Herling (West Harling), Snitterton (Snetterton), and Thetford.
Of course, I may be totally off the track !
francoso
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Snippet #9
...shall have the kepinge of my cofer of evidence
duringe hir naturall lyff Allso I woll that
Anne my wyff shall have my myll at
Tatington To have and to houlde to hir duringe
hir naturall lyff And so after hir lyff the
same to remayn to my sonne will(ia)m and his
heyres Allso I give to my dowghter Brigett
my greate bede and bedsted with all the...
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Snippet #10
...parell that longe to yt And the grete chest colerd
redde that was my uncles Thomas Aylemers
ymmediatlye after the decease of Anne my
wyff Allso I woll that all my howsehoulde
Stuff after the decease of Anne my wyff be
equallye devided amongest my dowghters
And my dowghter Thetfourth to have hir...
parell = apparell
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And 'my dowghter Thetfourth'!!!
For an embarrassingly long while there, I thought, 'That's a strange Christian name'. *facepalm*
Of course, he must be talking about his daughter Frances again!
(Let me know if you think I am being hideously wrong about that.)
You are not wrong. This is a normal way to reference a married daughter.
And acordinge to a fyne that I levyd for the same afore the late Lorde Bandwoyn by Thomas Mompesson, gent George Presse gent and other
This is very intriguing! I think you are right about that being Judge John Baldwin, Goldie, but what in the world could the fine(?) have been about?
It probably refers to a fine (final agreement) in the Court of Common Pleas, which was a method by which land could be conveyed from one person (or persons) to another.
See the explanation here: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mq9/
Further information is here: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/index.shtml
By the way, there are a few records of Aylmer Feet of Fines on this most useful site here:
http://search.freefind.com/find.html?pageid=r&id=91886320&query=aylmer&ics=1&fr=10
These records may not go as late as the one referred to in the will, and not all counties are covered.
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In relation to the judge, it is quite acceptable to read his surname as: Baudwoyn
It's possible that the third last letter could be an e of form similar to that in Brigett at the top of the snippet.
This would give: Baudweyn
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Snippets 7 & 8 "And I will my daughter Thetfourth ... ". Is this the married name of the daughter ? Is it meant to be the Thetforth family ? This family seems to have been around West Herling (West Harling), Snitterton (Snetterton), and Thetford.
Of course, I may be totally off the track !
francoso
Oh, no, you are entirely correct! Christopher Thetford of Titleshall in Norfolk, the son of John Thetford of Catishall and Thomazine daughter of John Thwaites of Hardingham in Norfolk, married Frances Aylmer, the daughter of 'Alexander Aylmer of Tanington in Suffolk'.
That must be this Frances Aylmer, and this Alexander Aylmer :)
Christopher Thetford and Frances Aylmer had loads of children: Jacob, Lancelott, Roger, Francis, John, who married Jaell Bourne, Andrew and Christopher.
This must be the Thetford family that you are referring too! :)
Frances's sister, Bridgit or Brigett, also mentioned in the will, apparently married a Stephen Rookwood or Rockood.
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In relation to the judge, it is quite acceptable to read his surname as: Baudwoyn
It's possible that the third last letter could be an e of form similar to that in Brigett at the top of the snippet.
This would give: Baudweyn
Does this mean that you think it could be Judge John Baldwin too, HD?
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And 'my dowghter Thetfourth'!!!
For an embarrassingly long while there, I thought, 'That's a strange Christian name'. *facepalm*
Of course, he must be talking about his daughter Frances again!
(Let me know if you think I am being hideously wrong about that.)
You are not wrong. This is a normal way to reference a married daughter.
And acordinge to a fyne that I levyd for the same afore the late Lorde Bandwoyn by Thomas Mompesson, gent George Presse gent and other
This is very intriguing! I think you are right about that being Judge John Baldwin, Goldie, but what in the world could the fine(?) have been about?
It probably refers to a fine (final agreement) in the Court of Common Pleas, which was a method by which land could be conveyed from one person (or persons) to another.
See the explanation here: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mq9/
Further information is here: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/index.shtml
By the way, there are a few records of Aylmer Feet of Fines on this most useful site here:
http://search.freefind.com/find.html?pageid=r&id=91886320&query=aylmer&ics=1&fr=10
These records may not go as late as the one referred to in the will, and not all counties are covered.
This is super-interesting, and something I had never known before! So this was a simpler (or the only?) way of transferring/selling property?
Previously I had thought that all of the fines and suits were a signal of people being quarrelsome! :)
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Oh, thank you so much, HD, great work as always!!! :) :D :) What in the world would I have done without you guys? :) :-* :) Gotten nowhere with this family, certainly! :)
Snippet #9
...shall have the kepinge of my cofer of evidence
This sounds vaguely sinister again, but in view of the above, perhaps he simply means his chest of important papers? :)
And the grete chest colerd redde that was my uncles Thomas Aylemers
I loved this :) I love these little reminders that these were real people.
a bed and a bedsted a boulster a payer of blankettes a payre of shetes which I woll my dowghter Thetfourth shall have
I loved this too :) I forgot to post it earlier!
Thank you so much again! I am learning so much about these people, and about these times! :) :) :)
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parte Allso I woll that the fyve Score powndes
to be payed by Christofer Thetfourth my sone
in lawe for my maner called Boylandes in
Tyvetshale in the countie of Norff shall
go unto the mariage of my five dowghters
that ys to saye Bregett Elisabeth Honor Ursula
and Mary equallye to be devided amongest
them Itm I woll that everye of my said dowghters
receyve this my bequest at the daye of their
severall mariage or ellys at the age of xx th
yeres And yshat fortune anye of my said fyve
dowghters to decease before the she or thei shall
Is that really 'yshat' HD? :) (too early in the morning!)
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Is that really 'yshat' HD? :) (too early in the morning!)
...And yfit fortune... = ...And if it fortune...
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Does this mean that you think it could be Judge John Baldwin too, HD?
It means I support the interpretation that the reference is to a legal official named Baldwin. I haven't researched the matter further so have no opinion on whether it is John or another Baldwin.
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This sounds vaguely sinister again, but in view of the above, perhaps he simply means his chest of important papers? :)
I agree that's likely to be his meaning.
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This is super-interesting, and something I had never known before! So this was a simpler (or the only?) way of transferring/selling property?
It was one way of transferring property, but not a particularly simple one.
They didn't have a system of Land Titles as we do now, and their ability to transfer land was limited by historical grants which restricted the land to heirs or heirs male of the original grantee - known as entails.
This was one method by which entails could be broken and ownership made relatively secure.
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Is that really 'yshat' HD? :) (too early in the morning!)
...And yfit fortune... = ...And if it fortune...
What's that odd 'squiggle' between the 'f' of 'yf' and the 'i' of 'it? :-\
Some other 'f's in this piece but they seem to be without that squiggle - 'fyve', 'Norff', and even the one in the middle of the word 'before' in the line below.
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What's that odd 'squiggle' between the 'f' of 'yf' and the 'i' of 'it? :-\
Some other 'f's in this piece but they seem to be without that squiggle - 'fyve', 'Norff', and even the one in the middle of the word 'before' in the line below.
It's just a different form of the f; a form which was typically used at the end of words.
Some clear examples can be seen in the earlier snippets.
In Snippet #6:
...And yf it channceth...
...yssewe of his bodye...
...heyres of hir bodye...
In Snippet #10:
...decease of Anne...
See also the examples here:
https://www.english.cam.ac.uk/ceres/ehoc/alphabets/minuscules/f.html
ADDED:
Norff in snippet #11 does have the extra squiggle on the second f.
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Hi Willow, earlier, on p.3 of these comments, you mentioned Catelyn's Manor in https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Norfolk/Volume_5
If you scroll down to STRATTON and numeral [188] on LHS, 4th para.
"Sigebert King of the East-Angles, on his erection of the bishoprick, gave the southern part of the town to Felix, the first Bishop of the East-Angles, and so it became part of the bishoprick; and in the Confessor's time, Bishop Ailmer held it as such, when there were 2 carucates in demean, 7 villeins, 6 bordars and an half, (that is, half the services of one bordar,) 26 socmen, and 12 freemen, whose rents and services were valued at 20s. per annum; .... "
Would this be an earlier ancestor ? Maybe the first at Stratton (Long-Stratton) ?
francoso
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What's that odd 'squiggle' between the 'f' of 'yf' and the 'i' of 'it? :-\
Some other 'f's in this piece but they seem to be without that squiggle - 'fyve', 'Norff', and even the one in the middle of the word 'before' in the line below.
It's just a different form of the f; a form which was typically used at the end of words.
Some clear examples can be seen in the earlier snippets.
In Snippet #6:
...And yf it channceth...
...yssewe of his bodye...
...heyres of hir bodye...
In Snippet #10:
...decease of Anne...
See also the examples here:
https://www.english.cam.ac.uk/ceres/ehoc/alphabets/minuscules/f.html
ADDED:
Norff in snippet #11 does have the extra squiggle on the second f.
Thanks HD. I'll look out for it.
I think it's because in this last one, there is a gap between the stroke of the 'f' and the downwards curly 'squiggle'. In most of the other examples, the squiggle is more joined to the stroke of the 'f', making more of a definite whole for the letter. Hope that makes sense. :)
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parte Allso I woll that the fyve Score powndes
to be payed by Christofer Thetfourth my sone
in lawe for my maner called Boylandes in
Tyvetshale in the countie of Norff shall
go unto the mariage of my five dowghters
that ys to saye Bregett Elisabeth Honor Ursula
and Mary equallye to be devided amongest
them Itm I woll that everye of my said dowghters
receyve this my bequest at the daye of their
severall mariage or ellys at the age of xx th
yeres And yshat fortune anye of my said fyve
dowghters to decease before the she or thei shall
... Honestly, I just can't with these people! Here one thinks that they have listed all of their children in a seemly fashion, and then they just go, 'And oh, by the way, I have four more.'
For shame, people of the 1400's and 1500's. I hope you know that we are judging you from afar.
Seriously, though, thank you so much for all of your hard work, Goldie and HD :) :-* :) I am enjoying this immensely. And I am just so utterly impressed. This is fantastic work.
And we have Christopher Thetford! I love it when people we have from other sources crop up in another source :)
Frances appears to be the one who did best for herself. Perhaps the bequests from the other will helped her? :) :) :) She appears to have been her father's favourite as well.
Seriously, a few good parenting classes would not have gone amiss here!
Thank you so much again! :) :D :) Your help and time is so very much appreciated.
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This is super-interesting, and something I had never known before! So this was a simpler (or the only?) way of transferring/selling property?
It was one way of transferring property, but not a particularly simple one.
They didn't have a system of Land Titles as we do now, and their ability to transfer land was limited by historical grants which restricted the land to heirs or heirs male of the original grantee - known as entails.
This was one method by which entails could be broken and ownership made relatively secure.
This is so very fascinating. Thank you so much :) :) :)
I know that those entails caused a lot of frustration. I was not actually aware that they could be broken, so this is incredibly interesting!
I went through those fines you posted in the link, and while the following two are of an earlier generation of Aylmers I thought them very interesting indeed:
CP 25/1/88/77, number 219.
County: Hertfordshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: Two weeks from St Hilary, 14 Edward III [27 January 1340].
Parties: William de Hoo of Walden' Abb'tis, querent, and John atte Welle of Walden' Abb'tis, chaplain, deforciant.
Property: 6 messuages, 1 mill, 2 carucates of land, 10 acres of meadow, 10 acres of pasture, 20 acres of wood, 8 shillings and 9 pence of rent and a rent of 2 geese inWalden' Abb'tis and Kemyton'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: William has acknowledged the tenements to be the right of John, as those which John has of his gift.
For this: John has granted to William the tenements and has rendered them to him in the court, to hold to William, of the chief lords for the life of William. And after the decease of William the tenements shall remain to William, son of the same William, and Pernel, daughter of Thomas Aylmar of Offeleye, and the heirs of the body of William, to hold of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, successive remainders (1) to John, brother of the same William, son of William, and the heirs of his body, (2) to Philip, brother of the same John, brother of William, and the heirs of his body and (3) to the right heirs of the aforesaid William de Hoo.
Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: William de Hoo, John atte Well, Thomas Aylmer, Pernel Aylmer, John de Hoo, Philip de Hoo
Places: St Pauls Walden, Kimpton, Offley
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_88_77.shtml
CP 25/1/87/57, number 157.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Hertfordshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: The day after St John the Baptist, 7 Edward II [25 June 1314].
Parties: Thomas Aylmar of Offeleye and Alice, his wife, querents, and Richard de Eycote, the vicar of the church of Offeleye, deforciant.
Property: 1 messuage and 3 and a half acres of land in Offeleye.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Thomas and Alice have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of Richard, as those which he has of their gift.
For this: Richard has granted to Thomas and Alice the tenements and has rendered them to them in the court, to hold to Thomas and Alice and the heirs of Alice, of the chief lords for ever.
Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: Thomas Aylmer, Alice Aylmer, Richard de Eycote
Places: Offley
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_87_57.shtml
CP 25/1/90/96, number 2.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Hertfordshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: Three weeks from St Michael, 50 Edward III [20 October 1376]. And afterwards the day after All Souls, 1 Richard [II] [3 November 1377].
Parties: William de Hoo, knight, and Eleanor, his wife, querents, and Thomas de Hoo, knight, and Isabel, his wife, deforciants.
Property: The manor of Offeleye and Cokerno.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Thomas and Isabel have acknowledged the manor to be the right of William, and have rendered it to William and Eleanor in the court, to hold to William and Eleanor and the heirs of William, of the chief lords for ever.
For this: William and Eleanor have given them 100 marks of silver.
Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: William de Hoo, Eleanor de Hoo, Thomas de Hoo, Isabel de Hoo
Places: Offley, Cockernhoe (in Offley)
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_90_96.shtml
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Hi Willow, earlier, on p.3 of these comments, you mentioned Catelyn's Manor in https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Norfolk/Volume_5
If you scroll down to STRATTON and numeral [188] on LHS, 4th para.
"Sigebert King of the East-Angles, on his erection of the bishoprick, gave the southern part of the town to Felix, the first Bishop of the East-Angles, and so it became part of the bishoprick; and in the Confessor's time, Bishop Ailmer held it as such, when there were 2 carucates in demean, 7 villeins, 6 bordars and an half, (that is, half the services of one bordar,) 26 socmen, and 12 freemen, whose rents and services were valued at 20s. per annum; .... "
Would this be an earlier ancestor ? Maybe the first at Stratton (Long-Stratton) ?
francoso0
That is indeed very possible! Let me dig a little and see what I can find :) Thank you so much!
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my Uncle Thomas Aylemers wyll. Also I give to will(ia)m my sonne and heyre my mansion howse at Catington with all the Landes woodes medowes pasturs with thappurtun(an)ces that was my fathers Robt Aylemers
I am wondering if we here have the answer to something that has puzzled me exceedingly, namely the cases below:
Reference: C 1/460/19
Short title: Aylmere v Elys.
Description: Plaintiffs: Thomas and Robert Aylmere, gentlemen, sons of Elizabeth Aylmere, sister of John at Wood, gentleman. Defendants: William Elys of Attlebridge, surviving feoffee to uses.
Subject: Manors and lands in East and West Barsham and Houghton devised by the will of the said John. (Annexed is an interpleader by Henry Fermour). Norfolk.
Date: 1518-1529
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7471516
Reference: C 1/378/20
Short title: Aylmere v Elys.
Description: Plaintiffs: Thomas and Robert, sons of Elizabeth Aylmere, gentlemen, and nephews of John at Wood, of East Barsham, gentleman. Defendants: William Elys, feoffee to uses. Subject: Refusal to sell manors and lands in East and West Barsham and Houghton, as directed by the said John's will, on the death of Margaret, his wife. Norfolk
Date: 1515-1518
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7468913
I am wondering if these are the same Thomas and Robert Aylmer. Then we have some information about their mother and her kin.
We have previously discussed the possibility that Edmund Aylmer, Roger Aylmer and Thomas Aylmer, mentioned together in about 1486, could be brothers.
'Plaintiffs: Edmund Aylmer, esquire. Defendants: William Paston. Subject: Detention of bonds between Roger and Thomas Aylmer and complainant of the one party, and Harry Straunge, Thomas Drury, and John Sharnburgh, of the other.'
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7452975
In a document over Essex fines that we have looked at before, but without me checking all spellings, we find:
Laurence Ailmer, John Ailmer and Thomas Ailmer mentioned together in 1488.
'1488 [...] 4 Henry VII County of Essex [...] 33. Mich. Laurence Ailmer, John Ailmer, Thomas Ailmer, John Barley, Robert Godewyn and William Hampton, pl. Richard Pake and Elizabeth his wife, def. 1 messuage, 24 acres of land, 3 acres of meadow and 18d. rent in Eisonham. Def. quitclaimed to pl. and the heirs of Laurence. Warranty as in 10. Cons. 201.'
http://esah1852.org.uk/images/pdf/ffines/F1400000.pdf
I am wondering if they could be brothers also.
We know that Sir Laurence Aylmer was the son of Thomas Aylmer of Ellesnam in Essex, and that he also had a brother named Thomas Aylmer.
Could the John Ailmer mentioned above be brother of Sir Laurence and Thomas Aylmer?
Could we here have the father (or grandfather?) of Bishop John Aylmer, whose father is said to have been called John?
Could Sir Laurence's brother Thomas Aylmer have married Elizabeth de Wood and the brothers Robert and Thomas have been their children?
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so fortune to marye or ellye to accomplish
their full age of Twentie yeares Then I woll
the Survyver or Survyvers shall enyoye
hir or there parte so deceased evenlye amongest
them equallye to be devided And yf yt so fortune
I woll that my dawghter Thethourth have hir
parte and be a p(ar)taker accordinge to the parte
so to be devided Allso I orden and make Anne
my wyff my hole Executrix In wytnes herein
is conteyned my Testament and Last wyll
Robert Sclater clearke and Andrewe Thetforth
Alexandre Aylemer
You'd have expected that word on he first line to say
'or ellse', but it's a 'y' instead of an 's'.................. ?
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You'd have expected that word on he first line to say
'or ellse', but it's a 'y' instead of an 's'.................. ?
Goldie, that word is actually ellys = else (as you thought it should be).
The last letter is yet another style of s, typically found in end-of-word positions.
There are others in the same snippet - in yeares on the next line and wytnes on the last line.
It's very easily confused with e.
See the second and third examples on the last line here:
https://www.english.cam.ac.uk/ceres/ehoc/alphabets/minuscules/s.html
Just one other minor suggestion - the last word on the third-last line is part(es). It's the -es brevigraph again.
ADDED:
In Snippet 13, line 4, it is: ...hir or thers parte so deceased...
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Here are two cases in Common Pleas in which Alexander Aylmer is the executor of Thomas Aylmer, of Tivetshall St Margaret. The relationship between them is not given.
Hilary term 1531
f 710
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1068/aCP40no1068fronts/IMG_0710.htm
Suff. Christopher Jenney, of Great Cressyngham Magna, Norf, esq, summoned to answer Thomas Asty, clerk; and Alexander Aylmer, gent, executors of Thomas Aylmer, of Tybityshale, gent. Debt of 20 pounds.
Hilary term 1536
f 2364
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1088/aCP40no1088fronts/IMG_2364.htm
Suff. William Aldred, of Denyngton, yeoman, summoned to answer Alexander Aylmer, gent, executor of Thomas Aylmer, of Tibytishale St Margaret, esq. Debt of 10 pounds.
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Thank you so much, Goldie and HD! :) :D :) This is absolutely beautiful work!!! I am so unbelievably grateful! :) :) :)
Andrewe Thetforth
This must be Andrew Thetford, the brother of Christopher Thetford, son-in-law of the testator!
https://archive.org/stream/visitacionievisi32ryew#page/280/search/Aylmer
Frances does appear to have been the favourite ;)
Thank you so much for all the effort and the wonderful work you have put into the transcription of this will :) :D :) I honestly don't know how you do it :) :-* :)
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Here are two cases in Common Pleas in which Alexander Aylmer is the executor of Thomas Aylmer, of Tivetshall St Margaret. The relationship between them is not given.
Hilary term 1531
f 710
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1068/aCP40no1068fronts/IMG_0710.htm
Suff. Christopher Jenney, of Great Cressyngham Magna, Norf, esq, summoned to answer Thomas Asty, clerk; and Alexander Aylmer, gent, executors of Thomas Aylmer, of Tybityshale, gent. Debt of 20 pounds.
Hilary term 1536
f 2364
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1088/aCP40no1088fronts/IMG_2364.htm
Suff. William Aldred, of Denyngton, yeoman, summoned to answer Alexander Aylmer, gent, executor of Thomas Aylmer, of Tibytishale St Margaret, esq. Debt of 10 pounds.
Ooh, this is interesting!
If it is the same Thomas Aylmer as below, we now know that Alexander Aylmer's uncle Thomas Aylmer died in or before 1531 :)
Short title: Aylmer v Wygmore.
Plaintiffs: Alexander, nephew and heir of Thomas Aylmer, gentleman.
Defendants: Robert Wygmore.
Subject: Detention of deeds relating to messuages and land in Tivetshall.
Norfolk.
2 documents
Date: 1532-1538
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7479310
I have two Thomas Aylmers:
'one Thomas Aylmer, of Norwich, grocer; whose last will bare date 1500; who therein left a legacy to his aunt, Margaret Parker: which Margaret seems to have been grandmother to Matthew Parker, Queen Elizabeth's first and most worthy and well-deserving and learned Archbishop of Canterbury.'
https://archive.org/stream/historicalcollec00stryuoft#page/n149
Thomas Aylmer, died 1518, and wife Alys, with seven sons and four daughters, buried in Harlow in Essex.
'Fittings—Brasses: In N. transept, mounted on boards—(1) inscription lost, small figures of man in armour with wife, c. 1430; (2) of Thomas Aylmer, 1518, and Alys, his wife, small figures of man in civil dress, with wife, seven sons and four daughters, and shield of arms; (3) of [William Sumner, 1559] figure in civil dress, inscription lost; ' - https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/essex/vol2/pp113-116
But none of them quite fits ???
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Snippet 15
Probatum fuit hu(ius)mo(d)i Testamentum apud
Norwicum Coram Officiali principali
Curie Cons(istorialis) ib(ide)m Auc(torita)te Illustrissimi
D(omi)ni nostri Reg(is) Edwardi Sexti &c primo die
mensis Julij Anno D(omi)ni mill(es)imo quinge(ntesim)o
quadragesimo nono Regni vero dicti Illustri(ssi)mi
D(omi)ni nostri Reg(is) Anno Tertio Et com(m)issa fuit
Snippet 16
Adm(in)istratio bonorum &c Executrici in d(i)c(t)o
Testamento no(m)i(n)ate de bene et fideliter Ad-
m(ini)strando bona et persolvendo debita et
legata iux(ta) ratam et vires Inventorij bono-
rum &c in debita iur(is) forma iurate &c.
This will was proved at Norwich before the Principal Official of the Consistory Court in that place, by the authority of our most illustrious Lord King Edward the Sixth etc., on the first day of the month of July in the year of the Lord one thousand five hundred and forty nine, that is, in the third year of the reign of our said most illustrious Lord the King; and administration of the goods etc. was granted to the executrix named in the said will, to well and faithfully administer the goods and complete the payment of debts and legacies according to the proportions and powers of the inventory of goods etc., sworn in due form of law etc.
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Snippet 15
Probatum fuit hu(ius)mo(d)i Testamentum apud
Norwicum Coram Officiali principali
Curie Cons(istorialis) ib(ide)m Auc(torita)te Illustrissimi
D(omi)ni nostri Reg(is) Edwardi Sexti &c primo die
mensis Julij Anno D(omi)ni mill(es)imo quinge(ntesim)o
quadragesimo nono Regni vero dicti Illustri(ssi)mi
D(omi)ni nostri Reg(is) Anno Tertio Et com(m)issa fuit
Snippet 16
Adm(in)istratio bonorum &c Executrici in d(i)c(t)o
Testamento no(m)i(n)ate de bene et fideliter Ad-
m(ini)strando bona et persolvendo debita et
legata iux(ta) ratam et vires Inventorij bono-
rum &c in debita iur(is) forma iurate &c.
This will was proved at Norwich before the Principal Official of the Consistory Court in that place, by the authority of our most illustrious Lord King Edward the Sixth etc., on the first day of the month of July in the year of the Lord one thousand five hundred and forty nine, that is, in the third year of the reign of our said most illustrious Lord the King; and administration of the goods etc. was granted to the executrix named in the said will, to well and faithfully administer the goods and complete the payment of debts and legacies according to the proportions and powers of the inventory of goods etc., sworn in due form of law etc.
Thank you so much, Bookbox!!! :) :D :) This is stellar work! I am continously so impressed with your work :) :) :)
Norwich, 1st of July 1549, executrix his wife Anne :)
So he passed away sometime between the 8th of October 1548 and the 1st of July 1549.
This was really great work!
Thank you so much again!!! :) This is fantastic! I am so grateful for your help :) :D :)
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Hi Willow, earlier, on p.3 of these comments, you mentioned Catelyn's Manor in https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Norfolk/Volume_5
If you scroll down to STRATTON and numeral [188] on LHS, 4th para.
"Sigebert King of the East-Angles, on his erection of the bishoprick, gave the southern part of the town to Felix, the first Bishop of the East-Angles, and so it became part of the bishoprick; and in the Confessor's time, Bishop Ailmer held it as such, when there were 2 carucates in demean, 7 villeins, 6 bordars and an half, (that is, half the services of one bordar,) 26 socmen, and 12 freemen, whose rents and services were valued at 20s. per annum; .... "
Would this be an earlier ancestor ? Maybe the first at Stratton (Long-Stratton) ?
francoso0
That is indeed very possible! Let me dig a little and see what I can find :) Thank you so much!
The is the result of my research into Bishop Ailmer:
Sedgeford in Norfolk - Besides the lordship that Guert had, from the tenures abovementioned, it appears that Agelmar or Aylmer Bishop of Elmham, had also a considerable manor in this town and Frenge, in the reign of King Edward: he was brother to Archbishop Stigand, was a married prelate, had many lordships in lay fee, as his own inheritance; some of them he gave to Bury abbey, and that of Blofield, which he had as a portion with his wife, before he was Bishop, to his own see, and probably that of this town, which he had till the year 1070, when being deprived, this lordship, with that of Frenge, we find possessed at the survey by William Beaufoe, late chancellor to King William, and then Bishop of Thetford, to whom the said King had granted the lordship of Guert, which he then also held, and on his death, granted it to his see for ever.
An Essay Towards a Topographical History of the County of Norfolk by Francis Blomefield (https://books.google.no/books?id=msHNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA386&lpg=PA386&dq=Stigand+Aylmer&source=bl&ots=CMPISwgGkW&sig=4e7GDBaidCP2MoRBJ-B44xH8UXo&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZ6Prx_sbdAhVRp4sKHWi0AlAQ6AEwBnoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=Stigand%20Aylmer&f=false)
Stigand - The brother of Bishop Ailmer
Stigand, Bishop of Elmham and was later Bishop of Winchester and Archbishop of Canterbury. Stigand was an advisor to several members of the Anglo-Saxon and Norman English royal dynasties, serving six successive kings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigand
He was born in East Anglia, possibly in Norwich, to an apparently prosperous family[4] of mixed English and Scandinavian ancestry, as is shown by the fact that Stigand's name was Norse but his brother's was English. His brother Æthelmær, also a cleric, later succeeded Stigand as bishop of Elmham. His sister held land in Norwich, but her given name is unrecorded.
This certainly sounds as if this could be our Aylmers :)
North Elmham in Norfolk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Elmham
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Hi Willow, the Oracle has had a review/re-think of Long Stratton being "Stratton".
1 Will of Alexandre Aylmer 1549: Re Stratton, Norfolk. Now I think this is likely to be Stratton Strawless aka Stratton-juxta-Buxton and next to Hevingham, in the vicinity of Aylsham near North Walsham.
NROCAT: NRS 14728, 29DA Frances d/o Alexander and Christopher Thetford, Hevingham.
(NB: Aylmerton about 3 miles SW of Cromer, plus Aylsham, all in Norfolk).
2 NROCAT: NNAS 92/1/3 Ref. John Aylemer, Pulham St Mary just the other side of the A140 at Tivetshall 1520.
Aylmer Hall in Tivetshall St Margaret.
britishlistedbuildings: Aylmer's Hall, Tivesthall St Margaret
OS Grid: TM184884 and click on just beneath the coordinates on to Historic.
From the Postman:
Also ref http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/maps/?layer=europe&xMin=3404755.62232&yMin=2865780.15355&xMax=3441755.62232&yMax=2902780.15355.
In another life so long ago I barely recall it, I lived for a while in Moulton St Michael but was unaware of Aylmer's Hall which, (using the above Vision Map ref for an old Map) from the Inn at Moulton St Michael, go past Gorelane Farm until you meet Hundred Lane and turn left on it and proceed a bit more and it is almost on the Roman Road (A140 Ipswich to Norwich) where the lane crosses to Colegate End just NE of Pulham St Mary.
Funny that, I went to school at Thetford and North Walsham.
Regards
francoso
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Hi Willow, the Oracle has had a review/re-think of Long Stratton being "Stratton".
1 Will of Alexandre Aylmer 1549: Re Stratton, Norfolk. Now I think this is likely to be Stratton Strawless aka Stratton-juxta-Buxton and next to Hevingham, in the vicinity of Aylsham near North Walsham.
NROCAT: NRS 14728, 29DA Frances d/o Alexander and Christopher Thetford, Hevingham.
(NB: Aylmerton about 3 miles SW of Cromer, plus Aylsham, all in Norfolk).
2 NROCAT: NNAS 92/1/3 Ref. John Aylemer, Pulham St Mary just the other side of the A140 at Tivetshall 1520.
Aylmer Hall in Tivetshall St Margaret.
britishlistedbuildings: Aylmer's Hall, Tivesthall St Margaret
OS Grid: TM184884 and click on just beneath the coordinates on to Historic.
From the Postman:
Also ref http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/maps/?layer=europe&xMin=3404755.62232&yMin=2865780.15355&xMax=3441755.62232&yMax=2902780.15355.
In another life so long ago I barely recall it, I lived for a while in Moulton St Michael but was unaware of Aylmer's Hall which, (using the above Vision Map ref for an old Map) from the Inn at Moulton St Michael, go past Gorelane Farm until you meet Hundred Lane and turn left on it and proceed a bit more and it is almost on the Roman Road (A140 Ipswich to Norwich) where the lane crosses to Colegate End just NE of Pulham St Mary.
Funny that, I went to school at Thetford and North Walsham.
Regards
francoso
Sometimes it really is a very small world :) But how funny though, that you have actually been to school/been physically at these places! What a funny coincidence :)
What are these references?
NROCAT: NRS 14728, 29DA
NROCAT: NNAS 92/1/3
It's probably silly of me not to recognise them :)
Aylmerton and Aylmsham ... Definitely some connection to the Aylmer name, I'd say!
Aylmer's Hall, Tivesthall St Margaret ... Yes, this could be where John Aylmer was from! I wish I could find some kind of record detailing the Aylmers who lived there.
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NROCAT is the Norfok Record Office Catalogue. Go to https://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/ and scroll down, on Left Hand Side see Search Catalogue. There several docs indexed re Aylmer and Alman.
Similarly, search the Suffolk Record Office https://www.suffolkarchives.co.uk/ and google Pre 1858 Suffolk Wills and input Aylmer -- many refs.
Sorry Willow, I forgot to add the references to my earlier reply.
francoso the Postman.
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Norfolk Records Office Catalogue - possible relevance / interest:
1) NCC Will Register Hirning 53
1419 At Moore (Moor) Thomas, capus Magna Jernemuth
2) NCC Will Register Woolman 227
1495 Aylemer (Alymer) alias Miller, William yeo. Norwich
3) NCC Will Register Popys 445
1503 Aylemer (Alymer) alias MOOR, Joan, wid., nup exor William Aylmer antea uxor Radulphi
MOOR de Norwich , of Norwich.
Are 2 and 3 connected ?
4) Release NRS 5865 18D4 24 May 1497
Tivetshall: Release.........to Thomas Aylmer esq. son of Roger Aylmer esq.
Good hunting
francoso
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Hi Willow. You said "Aylmer's Hall, Tivesthall St Margaret ... Yes, this could be where John Aylmer was from! I wish I could find some kind of record detailing the Aylmers who lived there."
There appears to be two Aylmer Halls: one near Tivetshall St Margaret and one at Tilney St Lawrence near King's Lynn. And possibly two John Aylmer -- father and son, the son becoming Bishop of London and of Aylmer Hall, Tivetshall St Margaret, while the father was of Aylmer Hall Tilney St Lawrence.
Website https://www.geni.com/people/Frances-Aylmer gives the following but I doubt it is set in concrete although worth considering perhaps:
Frances Aylmer (also spelled Aelmer and Elmer), died 1540, was a lady of the privy chamber to Princess Mary Tudor from at least 1525 until 1533 and returned to her service in 1536. She served as Mary's proxy when Mary was godmother to one of the children of Lord William Howard. In mid-July 1533, Thomas Cromwell wrote to Lord Hussey, Chamberlain of Mary's household, ordering him to have Mary’s jewels and plate inventoried and placed in the custody of Frances Aylmer. This did not happen. The countess of Salisbury, who was Lady Mistress of the household, refused to comply unless she received written orders from the king himself. Frances is probably the same Frances Aelmer whose will was proved March 21, 1540, since she makes reference in it to Sir William and Lady Butts (Margaret Bacon), who were also members of Mary's household. In a query to Notes and Queries in 1896, citing that will, the writer suggests that Frances might have been the mother of John Aylmer, Bishop of London (1520/21-June 3, 1594). This is certainly a possibility. The Oxford DNB entry for Aylmer list his parents as unknown. Online sources say he was the younger son of John Aylmer of Aylmer Hall in Tilney, Norfolk (John Aylmer had another son, Sir Robert Aylmer) but do not give life dates or a name for this senior John Aylmer’s wife.
It would need original docs to confirm or otherwise the above contentions.
francoso
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NROCAT is the Norfok Record Office Catalogue. Go to https://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/ and scroll down, on Left Hand Side see Search Catalogue. There several docs indexed re Aylmer and Alman.
Similarly, search the Suffolk Record Office https://www.suffolkarchives.co.uk/ and google Pre 1858 Suffolk Wills and input Aylmer -- many refs.
Sorry Willow, I forgot to add the references to my earlier reply.
francoso the Postman.
Thank you so much! :)
Norfolk Records Office Catalogue - possible relevance / interest:
1) NCC Will Register Hirning 53
1419 At Moore (Moor) Thomas, capus Magna Jernemuth
2) NCC Will Register Woolman 227
1495 Aylemer (Alymer) alias Miller, William yeo. Norwich
3) NCC Will Register Popys 445
1503 Aylemer (Alymer) alias MOOR, Joan, wid., nup exor William Aylmer antea uxor Radulphi
MOOR de Norwich , of Norwich.
Are 2 and 3 connected ?
4) Release NRS 5865 18D4 24 May 1497
Tivetshall: Release.........to Thomas Aylmer esq. son of Roger Aylmer esq.
Good hunting
francoso
There appears to be some sort of Aylmer-More connection! :)
CP 25/1/179/96, number 24
County: Northamptonshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One month from Easter, 10 Edward IV [20 May 1470].
Parties: Thomas Heruy and Thomas More, querents, and Thomas Aylmer of Kylmondcote, deforciant.
Property: 1 messuage, 18 acres of land, 1 acre of meadow and 4 acres of pasture in Welford'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Thomas Aylmer has acknowledged the tenements to be the right of Thomas More, as those which the same Thomas and Thomas Heruy have of his gift, and has remised and quitclaimed them from himself and his heirs to Thomas Heruy and Thomas More and the heirs of Thomas More for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: Thomas Heruy and Thomas More have given him 20 pounds sterling.
Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: Thomas Hervey, Thomas Moore, Thomas Aylmer
Places: 'Kylmondcote', Welford
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_179_96.shtml
The Will of Thomas Aylmer 1500
It(e)m to James moor of london vj s viijd [It(em)?] his Brother Robert vj s viijd to Thom(a)s moor of Skottowe vjs viijd to will(ia)m moor vjs viijd
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800847.9
2) NCC Will Register Woolman 227
1495 Aylemer (Alymer) alias Miller, William yeo. Norwich
3) NCC Will Register Popys 445
1503 Aylemer (Alymer) alias MOOR, Joan, wid., nup exor William Aylmer antea uxor Radulphi
MOOR de Norwich , of Norwich.
Are 2 and 3 connected ?
Yes, this is an odd one, isn't it? :) I have only seen the alias another name thing previously with people from Wales in this period who had relocated to England, though I have seen examples of people who switched between surnames (very odd if you ask me, but then they did not), not in my own research, but at Wikipedia and such.
Also, yeoman seems to be almost a step down socially for our Aylmers, even though it would have been something great to aspire to for most people in this period!
This must be this Joan:
In 1503, Joan, widow of Will. Aylmer, buried by Ralf Moor, her first husband, in this porch, and gave 5 marks towards painting the rood-loft.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Norfolk/Volume_4
But I never thought to connect the two! I think you may be right :)
The above has lead me on a very interesting trail. I will post it here as soon as I get my notes in order!
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Hi Willow. You said "Aylmer's Hall, Tivesthall St Margaret ... Yes, this could be where John Aylmer was from! I wish I could find some kind of record detailing the Aylmers who lived there."
There appears to be two Aylmer Halls: one near Tivetshall St Margaret and one at Tilney St Lawrence near King's Lynn. And possibly two John Aylmer -- father and son, the son becoming Bishop of London and of Aylmer Hall, Tivetshall St Margaret, while the father was of Aylmer Hall Tilney St Lawrence.
Website https://www.geni.com/people/Frances-Aylmer gives the following but I doubt it is set in concrete although worth considering perhaps:
Frances Aylmer (also spelled Aelmer and Elmer), died 1540, was a lady of the privy chamber to Princess Mary Tudor from at least 1525 until 1533 and returned to her service in 1536. She served as Mary's proxy when Mary was godmother to one of the children of Lord William Howard. In mid-July 1533, Thomas Cromwell wrote to Lord Hussey, Chamberlain of Mary's household, ordering him to have Mary’s jewels and plate inventoried and placed in the custody of Frances Aylmer. This did not happen. The countess of Salisbury, who was Lady Mistress of the household, refused to comply unless she received written orders from the king himself. Frances is probably the same Frances Aelmer whose will was proved March 21, 1540, since she makes reference in it to Sir William and Lady Butts (Margaret Bacon), who were also members of Mary's household. In a query to Notes and Queries in 1896, citing that will, the writer suggests that Frances might have been the mother of John Aylmer, Bishop of London (1520/21-June 3, 1594). This is certainly a possibility. The Oxford DNB entry for Aylmer list his parents as unknown. Online sources say he was the younger son of John Aylmer of Aylmer Hall in Tilney, Norfolk (John Aylmer had another son, Sir Robert Aylmer) but do not give life dates or a name for this senior John Aylmer’s wife.
It would need original docs to confirm or otherwise the above contentions.
francoso
As I mentioned in the other thread, I think there is a very good chance that the John Aylemer of Pulham St. Mary just on the other side of the A140 at Tivetshall in 1520 could be father of Bishop John Aylmer!
Certainly a relative of Alexander Aylmer (d.1549) of Tivetshall St. Margaret, at the very least! And it is from precisely this branch that I suspect that Bishop John Aylmer hails :) So I think we are getting nearer!
As for the above Frances Aylmer, I suspect that she, rather than being the mother of John Aylmer, was a cousin. I think the reason that her maiden name is unknown was that it simply was Aylmer :)
She makes note of a 'cousin Frances Aylmer' in her will, a child, who I suspect is the daughter of Alexander that married our Christopher Thetford in the other will :)
So I do think that the two of them were definitely related, just not precisely in the way the above author infers! :)
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4) Release NRS 5865 18D4 24 May 1497
Tivetshall: Release.........to Thomas Aylmer esq. son of Roger Aylmer esq.
The above has lead me on a very interesting trail. I will post it here as soon as I get my notes in order!
Norfolk Record Society Manuscripts
CatalogueRef: NRS 5865, 18D4
Title: Tivetshall. Release. Thomas Brampton of Brampton, Esq. to Thomas Aylmer, Esq. son of Roger Aylmer Esq., John Jenney Esq. and others.
Date: 24 May 1497
Description: Seal tag. Latin.
Level: Piece
Repository: Norfolk Record Office
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/DServe.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=95&dsqSearch=%28%28text%29%3D%27Aylmer%27%29
John Jenney, Esq., may have been the great-grandfather of Rose Jenney (b.1474), the wife of Thomas Aylmer.
Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry
https://books.google.no/books?id=YdIKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA648&lpg=PA648&dq=Rose+Jenney+1474+Burke&source=bl&ots=qFwqp1fhaI&sig=uOkj7F7Wh24X2YgHBTEJ8cEb8oA&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj327KSytPdAhXjqIsKHfOoCL0Q6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Rose%20Jenney%201474%20Burke&f=false (https://books.google.no/books?id=YdIKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA648&lpg=PA648&dq=Rose+Jenney+1474+Burke&source=bl&ots=qFwqp1fhaI&sig=uOkj7F7Wh24X2YgHBTEJ8cEb8oA&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj327KSytPdAhXjqIsKHfOoCL0Q6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Rose%20Jenney%201474%20Burke&f=false)
(We've talked about Rose Jenney and Thomas Aylmer before in reply 16 in the thread concerning the will of Anthony Aylmer of 1518 here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799361.9)
Rose also had a brother named John Jenney, but according to Burke, this John was born in 1488, and would thus only have been nine at the time.
If this is the same Jenney family, could it also be the same Thomas Aylmer? Could this transaction be a part of a marriage or and impending marriage between Rose and Thomas Aylmer?
This would mean that Rose's first husband, whom she married in 1493 (again according to Burke), would have to have been dead at this point.
Conversely, this transaction could mean that is this how Thomas Aylmer and Rose Jenney met, or speak of a long connection between the families.
In any case, the likelihood of this being the same Jenney family and the same Thomas Aylmer is high.
And then the Thomas Aylmer who married Rose Jenney cannot be either the son or the brother of Sir Laurence, because we know that Sir Laurence's father was also called Thomas.
And this Thomas Aylmer's father according to the above was called Roger.
I would instead like to suggest an alternate theory, that it was Roger Aylmer who married Elizabeth de Wood and had the children Robert and Thomas with her, and that it was thus Roger Aylmer who was the grandfather of Alexander Aylmer (d.1549).
I think the Thomas Aylmer, Esq., above must be the uncle of Alexander Aylmer (d.1549), our testator, because Tivetshall seem to follow this line.
Thanks Vance Mead we have these two cases in Common Pleas:
Hilary term 1531
f 710
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1068/aCP40no1068fronts/IMG_0710.htm
Suff. Christopher Jenney, of Great Cressyngham Magna, Norf, esq, summoned to answer Thomas Asty, clerk; and Alexander Aylmer, gent, executors of Thomas Aylmer, of Tybityshale, gent. Debt of 20 pounds.
Christopher Jenney (by 1489-1542), of Great Cressingham, Norfolk - History of Parliament Page
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/jenney-christopher-1489-1542
Rose Jenney's brother.
Watchers of Game of Thrones will recognise something from his biography, I think ...
Hilary term 1536
f 2364
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1088/aCP40no1088fronts/IMG_2364.htm
Suff. William Aldred, of Denyngton, yeoman, summoned to answer Alexander Aylmer, gent, executor of Thomas Aylmer, of Tibytishale St Margaret, esq. Debt of 10 pounds.
Reference: C 1/713/6
Description:
Short title: Aylmer v Wygmore.
Plaintiffs: Alexander, nephew and heir of Thomas Aylmer, gentleman.
Defendants: Robert Wygmore.
Subject: Detention of deeds relating to messuages and land in Tivetshall.
Norfolk.
2 documents
Date: 1532-1538
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7479310
From the Will of Alexander Aylmer 1549
I wull that Anne my wyff shall have all my landes and Ten(emen)ts lying in Tyvetshale Saint Margaret in the cowntie of Norff - called Intwoode Batemans and pullents close with all the landes woodes pastures wayes medowes pathes waters com(m)ons and fedinges as before is reputed as p(ar)cell of the same with thappurtenaces To have and to houlde to her duringw her naturall lyff
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We have previously discussed the possibility that Edmund Aylmer, Roger Aylmer and Thomas Aylmer, mentioned together in about 1486, could be brothers.
'Plaintiffs: Edmund Aylmer, esquire. Defendants: William Paston. Subject: Detention of bonds between Roger and Thomas Aylmer and complainant of the one party, and Harry Straunge, Thomas Drury, and John Sharnburgh, of the other.'
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7452975
And then we have three brothers and their families:
Edmund Aylmer - wife Elizabeth Tyrrell, children Frances (d.1540) and Anne.
Roger Aylmer - wife Elizabeth de Wood, children Thomas Aylmer, Esq., m. to Rose Jenney (b.1474), and Robert Aylmer. Roger Aylmer's grandson - his son Robert's son - Alexander Aylmer (d.1549) m. to Anne, and his children William, Frances m. to Christopher Thetford, Bridget m. to Stephen Rookwood, Elizabeth, Honour, Ursula and Mary.
Thomas Aylmer of Ellesnam/Allesham/Elsham in Essex - his children Sir Laurence Aylmer and Thomas Aylmer, gentleman. Sir Laurence married firstly 'city orphan' Margery, daughter of John Langrige, draper, and secondly Juliana Bretton (still alive in 1515-8), the daughter of Thomas Bretton and his wife Agnes. By the 10th of October 1523 he had married Agnes Tolle of London, the widow of John Toll. This John Toll had a son, Thomas Toll, probably by Agnes. Sir Laurence had at least four children, Alice, the wife of Geoffrey Cobbe (d.1538), Anthony (d.1518), rector of the parish church of Sedgefield in the bishopric of Durham, and vicar of the parish church of Harlow in the county of Essex in the diocese of London, William Aylmer, esquire, still alive in 1512, and Thomas Aylmer, freeman of London in 1521.
Furthermore, could Sir Laurence Aylmer and Thomas Aylmer have had a brother named John? Another son of Thomas Aylmer of Ellesnam/Allesham/Elsham in Essex?
Laurence Ailmer, John Ailmer and Thomas Ailmer mentioned together in 1488 - Brothers?
'1488 [...] 4 Henry VII County of Essex [...] 33. Mich. Laurence Ailmer, John Ailmer, Thomas Ailmer, John Barley, Robert Godewyn and William Hampton, pl. Richard Pake and Elizabeth his wife, def. 1 messuage, 24 acres of land, 3 acres of meadow and 18d. rent in Eisonham. Def. quitclaimed to pl. and the heirs of Laurence. Warranty as in 10. Cons. 201.'
http://esah1852.org.uk/images/pdf/ffines/F1400000.pdf
This John could be the father (or grandfather) of Bishop John Aylmer, who is said to have been a John Aylmer.
He could also be the same as the John Aylmer of Pulham St. Mary in Norfolk - in the close vicinity of Tivetshall - who crops up in a document of 1520.
John Aylmer, Bishop of London, was born in 1521. Tivetshall St. Margaret is where he is traditionally said to have been born.
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Willow. A few more refs for you to follow up:
1 NRO: Put in Pulham - nothing else - in quick search. 157 pages.
p 49/157 NNAS G2 /1/3 15 April 1520 (not sure correct day)
Grant........John Aylmer of Pulham St Mary
Deeds relating to property in Mendham and Harleston
p 98/157 1 NCC admin. folio 110 1558 John Aylmer of Pulham St Mary the Virgin
2 NCC .. .. .. 150 1559 Nicholas Aylmer of Pulham Market
p 114/157 ANF will register Liber 21 folio 117 1564 John Elmer **
p 118/157 ANF will register Liber 34 folio 485 1601 Christopher Elmer** weaver
p 120/157 ANF will register 1630 folio 20 Margaret Ellmer**
p 129/157 ANF will register 1710-1712 folio 49 no.64 William Elmer**
p 141/157 ANF 1630 original will no. 164 Margaret Ellmer**
2 National Archives: C1/713/6 1532-1538
Title: Aylmer v Wygmore
Plaintiffs: ALEXANDER, nephew and heir of THOMAS Aylmer, gent.
Defendents: Robert Wygmore
Subject: Detention of deeds relating to messuages and land in TIVETSHALL
2 docs.
Could this Alexander be a son of Richard Aylmer the grocer of Norwich d 1512?
It appears (so far) that Thomas d. 1500 had no children.
And who is John 1521 - 1594, the bishop, who is his father?
3 https://www.freereg.org.uk Norfolk Pulham:
put in Aylmer with soundex. A number of records including John.
put in Elmer with soundex. Same.
francoso the Postie
PS: francoso the postie thought that the father of Bishop John Aylmer 1521-1594, was also a John Alymer of Tilney St Lawrence. But then, I'm only bright enough to be a postie.
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Willow. A few more refs for you to follow up:
1 NRO: Put in Pulham - nothing else - in quick search. 157 pages.
p 49/157 NNAS G2 /1/3 15 April 1520 (not sure correct day)
Grant........John Aylmer of Pulham St Mary
Deeds relating to property in Mendham and Harleston
p 98/157 1 NCC admin. folio 110 1558 John Aylmer of Pulham St Mary the Virgin
2 NCC .. .. .. 150 1559 Nicholas Aylmer of Pulham Market
p 114/157 ANF will register Liber 21 folio 117 1564 John Elmer **
p 118/157 ANF will register Liber 34 folio 485 1601 Christopher Elmer** weaver
p 120/157 ANF will register 1630 folio 20 Margaret Ellmer**
p 129/157 ANF will register 1710-1712 folio 49 no.64 William Elmer**
p 141/157 ANF 1630 original will no. 164 Margaret Ellmer**
2 National Archives: C1/713/6 1532-1538
Title: Aylmer v Wygmore
Plaintiffs: ALEXANDER, nephew and heir of THOMAS Aylmer, gent.
Defendents: Robert Wygmore
Subject: Detention of deeds relating to messuages and land in TIVETSHALL
2 docs.
Thank you so much! Some of these are amazing! :) :D :) I will look into them forthwith :)
Could this Alexander be a son of Richard Aylmer the grocer of Norwich d 1512?
Alexander actually mentions his father and uncle in his will, see the snippet below :)
the lawe for her joynter And after hir decease then I woll yt shall remayn unto will(ia)m my son(n)e and heyre accordinge to my Uncle Thomas Aylemers wyll. Also I give to will(ia)m my sonne and heyre my mansion howse at Catington with all the Landes woodes medowes pasturs with thappurtun(an)ces that was my fathers Robt Aylemers
He was the son of a Robert Aylmer, and had an uncle named Thomas Aylmer :)
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It appears (so far) that Thomas d. 1500 had no children.
That is correct.
And who is John 1521 - 1594, the bishop, who is his father?
3 https://www.freereg.org.uk Norfolk Pulham:
put in Aylmer with soundex. A number of records including John.
put in Elmer with soundex. Same.
francoso the Postie
PS: francoso the postie thought that the father of Bishop John Aylmer 1521-1594, was also a John Alymer of Tilney St Lawrence. But then, I'm only bright enough to be a postie.
Well, that's just the thing :) Nobody precisely knows.
According to John Strype:
He received his first breath in the county of Norfolk, about the year 1521. For in 1581 I read him in one of his letters calling himself homo sexatrenarius, i. e. “a man of threescore years of age.” Born, according to Dr. Fuller, at Aylmer Hall, in the parish of Tilsley, as he saith the Bishop's nearest relation informed him; mistaken, I suppose, for Tilney in the same county ; for as for Tilsley, there is scarce such a town in England. In the neighbouring county of Suffolk, within four miles of Ipswich, there is a very fair house called Claidon Hall, now, or late, in the possession of the Aylmers. His elder brother was Sir Robert Aylmer, of Aylmer Hall aforesaid, whose ancestor was High Sheriff of that county of Norfolk in the time of Edward II.
https://archive.org/stream/historicalcollec00stryuoft#page/2/search/Tilsley
John Strype seems to be building off this source:
John Aylmer, brother to Sir Robert Aylmer, knight, was born, at Aylmer-hall, in the parish of Tilseley, in this county as his nearest surviving relations have informed me, from whom I have received the following information.
When he was but a child, going toward school, Henry Gray, duke of Suffolk, having some discourse with, took so much liking unto him, that, after he had been bred some years in the university of Cambridge, he made him his chaplain, and committed his daughter the lady Jane Gray to his tuition.
The History of the Worthies of England by Thomas Fuller (https://books.google.no/books?id=XQ55YQgv7oMC&pg=PA447&lpg=PA447&dq=Thomas+Fuller+Sir+Robert+AYlmer&source=bl&ots=Avj3EZAKUR&sig=pKaBzGBjzG8_UOAYFSs-b-6Uxjo&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizlKGc3drdAhWRiaYKHS71DnwQ6AEwAHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Fuller%20Sir%20Robert%20AYlmer&f=false)
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The below page goes into the difficulties of trying to establish where Bishop John Aylmer was born:
Of the many Aylmers who have had a significant role in religious life, the most prominent was surely John Aylmer, Bishop of London to Queen Elizabeth I, from 1577 to his death in 1594.
Birth and early life - John was born in Norfolk in 1521 or possibly 1520. Birthplace, however, is a subject of some uncertainty.
Wikipedia, bless it, has the birthplace as Tilney St Lawrence, a village of north Norfolk, south of the Wash, and these references give the place of birth as Aylmer Hall in that vicinity, this having been the family home for generations. Another possibility is the nearby Tilney All Saints.
There may be a stronger claim for Tivetshall St Mary in south Norfolk, north of Diss. The presently-named Walk Farm was until the early twentieth century known as Aylmer’s Hall, and had been since it was built in the late fifteenth century. The Cambridge alumni database, which present resident of Walk Farm Liz Chubbock has researched for me, states his birth place as “Aylmer Hall, Tivetshall, Norfolk”. The Oxford DNB has him as “descended from the Norfolk branch of an ancient family long established in Tivetshall St Mary”, though this is not quite the same as saying he was born there.
But to confuse matters even more, a local history group in Wacton, the next parish north of Tivetshall St Mary, tell me of village ‘folklore/myth/legend/story/fact’ of his birth at Wacton Hall, though “this may not have been grand enough to have been the dynastic home of a wealthy family”. This too changed its name – from Aylmer Hall, this time – in the twentieth century, at least as recently as 1906! Maybe Nortfolk villagers got tired of spelling Aylmer … The Wacton village sign commemorates him, encased in a barrel – perhaps a refernce to his exile, see below.
http://aylmer.org.uk/who-we-were/aylmers-at-prayer/bishop-john-aylmer/
There is of course also our Tivetshall St. Margaret, whose claim I think, is as good as that of the above :)
To muddy the waters further (this observation is my own) the Grey Marquises of Dorset, the patrons of Bishop John Aylmer, referred to their hometown of Tilty in Essex as Tilsey, leading me to believe that perhaps it is this place that the Bishop is referring to.
Tilseley ?=
Tilty or Tylsey in Essex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilty
However, our Aylmers were at large in Norfolk, Essex and Suffolk, so I do still believe that we have found the right branch :)
I have my doubts as to whether or not this Sir Robert Aylmer actually existed, as I have been able to find no corraborating proof to verify his existence.
It is the Lincolnshire pedigrees that give Bishop John Aylmer a father named John:
The Lincolnshire Pedigrees, edited by A.R. Maddison
https://archive.org/stream/LincolnshirePedigreesV50/LincolnshirePedigrees_Maddison_v50#page/n69/search/Aylmer
I do, however, must admit that I remain sceptical about both of these facts. I am, however, loathe to discount them entirely, so I have simply ... remained open to all of the alternatives.
I must admit that going into the wills of both Frances Aylmer (d.1540) and later Alexander Aylmer (d.1549) I had great hope that it would reveal firstly that Frances Aylmer was his mother, and then later that Alexander Aylmer was his father, but neither of them make mention of him in their wills.
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p 98/157 1 NCC admin. folio 110 1558 John Aylmer of Pulham St Mary the Virgin
2 NCC .. .. .. 150 1559 Nicholas Aylmer of Pulham Market
These are wills :) These are super-interesting! The first one in particular. It might contain the answer to our mystery ... Or at least bring us closer to said answer :)
p 114/157 ANF will register Liber 21 folio 117 1564 John Elmer **
What does ANF stand for, francoso? :)
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Willow, ANF = Archdeaconry of Norfolk. In NROCAT (Norfolk Records Office Catalogue) webpage:
https://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/ put ANF in the Search Box which is next to the black Accessibility. This gives three hits:
1. Archdeaconry of Norfolk
https://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/using-the-archives/guide-to-holdings/religion/church-of-england/archdeaconry-of-norfolk
2. Curate's licences, visitations and appointments
https://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/family-history/parishes-and-churches/researching-an-anglican-clergyman/curates-licences-visitations-and-appointments
3. Bishop’s registers and visitation records
https://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/the-history-of-your-home/researching-a-parish-church/bishops-registers-and-visitation-records
I haven't actually checked these myself though the Oracle seems to have done so.
francoso the postie
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Just a reminder, Willow. The three Wills from Pulham are are on NROCAT.
NROCAT. Quick search. Pulham. Aylmer / Elmer.
Pages numbered: 157 for Pulham documents.
francoso
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Just a reminder, Willow. The three Wills from Pulham are are on NROCAT.
NROCAT. Quick search. Pulham. Aylmer / Elmer.
Pages numbered: 157 for Pulham documents.
francoso
Thank you so much! :)
I found the records for these two okay:
Norwich Consistory Court Probate Records
Administrations
Administration Act Books
Administration act book
CatalogueRef: NCC administration act book 1558-1560, fo. 110
Title: Aylemer, John, of Pulham St Mary the Virgin, Norfolk
Date: 1558
Description: Grant of Administration.
Repository: Norfolk Record Office
Category: probate
Finding Aids: Typescript index: NCC admons 1516-1603.
Copies: Use microfilm MF 167-168.
Pulham St Mary the Virgin/Norfolk
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=15&dsqSearch=%28%28%28text%29%3D%27Aylemer%27%29AND%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29%29
Norwich Consistory Court Probate Records
Administrations
Administration Act Books
Administration act book
CatalogueRef: NCC administration act book 1558-1560, fo. 150
Title: Aylemer, Nicholas, of Pulham Market, Norfolk
Date: 1559
Description: Grant of Administration.
Level: Item
Repository: Norfolk Record Office
Category: probate
Finding Aids: Typescript index: NCC admons 1516-1603.
Copies: Use microfilm MF 167-168.
Pulham Market/Norfolk
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=17&dsqSearch=%28%28%28text%29%3D%27Aylemer%27%29AND%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29%29
Will try again for:
p 114/157 ANF will register Liber 21 folio 117 1564 John Elmer **
Would love to have a look at all three of these wills! :)
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Would love to have a look at all three of these wills! :)
As far as I can see from the catalogue entries above, the first two (John Aylemer and Nicholas Aylemer) are simply entries in the Administration Act Book, suggesting that these are only Grants of Administration, and not wills.
If I understand the coding correctly, the third entry (John Elmer), with the code ANF, appears to be a will proved in the Archdeaconry Court of Norfolk, not the Norwich Consistory Court (NCC).
Following the guidance here ...
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Court_of_the_Archdeaconry_of_Norfolk
... leads us to film 167077 here...
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/291384?availability=Family%20History%20Library (scroll down)
But unfortunately this film has a ‘key’ symbol above the camera, indicating that it can only be viewed at a Family History Centre or affiliated library.
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Would love to have a look at all three of these wills! :)
As far as I can see from the catalogue entries above, the first two (John Aylemer and Nicholas Aylemer) are simply entries in the Administration Act Book, suggesting that these are only Grants of Administration, and not wills.
This is probably an incredibly silly question, but what is the difference between a Grant of Administration and a will?
If I understand the coding correctly, the third entry (John Elmer), with the code ANF, appears to be a will proved in the Archdeaconry Court of Norfolk, not the Norwich Consistory Court (NCC).
Following the guidance here ...
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Court_of_the_Archdeaconry_of_Norfolk
... leads us to film 167077 here...
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/291384?availability=Family%20History%20Library (scroll down)
But unfortunately this film has a ‘key’ symbol above the camera, indicating that it can only be viewed at a Family History Centre or affiliated library.
Oh, that's a shame! :(
Do you know why they lock certain documents, and not others?
There is one more will that I would love to get a look at, and which puzzles me exceedingly:
Also, p41 No.182 Nicholas Aylemer of Bury 12 Nov 1473 6 Jan 1473
francoso
Nicholaus Aylemer de Bury, 12 Nov. 1473. 1473, 6 Jan. 1473
https://archive.org/details/calendarofpreref00redsrich/page/40
Do you have any idea where I might find this? I am very intrigued by this, especially because of the possible Cecily Hoo connection, which intrigues me :)
Thank you so much for helping me search for these! :) :) :)
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what is the difference between a Grant of Administration and a will?
If someone died intestate (leaving no valid will), and their assets exceeded a certain sum, someone would have to apply to the court to distribute (‘administer’) their estate, according to the laws of intestacy. A Grant of Administration would be issued by the court, authorising the administrator to act. Such grants are recorded in the court’s Administration Act Book, as shown in the catalogue entries above.
If the deceased left a will that wasn’t valid for some reason (e.g. unsigned, unwitnessed, no executors named etc.), then a Grant of Administration might be issued ‘with the will annexed’. But there is no suggestion of such a will in these two entries.
The information included in a Grant of Administration can vary, but it is mainly ‘procedural’ (e.g. the administrator’s name, occasionally his/her relationship, place, date, value of the inventory etc.). At these early dates such grants are normally about half a dozen lines in Latin.
Do you know why they lock certain documents, and not others?
This is determined by the authority with responsibility for the custody of the records (e.g. the diocese), and it depends on the precise terms of their access agreement with FamilySearch.
There is one more will that I would love to get a look at, and which puzzles me exceedingly:
Nicholaus Aylemer de Bury, 12 Nov. 1473. 1473, 6 Jan. 1473
https://archive.org/details/calendarofpreref00redsrich/page/40
Do you have any idea where I might find this? I am very intrigued by this, especially because of the possible Cecily Hoo connection, which intrigues me
This will was apparently proved in the county of Suffolk (not Norfolk), in the Commissary Court of the Sacrist of St Edmunds (in Bury St Edmunds), which was later incorporated into the Archdeaconry Court of Sudbury.
So the original records will be at the Suffolk Record Office. I think they have been digitised, but access is ‘locked’ again, as with the others. See here ...
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/348499?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Depending on your level of interest, you could always email the record office and ask for a copy.
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It seems to me there are some wills here Willow that are on film with Familysearch, but 'locked', which means you can only view them at a FHS centre library.
I don't know where you are in the world, but is there not one near you?
There must be scores of them all over the world. Even two within striking distance of me down here in the Antipodes! which I have visited often and found some great things through using the films you can access at them.
I've always been made very welcome and people there have been very helpful.
Might be worth a try.
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what is the difference between a Grant of Administration and a will?
If someone died intestate (leaving no valid will), and their assets exceeded a certain sum, someone would have to apply to the court to distribute (‘administer’) their estate, according to the laws of intestacy. A Grant of Administration would be issued by the court, authorising the administrator to act. Such grants are recorded in the court’s Administration Act Book, as shown in the catalogue entries above.
If the deceased left a will that wasn’t valid for some reason (e.g. unsigned, unwitnessed, no executors named etc.), then a Grant of Administration might be issued ‘with the will annexed’. But there is no suggestion of such a will in these two entries.
The information included in a Grant of Administration can vary, but it is mainly ‘procedural’ (e.g. the administrator’s name, occasionally his/her relationship, place, date, value of the inventory etc.). At these early dates such grants are normally about half a dozen lines in Latin.
That is very interesting, thank you! I had no idea, but, of course, it makes so much sense. Where are/were the Grant of Administration kept? (If they still exist?)
Do you know why they lock certain documents, and not others?
This is determined by the authority with responsibility for the custody of the records (e.g. the diocese), and it depends on the precise terms of their access agreement with FamilySearch.
There is one more will that I would love to get a look at, and which puzzles me exceedingly:
Nicholaus Aylemer de Bury, 12 Nov. 1473. 1473, 6 Jan. 1473
https://archive.org/details/calendarofpreref00redsrich/page/40
Do you have any idea where I might find this? I am very intrigued by this, especially because of the possible Cecily Hoo connection, which intrigues me
This will was apparently proved in the county of Suffolk (not Norfolk), in the Commissary Court of the Sacrist of St Edmunds (in Bury St Edmunds), which was later incorporated into the Archdeaconry Court of Sudbury.
So the original records will be at the Suffolk Record Office. I think they have been digitised, but access is ‘locked’ again, as with the others. See here ...
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/348499?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Depending on your level of interest, you could always email the record office and ask for a copy.
How would one, practically, go about doing that?
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It seems to me there are some wills here Willow that are on film with Familysearch, but 'locked', which means you can only view them at a FHS centre library.
I don't know where you are in the world, but is there not one near you?
There must be scores of them all over the world. Even two within striking distance of me down here in the Antipodes! which I have visited often and found some great things through using the films you can access at them.
I've always been made very welcome and people there have been very helpful.
Might be worth a try.
Oh, yes, this is actually an excellent idea! Does there exist a list somewhere of the locations of the FHS centre libraries? :)
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https://www.familysearch.org/locations/
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How would one, practically, go about doing that?
You can email the Bury St Edmunds branch of the Suffolk Record Office with the reference.
Ask them to confirm they have the item and to provide a quote for a paper or digital copy.
They will then email you an order form and a payment form (they accept debit/credit cards), which you complete and email back to them.
The last will that I ordered from Bury took less than a week.
Email - bury.ro (AT) suffolk.gov.uk
But if you can get to an FHC, as goldie61 suggests, you will get free access to the digital images on FamilySearch. You can normally email these images to yourself, to view at home.
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But if you can get to an FHC, as goldie61 suggests, you will get free access to the digital images on FamilySearch. You can normally email these images to yourself, to view at home.
And quite often you can download them there - onto a memory stick.
It depends what agreement they have with the particular office where they did the filming.
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Thank you so much, the both of you!!! :) :) :)
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Apologies for missing this question earlier ...
That is very interesting, thank you! I had no idea, but, of course, it makes so much sense. Where are/were the Grant of Administration kept? (If they still exist?)
Such grants are recorded in the court’s Administration Act Book, as shown in the catalogue entries above.
In this case at the Norfolk Record Office. See the catalogue entries that you yourself posted in reply #70 above.
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Apologies for missing this question earlier ...
No worries! :) When threads get so convoluted as these I think it is inevitable. I have certainly hurried back to reply to something I missed the first time around, lol!
That is very interesting, thank you! I had no idea, but, of course, it makes so much sense. Where are/were the Grant of Administration kept? (If they still exist?)
Such grants are recorded in the court’s Administration Act Book, as shown in the catalogue entries above.
In this case at the Norfolk Record Office. See the catalogue entries that you yourself posted in reply #70 above.
Do you know how one would go about ordering them? :) This is very much a little unknown territory for me, still.
Thank you so much for replying! :)
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Do you know how one would go about ordering them? :) This is very much a little unknown territory for me, still.
As explained above in my reply #78, substituting Norwich/Norfolk for Bury/Suffolk.
Email - norfrec (AT) norfolk.gov.uk
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Excellent! Thank you! :) :) :)