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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: hardsocks on Thursday 13 September 18 19:11 BST (UK)

Title: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Thursday 13 September 18 19:11 BST (UK)
Trying to find the death of Jane Stuart campbell wife of Joseph Campbell national school teacher who died in 1909 at st kilda street belfast last known child born in 1871.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 19:20 BST (UK)
Death results for Jane Campbell from 1909 to 1909

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mpz/
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 19:22 BST (UK)
Did you read the replies on your other thread??

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800268.0
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Thursday 13 September 18 19:29 BST (UK)
Yes read posts from last thread very informing  .Joseph died in 1909 not jane and died a widower
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 19:31 BST (UK)
To look for something like this just go to

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp

and enter relevant details 


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Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 19:33 BST (UK)
Obviously I looked for death of Jane Stuart campbell wife of Joseph Campbell national school teacher who died in 1909
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Thursday 13 September 18 19:36 BST (UK)
Thankyou hallmark
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 19:37 BST (UK)
If she is on 1901 Census then try this search

If not then adjust year range!
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Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 19:50 BST (UK)
There are 12 but you can eliminate a good few by Age at Death
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 20:12 BST (UK)
Do you know where Joe was in 1901??

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mq0/  gets you 60 to 70 y.o ones

Otherwise you'll need to search the whole country for Jane's death...  I presume she didn't die in Roscrea as I posted link to all of them there and presume you've looked there.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Thursday 13 September 18 20:17 BST (UK)
Thought i found her but it was ajane stewart not stuart and was married to a farmer took me 30 yeary to find my grandmother mary (mcintyre) Campbell i will keep trying for jane
Thankyou
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 20:28 BST (UK)
If you don't know where or when she died you'll need to search like this  (below)

You'd be more familiar with searching if the other siblings in Roscrea hadn't been posted, then you'd see how easy they are to find.

I make Jane to be born c.1840  so as I said, many can be eliminated by age at Death.  Just a matter of checking "possibles" at your leisure.


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Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 20:30 BST (UK)
Grrrr


This search!!!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 20:37 BST (UK)
Did any of the children marry?  If so, Where?  When?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 20:54 BST (UK)
  Joseph Campbell national school teacher   died in 1909 at st kilda street belfast 


So  who was informant??
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 13 September 18 21:15 BST (UK)
His daughter was informant!!

At her Marriage Joe is a Widower!! 


Have you not looked for her Marriage??  You know her Birth Year.... so you can look for her marrying 20 to 30 Years later plus you get Joe's address at the time of Marriage.

This simple search would have found it!!  Only 1 result to look at!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 01:50 BST (UK)
Here is the daughters Josephine and Annie in 1901

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ormeau/Sherwood_Street/1213276/

So daughter Annie was born in Monaghan and daughter Josephine born in Tipperary, so who knows where they were living when the wife died!

I can't find Joseph the school teacher though - so where is he in 1901?

Where was the last child born? Edit - articlave, Coleraine, Derry.

Hallmark - how do you know Joe was a widow when Josephine married?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 07:28 BST (UK)

 

Hallmark - how do you know Joe was a widow when Josephine married?

My mistake.... he was still Married!     ;D

Because no details of Father' death was posted I had to go looking for it. Then saw who Informant was!!

Using the clues from Death Cert I looked for the Marriage!

So, she was alive at time of Daughter's Marriage, so at least he year range for her Death can be reduced.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 07:49 BST (UK)


Here is the daughters Josephine and Annie in 1901

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ormeau/Sherwood_Street/1213276/

So daughter Annie was born in Monaghan and daughter Josephine born in Tipperary, so who knows where they were living when the wife died!

 

Where was the last child born? Edit - articlave, Coleraine, Derry.
 


So I think that makes 4 known children (so far).  Charlotte (Tipp), David (Derry), Josephine (Tipp), Ann (Monaghan)
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 08:10 BST (UK)
Trying to find the death of Jane Stuart campbell wife of Joseph Campbell national school teacher who died in 1909 at st kilda street belfast last known child born in 1871.

All you need to do now is to find the death of Jane Stuart Campbell (wife of Joseph Campbell) last known alive at daughter's Marriage year and 1909.


"Joseph Campbell who was a National school teacher in Tipperary in the 1800s had a Daughter called Josephine born in Roscrea in the mid 1860s..... "

...so it looks like you know about her, why not say what you know which saves people wasting time trying to find her??

Also post other known clues from Certs etc....

Where did  Josephine go?
Is she on any Census wherever? 
Are parents there, as they don't seem to be on 1901 one here? 
Could mother have died there??
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 08:33 BST (UK)
Josephine married a joseph mclaughin and lived in east belfast her address on the wedding cert was upper meadow street  Thomas Campbell a flex dresser lived there who i think was my grandfather as the name and the job where the same
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 08:35 BST (UK)
For further checking::

There was a 56yr old male, initials JC, in an institute at Ballydollaghan (Breda, Down) in 1901. Occupation noted as Teacher.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Breda/Ballydollaghan/1238389/

Update: looks to have been the Belfast Lunatic Asylum.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 08:41 BST (UK)
Josephine married a joseph mclaughin and lived in east belfast her address on the wedding cert was upper meadow street  Thomas Campbell a flex dresser lived there who i think was my grandfather as the name and the job where the same

Her father, Joseph, is noted with a middle name. Hard to read, possibly 'Bernard' although first initial doesn't really seem to be a 'B'.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 08:49 BST (UK)
Did Samuel marry?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 08:50 BST (UK)
Josephine married a joseph mclaughin and lived in east belfast her address on the wedding cert was upper meadow street  Thomas Campbell a flex dresser lived there who i think was my grandfather as the name and the job where the same

So you know mother was alive then!

Narrows the years to search for Death...
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 08:52 BST (UK)
Joseph's middle name is Samuel
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 08:55 BST (UK)
The JC is the lunatic asslyum is shown as single?

How does the draughters wedding prove the mother was still alive?
I have been trying to search for newspaper cuttings

Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 08:57 BST (UK)
The JC is the lunatic asslyum is shown as single?

How does the draughters wedding prove the mother was still alive?
I have been trying to search for newspaper cuttings

He wasn't a widower!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 09:13 BST (UK)
The Campbell side of the family are hard to trace back but i got my mothers side back to 1810.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 09:19 BST (UK)
I would search for all the children as we only have Josephine and Annie in 1901 and can't find them in 1911.

Where is Charlotte, Charles and David (b Coleraine 1871) and any others

Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 09:22 BST (UK)
There was also a son called Thomas cant find his birth anywhere he was my grandfather
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: dathai on Friday 14 September 18 09:34 BST (UK)
Two more sisters
 I noted on Josephine's marriage the witnesses were F E Morgan and Adelaide
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1890/10697/5899186.pdf

1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Syndenham_Road/1219423/

Jemima and Samuel Hughes 1913 i would doubt her age
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1913/09878/5588294.pdf
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 09:37 BST (UK)
I would search for all the children as we only have Josephine and Annie in 1901 and can't find them in 1911.

Where is Charlotte, Charles and David (b Coleraine 1871) and any others


Isn't Charles  Samuel??
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 09:39 BST (UK)
Posted following on the other thread by mistake:

An Albert Edmond Campbell was born in 1873 in Drollagh. Interestingly, he had parents Joseph S Campbell, National Teacher and Jane Frances Campbell nee Campbell.

A Jemima Campbell born 1869 in Clondalkin, Dublin but registered in Coleraine District. Father Joseph S., a schoolmaster. Mother Jane F, nee Campbell.

So, was Jane 'Stuart/Stewart' to her middle name or 'Frances'? Or, were there two teachers named Joseph Campbell who happened to marry two females named Jane that happened to both be nee Campbell?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: dathai on Friday 14 September 18 09:40 BST (UK)
Note
  Adelaide is Adelaide C is she Caroline age about right
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 09:41 BST (UK)

Quote
Isn't Charles  Samuel??

It would seem so, ie Samuel Charles Edward Campbell.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 09:41 BST (UK)
 ;D ;D  sure gets more confusing with 2 threads running at same time!!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 09:45 BST (UK)
There was also a son called Thomas cant find his birth anywhere he was my grandfather


Any others?


Who is known?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 10:08 BST (UK)
The Joseph Campbell who died at St Kilda Street 1909:

https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7607.21078

buried in public ground, so not with wife.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 10:18 BST (UK)
A Josephine McLaughlin in St Kilda Street at 1911

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Ormeau/Saint_Kilda_Street/217665/
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 10:25 BST (UK)
There was also a son called Thomas cant find his birth anywhere he was my grandfather

What records do you have for you grandfather, Thomas, that names his parents and/or siblings, or links him to addresses for the Campbells that have been noted so far? What approximate year was he born? Have you found him in the 1901/1911 census? When and where did he marry?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 10:34 BST (UK)
There was also a son called Thomas cant find his birth anywhere he was my grandfather

Could have been born before 1864!!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 10:39 BST (UK)
Here is the daughters Josephine and Annie in 1901

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ormeau/Sherwood_Street/1213276/

So daughter Annie was born in Monaghan and daughter Josephine born in Tipperary, so who knows where they were living when the wife died!

I can't find Joseph the school teacher though - so where is he in 1901?

Where was the last child born? Edit - articlave, Coleraine, Derry.

 


Good find!!

Now there is Annie.  Found because we now know who Josephine married via info on Death Cert.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 11:36 BST (UK)
I think the annie was my grandfathers thomas s sister and was whitness at his first marrage in the 1880s to a margaret mccormick
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 11:38 BST (UK)
I think the annie was my grandfathers thomas s sister and was whitness at his first marrage in the 1880s to a margaret mccormick


Where?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 11:41 BST (UK)
Its a ceazy mixed up family
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 11:45 BST (UK)
What was father's occupation then??
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 11:46 BST (UK)
Is Thomas on 1901 Census and if so, born Where?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 11:48 BST (UK)
The Thomas who married Margaret McCormack in Belfast in 1883, listed his father as Joseph, occupation Labourer.

If this is your Thomas, again, what documents do you have suggesting he is linked with Joseph, a National Teacher/schoolmaster.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 11:52 BST (UK)
The Thomas who married Margaret McCormack in Belfast in 1883, listed his father as Joseph, occupation Labourer.

If this is your Thomas, again, what documents do you have sggesting he is linked with Joseph, a National Teacher/schoolmaster.


So he wasn't a school teacher then??
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 11:55 BST (UK)
What was father's occupation on 2nd Marriage??


Not sure why you just can't just give details of everything instead of having to ask question after question after question!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 11:56 BST (UK)
Possibly coincidence, but a widowed Elizabeth Campbell in Danube Street at 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Danube_Street/948325/

The Joseph who married in 1883, lived at Danube Street.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 11:59 BST (UK)
A widowed Elizabeth Campbell in Danube Street at 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Danube_Street/948325/

The Joseph who married in 1883, lived at Danube Street.


Is Joseph another son?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 12:04 BST (UK)
A widowed Elizabeth Campbell in Danube Street at 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Danube_Street/948325/

The Joseph who married in 1883, lived at Danube Street.



Is Joseph another son?

I was wondering if her husband may have been a Joseph and if so, that they may have had a son, Thomas (so potentially the one who married in 1883 and is apparently grandfather of hardsocks).

If it was, and given hardsocks cannot find a birth for Thomas, perhaps like the John listed as son of Elizabeth, he was born in Scotland.

Obviously, all of above would need checked more fully.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 12:06 BST (UK)
Here is the Danube street family in 1901 too
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Danube_Street/948325/
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 12:09 BST (UK)
Nothing registered for any Joseph Campbell marrying a Campbell, Stewart or Stuart within the criteria entered!!

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Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 12:12 BST (UK)
21 Danube Street was being constructed in 1880 and in 1890 was vacant

OP - do you have Thomas's second marriage and details of him in the 1901 census?

I think the family with Joseph and Jane may not be right - as the marriage cert shows he is a labourer and not a teacher? Do you have evidence to suggest he was a teacher?

Thomas is listed as 24 when he got married and the marriage is church of Ireland, so he would have been born pre registration



Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 13:27 BST (UK)
Details I have
1st marrage  Thomas Campbell married 1800s to Margaret mccormick
 2nd marrage to Minnie McIntyre my grand mother.
His father was Joseph Campbell. at Thomass first marrage anne Campbell was a witness
a Josephine Campbell married a Joseph McLaughlin around 1880
Josephine was married from upper meadow street
Thomas Campbell flaxdresser lived there my grandfather Thomas Campbell was a flex dresser
and later had a fruit shop on the old lodge road then in 1911 he lived in 9 Cumberland street
on the census his birth place was county down.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 13:43 BST (UK)
also Josephine McLaughlin (Campbell) Daughter WAS PRESENT AND THE DEATH OF Joseph Campbell
school teacher in St Kilda street
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 14:20 BST (UK)
I assume you have this

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09741/5534955.pdf

Your grandparents wedding - again the father is given as Joseph, a labourer.
Also Thomas is a labourer - where did you get that he is a flexdresser?

Number 44 Dagmar Street unfortunately doesn't have your relatives living in it in 1911 - from the street directorys it has a Henry Barr, Tailer and then in 1918 Hugh McDowell, Tailer - so your grandparents must have been there for a vey short time or were lodging with Hugh or Henry
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 14:29 BST (UK)
Got it from his death cert 1934 died 9 cumberland street flaxdresser
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 14:32 BST (UK)
Thought for the day:

Sometimes, when a blank page is filled with various, random dots, it can be tempting to draw a picture by linking those dots together. Doing so, does not mean that the picture was the intended result.

I really do think that names have been followed with no certainty that the people with those names are one and the same in each instance.

The Thomas Campbell who married Minnie McIntyre in 1917, also stated that his father, Joseph, was a Labourer.

Again, what leads you to believe that the family (or families) with a Joseph S Campbell, a teacher/schoolmaster, were connected with your Thomas?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 14:36 BST (UK)
Got it from his death cert 1934 died 9 cumberland street flaxdresser

If the Thomas who died at 9 Cumberland Street in 1934 was, as he seems to be, the same Thomas who lived there in 1911, it seems a bit odd (albeit not impossible), that he wasn't living there in 1917, if he is the same Thomas who married Minnie McIntyre.

Also, in 1917, your Thomas was 55, and a labourer, whilst in 1911, the Thomas at Cumberland Street was 54 (again, not impossible for ages to vary, but still needs consideration), and a Flax Dresser.

I see from burial record of Thomas who died in 1934, that Margaret Campbell of 9 Cumberland Street, died 1916, is in same plot.:

https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx?GraveSection=C&GraveNumber=83&CemeteryName=City%20Cemetery%20-%20Glenalina%20Extension
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 14:37 BST (UK)
I assume you have this

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09741/5534955.pdf

Your grandparents wedding - again the father is given as Joseph, a labourer.
Also Thomas is a labourer - where did you get that he is a flexdresser?

Number 44 Dagmar Street unfortunately doesn't have your relatives living in it in 1911 - from the street directorys it has a Henry Barr, Tailer and then in 1918 Hugh McDowell, Tailer - so your grandparents must have been there for a very short time or were lodging with Hugh or Henry


I don't think they were anywhere for a long time.... they had kid in Roscrea, then 1 or 2 in Monaghan, then one Clonmel, then 1 or 2 Coleraine, 1 in Dublin registered Coleraine and then Thomas and Anne in Monaghan.


For a school teacher with young family he didn't seem to teach at any school for any length of time.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 14:44 BST (UK)
Got it from his death cert 1934 died 9 cumberland street flaxdresser

If the Thomas who died at 9 Cumberland Street in 1934 was, as he seems to be, the same Thomas who lived there in 1911, it seems a bit odd (albeit not impossible), that he wasn't living there in 1917, if he is the same Thomas who married Minnie McIntyre.

I was thinking the same thing - how do you know the death cert is for the right person?

There is a Margaret Campbell buried with the above Thomas
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1916/05246/4454032.pdf

And also a John Campbell in 1966 from Randalstown
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx?GraveSection=C&GraveNumber=83&CemeteryName=City Cemetery - Glenalina Extension

Where and when did your Grandmother Minnie McIntyre die and do you have her burial?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: dathai on Friday 14 September 18 14:44 BST (UK)
Obviously the man who lived at 9 Cumberland St never left that address
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Wood_Vale_Ward/Cumberland_Street/163708/
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 14:55 BST (UK)
Number 9 Cumberland street is Empty in 1908, and Thomas Campbell, fitter moves in by 1910
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 14:59 BST (UK)
Obviously the man who lived at 9 Cumberland St never left that address
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Wood_Vale_Ward/Cumberland_Street/163708/


These Campells lived  at 9th house that was enumerated on  Cumberland St
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 15:02 BST (UK)
Obviously the man who lived at 9 Cumberland St never left that address
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Wood_Vale_Ward/Cumberland_Street/163708/


These Campells lived  at 9th house that was enumerated on  Cumberland St

Yes, but as well as being the 9th enumerated, it does seem to have also , in this instance, actually been number 9 (I know it isn't always the case), as Thomas and family members are mentioned there in a few newspaper items of timescale.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 15:14 BST (UK)
With all due respect, hardsocks, I really think you need to start over again from a point/person closest to you yourself, where you are 100% certain of the facts and have documentary evidence to back those up. Then, slowly and steadily work backwards from there, cross referencing as you go. It does seem that possibly assumptions have been made when persons of the same or similar name, in same or similar timescales, could fit and that people have been followed based on those assumptions, thereby creating a tangled web of names that are not necessarily all and the same people. Some threads within the web may have, by good fortune or otherwise, been spun confidently, and strong connections achieved, whilst others were spun hesitantly, and are potentially wrong, hence the overall web is weak.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 15:23 BST (UK)
To rule the Cumberland Street family in or out I would look for the births of the Children - is the mothers maiden name McCormick?

The children are
Thomas (1887)
John (1895)
James (1899)
Ernest (1902)

I have had a look for Ernest I thought he might be easier to find -as its a rarer name, but I couldn't find one born to Thomas and Margaret

Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 15:27 BST (UK)
A agree with Scotsmum - start from a point of certainty

Ie: your mum or dad - get a copy of there birth certificate - the parents I assume are Thomas Campbell and Minnie McIntyre - what does Thomas do and where are the living at this stage?

Work backwards from this.

All you actually seem to know is the Thomas was a widower when he married your granny - how do you know Margaret was the 1st wife?

Did your mum or dad have step brothers or sisters?

Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 15:29 BST (UK)
He is the Joseph one born 1902

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01925/1745598.pdf


These have probably all been researched by the poster!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 15:33 BST (UK)
He is the Joseph one born 1902

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01925/1745598.pdf


These have probably all been researched by the poster!

...and we know from the 1911 census that the couple at Cumberland Street in 1911, didn't  seem to have a Joseph. Their other child, it would seem,  was a daughter. She is mentioned in a newspaper item by her married surname, Spence, but referenced as living with her father at 9 Cumberland Street. So all five of their children are accounted for (if Jack is actually John).
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 15:44 BST (UK)
To rule the Cumberland Street family in or out I would look for the births of the Children - is the mothers maiden name McCormick?

The children are
Thomas (1887)
John (1895)
James (1899)
Ernest (1902)

 


It's just a matter of actually doing research on them..... again easy to find!!

A simple search like this will find the kids.

Maybe you have already found them so if you have then let people know, it saves people trying to help you from using up their time finding what you've already found!
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Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 15:50 BST (UK)
He is the Joseph one born 1902

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01925/1745598.pdf


These have probably all been researched by the poster!

...and we know from the 1911 census that the couple at Cumberland Street in 1911, didn't  have a Joseph. There other child was a daughter. She is mentioned in a newspaper item by her married surname, Spence, but referenced as living with her father at 9 Cumberland Street. So all five of their children are accounted for (if Jack is actually John).



Thomas Campbell was a flex dresser and later had a fruit shop on the old lodge road then in 1911 he lived in 9 Cumberland street


So I thought this might be relevant!!
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Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 15:54 BST (UK)
It is relevant, and with the fact that the Cumberland Street Thomas didn't appear to have a child, Joseph, it , as said, seems to rule that Thomas out.

Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 15:55 BST (UK)
I didn't think the search picked up Mothers maiden names pre 1900?

Is it possible that Joseph gets renamed Ernest?

There is a John Campbell - mmn McCormick born 29 Dec 1894 as per GRONI
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 16:00 BST (UK)
Just doing the basic search throws up these!!




 Birth of JAMES CAMPBELL on 22 May 1904
Group Registration ID   4736269
SR District/Reg Area   Belfast
Sex   N/R
Mother's Birth Surname   MC CORMICK


 Birth of IRVINE CAMPBELL on 15 June 1906
Group Registration ID   362587
SR District/Reg Area   Belfast
Sex   Male
Mother's Birth Surname   MC CORMICK

 Birth of JOHN CAMPBELL on 14 March 1909
Group Registration ID   853033
SR District/Reg Area   Belfast
Sex   Male
Mother's Birth Surname   MC CORMICK

 Birth of IRVINE CAMPBELL on 15 June 1906
Group Registration ID   362587
SR District/Reg Area   Belfast
Sex   Male
Mother's Birth Surname   MC CORMICK

 Birth of CLEMENTS CAMPBELL on 30 January 1912
Group Registration ID   938098
SR District/Reg Area   Belfast
Sex   Male
Mother's Birth Surname   MC CORMICK

 Birth of DAVID CAMPBELL on 06 March 1915
Group Registration ID   1406587
SR District/Reg Area   Belfast
Sex   Male
Mother's Birth Surname   MC CORMICK
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 16:06 BST (UK)
But, until hardsocks takes their search back to basics, and does lots of cross referencing, we still can't be sure if the Thomas Campbell and Margaret McCormick/McCormack couple, was even 'their' Thomas, or if they are just another couple they have inadvertently woven into the web.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 16:08 BST (UK)
But, until hardsocks takes his search back to basics, and does lots of cross referencing, we still can't be sure if the Thomas Campbell and Margaret McCormick/McCormack couple, was even 'his' Thomas, or if they are just another couple he has inadvertently woven into the web.




Very very true!!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 16:11 BST (UK)
Maybe we should all go on a Mediterranean Cruise and come back in a few weeks after some research back in time has been done!   ;D
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 16:14 BST (UK)
Some threads on the Belfast Forum on this topic
http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=65224.0

http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=57330.0

I get the feeling that hardsocks knows this is the correct family - through family stories etc.

The link to the Joseph the teacher is evidently wrong and has thrown us off, but I think this part is probably correct - but we do need hardsocks to confirm!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 16:16 BST (UK)
The Old Lodge Road  family:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Court_Ward/Old_Lodge_Road/946929/

who are Episcopalian/CofI

The family at Cumberland Street in 1911 are Methodist.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 16:18 BST (UK)
Start with yourself and work backwards

Write down as much information as you already have about your parents, your grandparents and your grandparents' parents. Verify your sources as you go. You'll immediately see the gaps in your knowledge.


https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/free-family-history.html
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 16:22 BST (UK)
The Old Lodge Road  family:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Court_Ward/Old_Lodge_Road/946929/

I don't doubt you... ;D

I'm just wondering if there are 2 "parallel" families and these have been nailed together to form what has been posted!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 16:32 BST (UK)
The Thomas Campbell who married Margaret then married my grandmother Minnie McINTYRE IN 1917
they had 3 children Josephine 1917 David 1920 and then my father in 1924
1901 cencus 149 old lodge road Thomas Campbell fruit dealer.
1911 census 9 Cumberland street Thomas Campbell Flaxdresser he lived here until 1934 when he passed away Minnie Campbell (McIntyre) died in 1943 at the union hospital and was buried in knockbreda cemetery
the connection I made to Joseph Campbell school teacher was
Thomas Campbell Flaxdresser lived in upper meadow street
Josephine Campbell married Joseph McLaughlin from upper meadow street
Josephine McLaughlin was present at Joseph Campbells death at St Kilda Street
Annie Campbell lived with Josephine McLaughlin and was a witness at Thomas and Margarets wedding
Annie was Church of Ireland Epescoplian so was Thomas Campbell.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 16:41 BST (UK)
Quote
Josephine 1917 David 1920 and then my father in 1924   

Do their birth records, available via GRONI onlne (small charge), state their father was a Flaxdresser and/or that he lived at 9 Cumberland Street?

Who provided you with or how did you discover, the info (and in what format),  that the Thomas who married Minnie in 1917 was the same Thomas previously married to Margaret McCormick/McCormack.

It would be helpful to have a confirmed link between the 2 Thomas', to take away the doubts thrown up by the age, religion, occupation and address discrepancies.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 17:20 BST (UK)
Thimas Daughter margaret went to live in New Zeland and was going to sponser my father to go out ther.
IThomas son Jack i knew myself and was at his funeral in 1966 he left my father a house in his will
Thomass son Ernest(joseph)was in the north antrim harriers and a death notice was placed when Thomas died in 1934
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 17:31 BST (UK)
So Joseph is Ernest?? 
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 17:41 BST (UK)
Also, just found on an old thread by hardstock:

Quote
.   quote author=hardsocks link=topic=718705.msg5624474#msg5624474 date=1429544189]
Hi
Could any one help me. my aunt left Belfast to live in New Zealand in the 1920s.
Se married a man called Robert Spence they had a daughter called Catherine who
married David Treadwell and had a daughter *.
How would I find out when she left the UK and who she went out to.
anybody help
T Campbell


So would tie with my earlier comment that Thomas Campbell of 9 Cumberland Street, appeared to have had a daughter named Mrs Spence.

Do you have anything at all, though, that beyond doubt ties Thomas of Cumberland Street to being Thomas of Old Lodge Road, other than the forenames of the family groups in both 1901 and 1911 census (as religion and Thomas' occupation differ)? Unless you are suggesting, now, that Joseph/Ernest is the link.

It really is difficult to assist when you have so much more info available than you perhaps made clear earlier in the thread.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 17:42 BST (UK)
Yes
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 17:49 BST (UK)
Trying to find the death of Jane Stuart campbell wife of Joseph Campbell national school teacher who died in 1909 at st kilda street belfast last known child born in 1871.


any luck?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: Cwellan CoDown on Friday 14 September 18 18:05 BST (UK)
The John buried in 1966 along with Thomas and Margaret is therefore the son jack/john that hardsocks personally knew.

The connection to Upper Meadow Street, is however not proven as this Thomas (Flaxdresser) lived there in 1901 - there may be a family connection, but not an immediate one
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Dock_Ward/Upper_Meadow_Street/937851/

At which stage your Thomas was living on old lodge road.

I think the names (and number) of the children given in the 1911 census and the lack of another Thomas/Margaret/Thomas/Jack and James on the census on 1901 is enough to confirm (beyond reasonable doubt) that these are the same family especially as the younger son is born in Belfast, so they should be on the 1901 census?

The change of religion among protestant denominations seems reasonably common from my research - perhaps the wife was Church of Ireland and the husband Methodist, so they swapped between them, this alone doesn't suggest the families are not the same

A confirmation the Ernest in 1911 is the Joseph born in 1902 in old lodge road would be great, but in the absence of it I think we can assume they are the one and the same

Which leads us to who is Thomas's parents? -

We know his father was a labourer - from the census we can assume Thomas was born in the Co Down part of Belfast.
Are parish records online anywhere for this area?





Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 18:10 BST (UK)
Thats right
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: scotmum on Friday 14 September 18 18:32 BST (UK)
However, as Thomas, aged 24 and a Labourer, lived at 21 Danube Street, Belfast when he married in 1883, and stated his father, Joseph was a Labourer, there is still no certain link to any Joseph Campbell, teacher/schoolmaster.

In July 1883, a Mary Jane Campbell, aged 17,  whose brother, Thomas, was present, died at 31 Danube Street. Her father, according to Death Notice in newspaper, was a Joseph.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 18:34 BST (UK)
Phew!

Good to get everything sorted!
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 19:26 BST (UK)
The Thomas Campbell in upper meadow street in 1901 was a labourer not a flaxdresser.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 19:38 BST (UK)
Yes.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 20:11 BST (UK)
could the address 21  danube street be a error and it was 31
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 20:12 BST (UK)
Yes
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 20:19 BST (UK)
Therefore its the same Thomas in old lodge and cumberland street
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 20:20 BST (UK)
OK.
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 20:31 BST (UK)
I feel you are getting dored with the subject?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hallmark on Friday 14 September 18 20:39 BST (UK)
Haven't you got everything you need to piece the line together?
Title: Re: Death lookup please
Post by: hardsocks on Friday 14 September 18 20:49 BST (UK)
Thanks to every one who helped me
On my lookup