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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: seemex on Sunday 16 September 18 23:13 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for information on Ying Tchong ( Tchong being the family name ) He lived at 105 Upper Parliament Street and was listed on a passenger list as a Cafe Proprietor. He married a woman by the name Rose Turner ( alt Chewng or Cheung ) in 1944 in Liverpool. They had daughters, Beryl and maybe Frances. I was wondering if anyone has any info on them...maybe 1939 register, or other local listings of business including cafes and restaurants. Their address appears to be in an upscale neighborhood and they travelled 1st class on the ship. There may also have been other Tchong family members in Liverpool in the early 1900s. Maybe have been ships crews hired during the war years? Any ideas or assistance greatly appreciated.
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Just checking that the cafe was in Liverpool? Strangely there was also a cake shop/tea rooms at 105 Upper Parliament St Nottingham in 1925/6. (Some advertisements for staff, though it doesn't say who the proprietor was).
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I checked the passenger list and it definitely shows them as Liverpool. I did a Google Earth search and the address looks all residential today, but then it was almost 70 years ago so much could have changed. I did see that there was a same address at Nottingham, but that would be too far off.
To add to this...I see a marriage listed for Rose Turner and Ying or Jing Tchong in Liverpool, in 1944, 3rd quarter
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Can you post a snip with the details on the passenger ship please & what yr did they emigrate?
Just checking that the cafe was in Liverpool? Strangely there was also a cake shop/tea rooms at 105 Upper Parliament St Nottingham in 1925/6
This was prior to the marriage & would seem too coincidental with the address :-\
Annie
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I can't seem to get the "attachments and other options" to work. I had trouble posting tonight so may be a glitch right now. I'll try again in a little while. Maybe I can't add a .jpg clip here?
They travelled aboard the RMS Canton which left Southampton Mar 11 1949 for Hong Kong. The passenger list is on Ancestry.com They appeared to be relocating or returning to Hong Kong as their permanent home. I'm assuming the restaurant was in Liverpool as that is where they were married in 1944. I can't find an inbound passage so assume they lived in Liverpool prior to WW2
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You mention 1939 register but they will not be together, presumably, since they didn’t marry until 1944.
Do you have Rose’s details pre-marriage or are you asking for her birth, parents etc?
You have mentioned their daughter(s). We are not allowed to post names of persons who might still be living.
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London Gazette https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices
Tchong in Text searchfield returns 1 hit. Clicking on hit shd return page 330.
To view reason for listing, click on drop down menu in Page field and select page 314.
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I can't seem to get the "attachments and other options" to work.
You cannot do attachments on this board. If you want to include attachments post on another board.
Stan
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There's current activity on this site re. Tchong - http://siyigenealogy.proboards.com
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Did he also sometimes call himself Thomas Tchong as one travels in 1951 on the Chusan to Hongkong from London and his birth year is 1909 like Ying Tchong's birth year?
I thin there is also a possibility that the daughter(s) you mention are actually just one person renamed? Can you rule this out? Have you checked freebdm to see if you can pick up a Tchong birth with a maidename of Turner/Cheung ect
One girl born in 1844 and one born in 1845 is not a big window for one to be born in HongKong and the mother to be widowed and remarried in England
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Perhaps you could look at Turners from Hongkong living in England and see if there is some link to Rose?
Daisy Florence Turner was born in 1886 in Hongkong and
Dorothy Margaret Turner was born in 1892 in Hongkong.
Looking at marriages I think both these ladies married in Wandsworth so I think they are relatives to each other. Daisy I believe married a John Young and Dorothy a Walter Flexman.
Rose Turner was born in 1915? Could these ladies have been her Aunts?
Daisy Florence Turner lived in Lambeth district and I can see a Tchong birth reistered in just 1998 in the Lambeth district could be a coincidence or (since it seems to be a rare surname in England) a Turner/Tchong great grandchild??
A few things to prehaps look at?
Perhaps I am drawing at straws?
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Good leads, thank you, all worth checking
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You could firstly get the marriage certificate to see re occupation, address, father’s name etc.
September 1944 Liverpool South shows
Ying Tchong and Rose Turner
Ying Tchong and Rose Chewng
Also Tchong Ying with those variants.
There may be clues on the certificate.
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the 1944 marriage record has
Rose Turner to Jing Tehong - not Ying Tchong - or is the freebmd transcription a Mistranscription ??
ADDED - that is strange - put in marriage 1944 Rose Turner and it comes up
Tehong Jing 8b 196
put in Tehong - no result
put in Tchong and it comes up Ying Tchong to Rose Turner
Marriages Sep 1944 (>99%)
BRUCE George L Price Liverpool S. 8b 196 Scan available - click to view
CHEWNG Rose Ying Liverpool S. 8b 196 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
CHEWNG Rose Tchong Liverpool S. 8b 196 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
PRICE Gladys M Bruce Liverpool S. 8b 196 Scan available - click to view
TCHONG Ying Turner Liverpool S. 8b 196 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
TCHONG Ying Chewng Liverpool S. 8b 196 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
TURNER Rose Jing Liverpool S. 8b 196 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
TURNER Rose Tehong Liverpool S. 8b 196 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
YING Tchong Turner Liverpool S. 8b 196 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
YING Tchong Chewng Liverpool S. 8b 196 Scan available - click to viewAdditional information available - click to view
any one educate me please ??
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Thanks everyone. I think the Ying Tchong name is correct, and there are some mistranscriptions. The passenger list in 1949 on the RMS Canton looks clear and there are references to the name in Hong Kong. While the name "Tchong" is not overly common, it at least appears, whereas "Tehong" doesn't.
The Turner information is good and a 1915 birth date for Rose would be in line with his of 1909. The other Turner ladies could indeed be related. The name "Chewng" doesn't seem to make sense unless it was a previous marital name for Rose. I'm wondering now if his naturalization in the UK was one of convenience or necessity as they were already married in 1944. Maybe it was just something that would have been a good idea, all things considered and would have made future travel easier. I think sending for the 8b 196 doc might help.
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Perhaps you could look at Turners from Hongkong living in England and see if there is some link to Rose?
Daisy Florence Turner was born in 1886 in Hongkong and
Dorothy Margaret Turner was born in 1892 in Hongkong.
Looking at marriages I think both these ladies married in Wandsworth so I think they are relatives to each other. Daisy I believe married a John Young and Dorothy a Walter Flexman.
Rose Turner was born in 1915? Could these ladies have been her Aunts?
Daisy Florence Turner lived in Lambeth district and I can see a Tchong birth reistered in just 1998 in the Lambeth district could be a coincidence or (since it seems to be a rare surname in England) a Turner/Tchong great grandchild??
A few things to prehaps look at?
Perhaps I am drawing at straws?
I came up with a couple more names on the Turner women, Dorothy M Turner and a man named Percy on the 1939 register.
Interesting that there is still a Tchong as recent as 1998. It's an odd enough name that none should be ruled out as I would think they would have a connection.
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Naturalisation Certificate
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11881188
Not sure what info. it would deliver that you don't already know. Think I saw a cost of £27.40 to order?
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A couple of things strike me....the similarity in sound for "Chewng" and "Tchong" I'm helping a friend do some tracing here and it seems there were children adopted out. The Beryl Tchong, age 4, who left with Rose and Ying Tchong in 1949 on the RMS Canton for Hong Kong, was likely adopted by them, whether legally or some sort of informal arrangement, I don't know. I appears that Rose Tchong maybe had a maiden name of Turner. Ying Tchong may have been her second marriage. The first one might have been in Hong Kong ( maybe that's Chewng? ) It's complicated for sure. Ying Tchong was well enough off for them all to travel 1st Class on the Canton. As they married in 1944, her was probably in Liverpool prior to the war, and may have been established there.
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Rather than speculating, the marriage certificate should be consulted for names, occupations etc.
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The marriage certificate would also provide names of witnesses and maybe they can be traced too?
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Addresses of each of the couple too at time of marriage.
Annie
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Yes, it could give a lot of info. I wrote to ask if any of the family has ordered it so will see what they say
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Wonder if Rose Turner was in some way linked to the family of Rev Frederick Storrs Turner and
Sophia M. Harmer
If you check their family tree they have children listed as born in Hong Kong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Storrs-Turner
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New info from Tchong-Turner Marriage July 1, 1944. Liverpool, South
"Ying Tchong" is also listed on the certificate as "Tchong Ying" 36 years old and a Cafe Proprietor.
His father was "Wing Ying", occupation Master grocer ( deceased )
The bride is Rose Turner ( formerly Cheung ) age 29 ( formerly the wife of Arnold Turner from who she obtained a divorce )
Her father was Thomas Cheung ( deceased ) Father's occupation was Corporation Inspector ( Tramways )
The couple lived at 40 Huskisson Street, Liverpool
The couple left for Hong Kong in 1949 aboard the RMS Canton with an adopted daughter Beryl. Looking for info on any of these people
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Wonder if Rose Turner was in some way linked to the family of Rev Frederick Storrs Turner and
Sophia M. Harmer
If you check their family tree they have children listed as born in Hong Kong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Storrs-Turner
It seems Turner was a married name ( husband was Arnold Turner ) She was "Cheung" before that.
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Rather than speculating, the marriage certificate should be consulted for names, occupations etc.
Here's a copy of the marriage certificate
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Can you post a snip with the details on the passenger ship please & what yr did they emigrate?
Just checking that the cafe was in Liverpool? Strangely there was also a cake shop/tea rooms at 105 Upper Parliament St Nottingham in 1925/6
This was prior to the marriage & would seem too coincidental with the address :-\
Annie
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Another Hong Kong forum for you to put an enquiry on?
https://gwulo.com/forum/2
gwulo.com
Thomas Cheung - Corporation Inspector (Tramways), was that an inspector in Liverpool?
Liverpool Corporation Tramways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Corporation_Tramways
Wing Ying - master grocer - did he employ workers? where I wonder?
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Our assumption is that "Corporation Inspector" refers to Liverpool Corporation and "Tramways" being the name it was known by prior to that. We've searched Gwulo but haven't posted there yet. I've searched the archives of South China Morning post and North China Herald and other than their being a part of the passenger arrivals on the RMS Canton, they just seem to disappear. Since they made the trip in 1949 it's doubtful they would have ventured to the mainland. With his recent British citizenship their status may have been in question by by a communist government. The passenger list shows "Hong Kong" as the "place of future permanent residence" so they were not making the trip as visitors. It would be interesting to find out the name of the Cafe where he was proprietor.
As for "Master Grocer" I did find a passenger/crew manifest that I think may have been hired crew by Blue Funnel or some other, but almost all were listed as "Grocer"
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Do you know if the family remained in Hong Kong, never returning to U.K.?
I don’t quite understand what information you are searching - before or after their marriage.
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Trying to find out what happened to them. They disappeared into thin air after arriving in HK! Thought maybe if we could find out more about their time in Liverpool, it might lead to clues about where they ended up. There is no sign that they ever returned to UK. The adopted daughter may still be alive and would have siblings or half siblings
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We are not allowed to post much information about 1939 register.
Have you tried searching for both versions of the name - Tchong and Ying?
Rose Ying is in Liverpool Electoral Register at Huskisson Street in 1945.
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Yes, we just found that one too, but no sign of what happened to her husband or daughter. There is also an Evelyn Abraham in #9 Huskisson Street ( there was a witness, D G Abraham on their marriage in 1944 ) could be same neighbour family, or someone they knew? Huskisson Street looks like a good area, so she may still have been reasonably well off or at least comfortable
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Also the term "Grocer" as the occupation Ying Tchong's father looks like maybe a catch-all for many imported Chinese workers. I found a manifest where virtually everyone was listed as a "Grocer" These are all from Canada, although there is a "Wong Ying" that might fit. I just show it as an example
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Yes, we just found that one too, but no sign of what happened to her husband or daughter. There is also an Evelyn Abraham in #9 Huskisson Street ( there was a witness, D G Abraham on their marriage in 1944 ) could be same neighbour family, or someone they knew? Huskisson Street looks like a good area, so she may still have been reasonably well off or at least comfortable
Have you tried to find out about the other person in 1939?
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Do you mean C V Whitehead, the other witness?
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No the one living with Rose.
Sorry, I thought you said you had just found the information.
As I wrote earlier, searching 1939 with the surnames Tchong or Ying shows a likely match. Do a general search with no place.
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I'm sorry....I misunderstood. Yes there's a 1939 Register for Rose Ying at 40 Huskisson.We've checked the others at the same number and can\t find a connection. The closest thing is the Abraham in #9 who could have been related to the one who was their marriage witness
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I can’t find 40 Huskisson Street in 1939 on Ancestry.
Are you saying that you have Rose there in 1939?
I found a different Rose then and thought it may be her.
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I'm sorry....I misunderstood. Yes there's a 1939 Register for Rose Ying at 40 Huskisson.We've checked the others at the same number and can\t find a connection. The closest thing is the Abraham in #9 who could have been related to the one who was their marriage witness
I can’t see any other Rose Ying using FindMyPast either ::)
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Again I have to apologize! I've been at the computer far too long and I'm getting mixed up with the Yings and Tchongs and also the various documents. I see now...the 1939 showing Rose Ying ( Turner ) which was likely her exe's name ( Arnold Turner ) at Bloomsbury Ln, Altrincham. I guess she was living as Mrs Ying although they don't seem to get married until 1944. According to the marriage certificate she's trimmed a few years off her age as it shows 29 in 1944 ( bn 1915 ) and the 1939 Register shows her born in 1908, unless this is two different people with coincidental spouses etc. But where is Tchong Ying? Maybe away on a ship? Merchant navy?
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In 1939 register, entries are amended after marriage so the 1939 name is shown and crossed out with the later married name written above.
So in 1939, Rose would be Rose Turner.
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Yes, of course. You're right. They updated the 1939 record for a number of years, so that new married name "Ying" would have been the amended name in 1944. So she was at that address in Altrincham in 1939, presumably still married but the husband wasn't there. I see another Turner, bn in 1875, maybe her mother in law?
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Could Arnold Turner have been away with WW2 1939?
I'm thinking Wing Ying father of Tchong Ying may not have even been in England, he may have equally been in HongKong?
I'm wondering if this Ah Shing Ying born 1911 living in Liverpool was a relative?
There was also a Yuk Ah Ying that went to Hong Kong in 1953 on the Cylops? Same person? Maybe?
There was also a Ah Ying interned at Stanley Camp in Hong Kong during WW2 according to Gwulo, this might was he considered a british national?
Could this have been the Ah Ying off the Ajax in 1841 Liverpool to Singapore?
Was Ah Ying an umarried man heading home to his parents in Hongkong via Singapore??
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I think Arnold Turner could have been away with the war. The marriage to Ying states that she had obtained a divorce from Turner but we have no paperwork for that.
As for Wing Ying ( the father ) he was deceased but again, we don't know where or when that happened or what his status was as far as nationality.
We know that Ying Tchong naturalized in 1948 but his entitlement may have come rom his marriage to Rose in 1944. Certainly the bulk of Chinese Merchant Mariners were repatriated to China after the war, also mostly against their will. Many were apparently snatched up and left wives and children behind.
Tchong Ying had risen above somehow, as he's listed as a cafe proprietor, and the fact that they made their passage to HK in a first class cabin, sets him apart from most of his countrymen.
He was said to have been born in Canton, and had been married before ( in China ) but his wife had passed away. He is listed as such ( widower ) on the marriage certificate.
As for other Chinese names, it's anyone's guess. The fact that we switch given and surnames on many documents, whether by oversight or whatever, makes it very difficult to separate Wing Yings from Ying Wings etc. I've also learned that the "Ah" used in many names is in many cases, little more than a salutation like Mr.
I really think that the secret lies partially in finding the restaurant. Maybe local directories like Kelly's may reveal some info but I haven't found the correct years yet.
Finally, we believe that the adopted daughter, Beryl Chong that went with them to Hong Kong in 1949, was born to another Chinese, a merchant seaman by the name Shing Lam ( or Lam Shing ) He married a local woman, Mary D'Agostino in 1947. Mary, unwedded in 1944, is said to have given up a female child named Beryl, and that the child had been taken by the adopted parents to Hong Kong. They later had a son, and married in 1947, following up with several more children.
It is rumored that the adoption was facilitated within the Chinese community. There were several influential Chinese in Liverpool who worked with Blue Funnel and took care of the liaisons between crew and the shipping companies. Kwok Fong, is one name and possibly Zhay Woo that we're looking into.
The big stumbling block is the naming situation. It's so hard to know who was who. Which is Wing and which is Wong? :)
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Ultimately it would be good to find Rose Ying and TChong Lings burial place/records as I think they would be deceaced ....
Finding Beryl though would be hard, as a living person her privacy is hers to give up?
There is a Wing Ying Mansion (apartments) in 8 Soares Avenue, Mong Kok, Hong Kong ... Built Year, 1964.
Wouldn't be amazing if it was named after the Wing Ying here and built by his son!
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This is very difficult.
You now have to look for...
Arnold Turner with mother Ruth. There is one in 1911.
There does not seem to be a marriage for Arnold and Rose in U.K.
There is possibly a living child in 1939.
Is there a death for Ruth?
You thought initially there were two children. Any reason?
I am assuming that this is a search for an unknown relative. Is that right as you seem to have no knowledge of the family other than names.
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Apologies- I missed your reply #44 with additional information.
I have found the relevant birth, thank you.
I also saw the other forum post. It does seem now (as we can’t find any records) that Rose was also perhaps from Hong Kong and married Arnold Turner there.
Do you think that is the case?
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I think that's a possibility she was born in Hong Kong or Canton. Her last name was originally Cheung, so she could have come to UK before the war with her family, but again we're faced with the Chinese name situation and because there were so many that were imported to work on the ships, it's hard to know. Many, as I said, came to Liverpool, formed relationships with local women and had children in England. Probably a lot didn't go through formal marriages so it's a guess what sort of status the children ended up having. The ones who were born in UK from those marriages, legal or otherwise, may have been given status by birth? Not sure how it was done then.
I think Arnold Turner and his family are not important other than as a possible link to his wife Rose. It does seem that Rose Ying was back in Liverpool in 1945 as she shows on electors list, but no sign of her husband or daughter
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As you say Arnold and family are not important but if he was English and there had been an English marriage and divorce then he would have some significance.
As we can’t find either then was Rose really married; is that her mother in law; did the ceremony and the divorce take place in Hong Kong etc.
The child and husband would not of course appear on the electoral list.
There were no electoral lists during the war so she won’t appear pre marriage.
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Wondering about this abbreviation NHA and circled date on the 1939 Register. Rose married Ying on July 1, 1944. Would this be a misprint? and does anyone know what "NHA" stand for?
Maybe "New ___ Added"? Maybe the date that the new marriage data was added to the register?
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I would think the marriage date is just an error.
At first I thought NHA might be a reference to the National Health which the registers were used for but I doubt it somehow.
There is a thread here - no mention of your annotation though. Maybe try posting there and reference this thread just in case people start wanting to find Rose ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=741824.0
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Wondering about this abbreviation NHA and circled date on the 1939 Register. Rose married Ying on July 1, 1944. Would this be a misprint? and does anyone know what "NHA" stand for?
Maybe "New ___ Added"? Maybe the date that the new marriage data was added to the register?
A list of codes can be found here:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts
Date would be when the Register was altered. The year should be accurate.
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Thanks really helpful cd. NHA = Liverpool. :) so it is definitely the right lady.
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Thanks :California Dreamin" and "Heywood" and all others. I knew someone on here would have the answers!
So now we have another document we can check off as accurate. It makes total sense with the date being a little later. It would have taken some time to make the alteration to the register.
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Ultimately it would be good to find Rose Ying and TChong Lings burial place/records as I think they would be deceaced ....
Finding Beryl though would be hard, as a living person her privacy is hers to give up?
There is a Wing Ying Mansion (apartments) in 8 Soares Avenue, Mong Kok, Hong Kong ... Built Year, 1964.
Wouldn't be amazing if it was named after the Wing Ying here and built by his son!
Yes, wouldn't that be something. It's hard to find info on Hong Kong Chinese from that era now as not much was reported in SCMP etc on what local Chinese did.
I'll check Happy Valley records and see if anything turns up