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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Cathy53 on Monday 17 September 18 14:42 BST (UK)
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Hi this is my first post, I thought I was doing quite well on my paternal side but I have now come across a certificate that has got me completely confused. I found my paternal grandparents marriage certificate on SP quite a while ago so had been working backwards using the info on it.
James Johnstone Scoular age 27 married Catherine Sangster on 1/06/1923 in South Leith. Stated on cert is parents of Catherine are James Sangster (works foreman) and Elizabeth Sangster ms Pringle.
In the last few days I thought I would look at Catherine’s birth and the only one I can find is Catherine born on 27/12/1901 (in right date range) to Robert Sangster and Catharine Sangster ms Christie. Robert is a marine stoker. I also looked at 1911 census and I think I have the right Catherine living with James and Bessie Sangster as niece border! On census James is a candlemaker and on this census states married with no children.
On James death certificate 16/07/1953 states widow of Elizabeth Pringle and that he is a tallow melter foreman. Informant is James Sangster (son) but on census 1911 it has no children.
I am not sure now if I should just go with the information on marriage certificate, Catherine died in England so I don’t think parents info would be on her death certificate. I would appreciate any advice on this. Thank you.
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Welcome to Rootschat ;)
You may want to check the 1939 Register for her DoB?
Annie
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Thank you Rosinish. On the marriage certificate it states her age as 21 so I assumed birth date was right. Where would I find 1939 reg for dob. Thanks.
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Her birth is given as 27 Dec 1902 (a yr out nothing to worry about) i.e. looks like the correct birth.
Edit to add, her birth wouldn't have been registered until early 1902 so may have been mixed up :-\
Annie
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Hi Rosinish
On SP it is under 1902 births when you search but on the actual cert it is the first on page and states 27th December 1901, the next entry is 1902. My worry is it is not the same parents as on her marriage certificate.
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Have you discounted Catherine Sangster whose birth was registered in Cramond on 1902?
There doesn't seem to be a marriage of Robert Sangster to Catherine Christie in the index at Scotland's People. Or a death of a Catherine Sangster or Christie.
If James was married twice and had children by another wife, the 1911 census would not show them because they are not the children of the wife to whom he was married at that time. This might explain why there was a son to sign the death certificate even though there were no children listed in that census.
James and Bessie were both aged 41 in 1911, so were born about 1869/1870 if those ages are accurate. They were married in 1896 in South Leith. However I can't find a death of Bessie Pringle or Sangster. I see that James was widowed when he died, so Bessie must have died between the 1911 census and 1953. However there isn't a likely death in England either.
On the birth certificate of Catherine, daughter of Robert Sangster and Catherine Christie, where and when does it say that her parents were married?
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Death
SANGSTER, ELIZABETH
Aged 74
1942
685/8 225
Leith
PRINGLE, ELIZABETH
Aged 74
1942
685/8 225
Leith
Debra :)
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Bingo! My curiosity just got the better of me (and you owe me several cups of coffee!).
I had a hunch ....
James Sangster, son of James Sangster and Agnes Glennie, married Bessie Pringle in 1896.
In 1901 Robert Sangster, 27; Catherine Sangster, 26; Annie Sangster, 5; and James Sangster, 1 were in Leith North. In 1911 Robert Sangster, 36, Jessie Ann Sangster, 25; James Sangster, 11 and Alex Sangster, 1, were in North Leith, as were James Sangster, 41; Bessie Sangster, 41; and Catherine Sangster, 9.
Catherine Sangster or Christie died in Edinburgh in 1907, aged 37. (This did not come up when I searched for a death using both surnames, but I got her as Sangster and subsequently also as Christie.)
Robert Sangster, marine stoker, widower, of Leith, married his cousin Jessie Ann Glennie (in a double wedding with her sister Jeannie) in Ellon in 1909. His parents were .... James Sangster and Agnes Glennie.
So James Sangster, husband of Bessie Pringle, was the brother of Robert Sangster, husband of Catherine Christie and then Jessie Ann Glennie.
I speculate that James and Bessie more or less adopted his brother's children James and Catherine after the death of their mother, and that Catherine may not even have known that she was their niece rather than their daughter. It's harder to account for James jr describing himself as James' son, because he was still with his father in 1911 and must have known that it was Robert, not James, who was his father.
Any thoughts, anyone?
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Hi Forfarian
I have discounted birth in Cramond parents are William Sangster and Mary ms Knowles.
I could not find a marriage either for Robert Sangster and Catherine Christie but on Catherine’s birth states their marriage is 12 January 1899 Edinburgh. Catharine Christie died on 21st December 1906 in the Royal Maternity hospital Edinburgh.Robert remarries to Jessie Ann Glennie. On Robert’s death cert 3rd September 1934 widower of Catherine Christy and Jessie Glennie.
James Sangster did not marry twice on his death cert 16th July 1953 states widow of Elizabeth Pringle. Elizabeth died 10th March 1942.
My quandary is should I be going down Sangster/Christie line as per birth cert or carry on with the Sangster/Pringle line as per marriage which I had been doing.
I am sure that James and Robert were brothers as the parents appear to be the same on the certs that I have.
Edited thank you Forfarian it took me so long to reply as I had to print off your questions but you got to the answer before I had finished my typing. I thought it may be that they had brought her up as their own. Would you advice I should now go down the Sangster/Christie route as being her true parents. I have learned a good lesson to double check now instead of taking the info from one cert, have spent so much time/money on Pringle.
Thank you so much for the extra info you have been fantastic.
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Forfarian, your speculation does look feasible/understandable!
Glad it's not only me who sometimes can't find info. when inserting both surnames although I'm sure it's because I've inadvertantly ticked the wrong box i.e. female v male ::)
Annie
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Thank you to both Forfarian and Rosinish for the help you have given me this afternoon. Having been a member for a few years (only reading the forums) this was the first time I had asked for help and you came up trumps. Thank you for taking the time.
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Glad it was useful, but can I please make a wee suggestion for future reference? When you post a query, include as much information as you can, and in particular say which certificates you already have and what they all tell you. That saves people spending time going over ground you have already covered.