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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: chempat on Tuesday 18 September 18 19:41 BST (UK)
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James Harkliss/Harkiss marries Elizabeth Middleton in 1864 in Dalkeith. He is a tailor, age 21. His father George is a gardener and his Mother was previously Jane Hogarth.
In subsequent censuses he is from Newbattle or Dalkeith.
Can anyone see his birth or him with family in 1851 or 1861?
His death information is from Midlothian and Terbles District Lunatic Asylum giving his father as James, and an unknown mother.
Are any of the details of his parents correct?
Thank-you
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I think they are down as Harkins in 1861. Living at Bennets Close, Dalkeith. Father Jas is age 59, a Labourer born Dalkeith. Mother Jane is age 62 born Dalkeith and son Jas is age 17, a Tailor, born Dalkeith.
Isobel
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That would mean that he gives the wrong name for his father on his marriage.
I had wondered if they were his grandparents, but probably not quite old enough?
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Same family seem to appear as Herkus in 1851 living in Duddingston. Father James is a Roof & Drain Tilemaker Journeyman.i note that Findmypast has the 1861 family noted above listed as Harkies (Harkins is from Ancestry).
Isobel
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Jane Herkes of Bennets Close dies in 1866 age 65.
According to her son Jas Herkes, her husband is James Herkes, her Father was James Herkes, and her mother was Marion Herkes previously Horseburgh.
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The wife of James Herkus appears to be Jean Muir ( checking the births of the children recorded in the 1851 census against Familysearch).
Isobel
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There is a Marion Horseburgh who marries Thomas Muir in 1794 in Dalkeith, which is interesting.
but what about George Herkis and Jane Hogarth?
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There is a Marion Horseburgh who marries Thomas Muir in 1794 in Dalkeith, which is interesting.
but what about George Herkis and Jane Hogarth?
Looks like he was illegitimate, used his g/mothers m/s on his marriage as a 'cover-up' & it would be easy to mix up Hogarth/Horseburgh (I think) at age 21 as he wouldn't be asked that question until that day?
Annie
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Any suggestions for a birth?
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Chempat,
I searched with no luck on a baptism (OPRs) as Statutory Reg. didn't begin in Scotland until 1855
Annie
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It seems a big coincidence that James Herkus, son of James Herkus and Jane Muir was a Tailor in 1861, the same occupation as the James who married Elizabeth Middleton in 1864. He is also the correct age and was born in Dalkeith.
Some other questions - what became of James, son of James and Jane (Muir) if it wasn’t him who married Elizabeth Middleton? Why is their no obvious death of Jane Harkiss ( or variants) nee Muir?
Isobel
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Good questions Isobel.
James Harkliss/Harkiss marries Elizabeth Middleton in 1864 in Dalkeith. He is a tailor, age 21. His father George is a gardener and his Mother was previously Jane Hogarth.
Were either of his parents deceased on the 1864 marriage? (Forgot Jane died 1866) Was George alive on the marriage 1864?
It seems strange the marriage giving parents as George & Jane Hogarth/(Horseburgh)? & the death giving husband as James
Jane Herkes of Bennets Close dies in 1866 age 65.
According to her son Jas Herkes, her husband is James Herkes, her Father was James Herkes, and her mother was Marion Herkes previously Horseburgh.
What was husband James' occ. on Jane's death?
It does look as though James was illegitimate?
Annie
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On Jane's death, James was a labourer.
On the marriage in 1864, neither parent is recorded as deceased.
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Possible death for James Harkiss Snr in Dalkeith in 1884 age 80. Might be worth checking to see who the informant was and to find out what the name of his wife was.
Isobel
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Chempat,
Any clues with witnesses names on 1864 marriage & what were the addresses of any/all concerned (if given)?
Annie
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This is the suggested family in 1851 in Portobello:
James Herkus 48
Jane Herkus 50
David Herkus 18
Margaret Herkus 16
Jane Herkus 12
Jennet Herkus 9
James Herkus 7
I can see baptisms (Hercus/Muir) for Jane and Jennet, but not the others.
Oh, Margaret as Herclus. David as Herkus. And James as Herkus.
In which case, if James is baptised as son of James and Jean/Jane and is not illegitimate, why does he invent a father George when he marries?
(James Herkies at the Free Church, Dalkeith,1843, son of James Herkies, brickmaker and Jean Muir.)
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Marriage witnesses in 1864 Jane Middleton and John Baptie (??)
James' normal residence : Dalkeith.
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James Harkiss death in 1884, widower of Jane Muir, informant James Harkiss of Tabernacle Close Dalkeith (death at Wilson Close East, Dalkeith.)
James's (snr) father was David Harkiss, general labourer, mother not known.
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Thanks Chempat...
Witnesses & addresses (non existant) not a lot of help ::)
It may be worth trying to find the sibling David who's on the 1851 census (less common forename & surname combined) to see what he has to say if he marries ??? ;D
Annie
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Did James sign on his marriage or was it his mark 'x'?
Just a thought but...
From looking at the 1851 census which looks perfectly legitimate is it possible (on his marriage) for the person above or below his entry in the Register to have a father George which has been mistranscribed onto his details on the cert. ???
Can you look at the other entry (for father's name/occ.) on the same pg & is James 1st or 2nd on the pg as the other entry (not showing above or below) may be a George?
Annie
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Did James sign on his marriage or was it his mark 'x'?
Just a thought but...
From looking at the 1851 census which looks perfectly legitimate is it possible (on his marriage) for the person above or below his entry in the Register to have a father George which has been mistranscribed onto his details on the cert. ???
Can you look at the other entry (for father's name/occ.) on the same pg & is James 1st or 2nd on the pg as the other entry (not showing above or below) may be a George?
Annie
Says they both signed and the entry is top of page so George does not appear to have come from elsewhere.
David Harkess marries in 1857, son of James Harkess, brickmaker, and Jean Muir.
Thank-you all. Gone to bed. Work tomorrow.
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Says they both signed and the entry is top of page so George does not appear to have come from elsewhere.
David Harkess marries in 1857, son of James Harkess, brickmaker, and Jean Muir.
The page you have only contains 2 entries i.e. the entry prior may have had a father named George?
It was only a suggestion as to where 'George' crept in?
I don't know how those details were recorded regarding dates/where in the same parish etc. but seems a possible explanation?
Weddings usually took place at the bride's home or elsewhere rather than in a Church & notes taken then added later i.e. errors occured & it seems to me to have been a clerical error or transcription error re 'George'?
Annie
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The wedding did indeed take place at the bride's home.
Do not know if there is an easy way to see the previous entry, no obvious arrow (requesting more money - this is my son-in-law's family, never done Scottish records in such details before).
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I noticed that an 18 year old James Harkiss also died in 1884 in Dalkeith. As he matched the age of a possible son of James Harkiss and Elizabeth Middleton I have checked his death certificate for you. He is indeed their son and his address is Tabernacle Close, which matches the address for the James Harkiss who was the informant on James snr’s death certificate. His father James ( a Tailor) was the informant. He died on 1st Sept 1884, was single, and his trade was Iron Moulder.
Not sure why James should have lied about his parents on his marriage certificate, but I think he is almost certainly the son of James Harkiss and Jane Muir ( born in 1843 in Dalkeith). I suspect Jane was the daughter of George Muir and Marion Horsburgh who married in Dalkeith in 1794.
Isobel
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Not sure why James should have lied about his parents on his marriage certificate, but I think he is almost certainly the son of James Harkiss and Jane Muir ( born in 1843 in Dalkeith). I suspect Jane was the daughter of George Muir and Marion Horsburgh who married in Dalkeith in 1794.
I think you may have hit on the answer - he was muddling the names of his parents and grandparents - grandfather's given name, father's surname, mother's given name, grandmother's maiden surname.
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I noticed that an 18 year old James Harkiss also died in 1884 in Dalkeith. As he matched the age of a possible son of James Harkiss and Elizabeth Middleton I have checked his death certificate for you. He is indeed their son and his address is Tabernacle Close, which matches the address for the James Harkiss who was the informant on James snr’s death certificate. His father James ( a Tailor) was the informant. He died on 1st Sept 1884, was single, and his trade was Iron Moulder.
Thank-you for doing that - looks conclusive.
I was not happy at what looked like a rather large assumption as to mixing up of names, but having the same address is a lot better.
I had even managed to find the death of a Jane Hoggarth (widow, age not recorded) relative a George Herkis, gardener, in 1854 in Inveresk, which looked very good. (Horsburgh had looked a long way from Hogarth).
Pat